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 Religious Math

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NickTheNick
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PostSubject: Religious Math   Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:39 am

No, we are not here to calculate how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.

What we are here to calculate is how religions will spread dynamically, not just within the players cities, but across borders to other players too. Religions should spread in a way that they are geographically contiguous, meaning they don't randomly appear in pockets around the globe, but instead exist in regions across a planet.

Also, I would like to add that we don't rip this straight off of Civilization, as we have already done so many of the game's features like that (or at least to begin with).

So how do you guys propose we implement this?

EDIT: I had an idea for how it would work, but I wanted to see what you guys would say first. However, I changed my mind, so here it is.

The resting point of each religion represents the point at which they stop growing. It is based on their conversion and the conversion of all the other religions in the SC.

For example:

Holyism has a Conversion of 2. Confusionism has a Conversion of 1. The equation is:

Conversion of Religion / Total Conversion of SC = Resting Point of Religion
or
2/3 = Resting Point = 66%

This means that Holyism will continue to grow until 66% of the population of the SC it is in is Holyist. All religions, no matter their conversion, grow at 0.1% of the total population of the SC per second.

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AwesomeSiebren
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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:12 am

How about:
If in peace with other country, 55% chance
If neutral, 25 to 45% only when near country
If at war 0% when war because of religion, otherwise 5 to 15% only when near

When a "random" event occurs (someone of religion saves an emperor, then there is a 75% chance.)
This is kust a basic cpncept, and chances can vary for the events.
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Immortal_Dragon
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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:26 am

Well, if a nation has a religion prohibited/banned, then its resting point should be a lot lower if not nonexistent in SCs of that nation. That would be if a lot of currency was put towards this. Vice versa if a religion is encouraged, its resting point should be given a bonus.

Happiness could be a factor here as well, and serve to mitigate the effects of discouraging/encouraging religions. If the population in Nation A's SC is unhappy with the government, and that government is discouraging Holyism in a way that the resting point would be at 55% rather than 66% (major investment), the unhappiness would put something of a modifier that put the new resting point at say, 59% with low unhappiness at say 15%?

In reverse, a largely happy population would follow an encouraged religion and not follow a discouraged one.

In terms of wars, how would the game know if a war is because of religion?

Growth rate, maybe if an SC has a religious building for that religion, maybe it gives a bonus, say 0.4% of total population?
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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:48 am

Why don't we just use Civ's syt– Nevermind.

That system sounds good, but doesn't seem to take missionaries, etc. into consideration.

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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:15 pm

What about missionaries being a unit which player can send to try spreading they religion to other nations, which increases number of other nations converted citizens.
Missionares can, like other units to be destroyed by nations what dont want to be converted, or are in war with you.
Also, there should be ''layers'' option on minimap, which could also enable to see what religions are adopted on what places. Like minimap showing teritories, but when ''Religions'' layer is enabled, it would show religions.
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PostSubject: ;p   Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:31 pm

That good sir, is an awedome idea.
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WilliamstheJohn
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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:46 pm

AwesomeSiebren wrote:
That good sir, is an awedome idea.

Thanks dude.
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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:20 pm

I think Nick is a veteran in the grand strategy field, and the first idea for any grand strategy fan when it comes to conversion would be missionaries, since so many games use them (Civ 4, Total war games, Europa universalis etc). There must be a reason why he hasn't bothered even mentioning them in the first place.

Also, missionaries aren't the only way of spreading religion. Religion will also spread via its followers, for example.
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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:33 pm

I think he was just considering the natural growth of the religion and once we've sorted that we can move on to factors, which include missionaries.
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NickTheNick
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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:18 pm

Ooh, good to see so many responses. Also good to see no flame wars on how religion is stupid and should give a -200% penalty to Research.

AwesomeSiebren, what are those percent chances for? Chance to spread to another city? Another country? You need to be more specific.

Immortal_Dragon, banning a religion reduces its Conversion in all of your SC's by 1. Encouraging religions isn't an option. Instead, you can build temples for the religion in an SC, and it will boost the conversion of the religion in that SC by 1. Happiness can't affect religious growth and resting points, because religion already affects happiness through tolerance.

Jacob, missionaries aren't included. Instead, the player will build temples in their cities, which will increase conversion, and that will imply the effect of missionaries.

@WilliamsTheJohn, Tarpy, and Inca: Missionaries are implied with temples. The reason this is so I will explain below...

So I got an idea for how religions will spread.

When a religion reaches its resting point, it will stop growing. Whenever a religion reaches its resting point, it is put in this state where every second it runs a chance of spreading to a neighbouring SC. This chance is doubled if a trade route or road or rail exists between the two cities:

Base chance of spreading to other SC's = 0.05% per second * Conversion of religion
If connected by a trade route, road, rail, or other = Double the chance per second

So, to use Holyism as an example, let's say there is a neighbouring city connected by a road. The chance, every second, that Holyism would spread to that SC will look like.

0.05% * 2 = 0.10%
Connected by route = True
0.10% * 2 = 0.20% per second

This means that Holyism, as long as it sits at its resting point, runs a 0.2% chance every second to spread to a neighbouring SC. When a religion spreads to a neighbouring SC, it always gets a default foothold of 0.1% of the population.

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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:29 pm

I really like the way that works Nick, good job.
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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:04 pm

I must say, that idea sounds like genius to me.
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penumbra espinosa
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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:47 pm

sounds cool, makes me remember Sins of a Solar Empire, although, you spread culture instead of religion only, it was a good way of non forced conquering...
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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:00 am

Idea looks great Nick!
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NickTheNick
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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:06 pm

So, just to define what I mean by "neighbouring" SC's, it just means any SC whose borders are touching yours, OR that you have a trade route to, OR that you have a transport route to (road, rail, etc.) This is the best way I can think of of specifying to the computer what "neighbouring" means.

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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:56 pm

I have an idea. In times of potentially apocalyptic disasters, religion would have a conversion boost. If holyism was a big religion, then it could take over the world. However, if holyism was a small cult, there would be competition among other religions.
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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:34 pm

Too subjective. It would be hard to define "time of apocalypse" to the computer, and there might be just as many people who lose there belief in their religion with an apocalypse as those who gain it, so I don't think that effect would make sense.

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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:56 am

Well, if the end was near, wouldn't it be nice knowing that there was a afterlife? Also, what I meant by "potentially apocalyptic" was something like a meteor, or a pathogen, or a keystone species was wiped out, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:02 am

It could also just as easily make people think that if a God existed (or whatever their beliefs), he/she/it wouldn't let that happen. What's more, there are too many grey areas when defining apocalypses (apocalii?). Just listing them isn't specific enough. What's more, if it gave a bonus to all religions, they would all cancel each other out. If it only gave bonuses to specific religion(s), that wouldn't make sense, because as I said it could have many effects with many different outcomes. There's nothing saying that an apocalypse makes only the dominant religion spread faster.

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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:53 am

Oh. I understand now. Thanks!
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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:50 pm

I have an idea for religions, Infact I made a Very simple looking Hud for it.

Allow me to explain.

The Octagonal thing to the left of the Name and Description will be the editor, Using Four basic polygons to edit it, Triangles, Squares, Pentagons, and Hexagons, This will allow the simple creation of religious pieces, like the Cross. You can use the colors at the bottom to add colors to it and the circle in between the Blue and yellow to make your own colors, using a color wheel.

The name and description will be mostly what it is named, you get to make the Name and the Description.

Now the bottom part of this is the most important, It includes details of the religion and religious ideas.

Monotheistic and Polytheistic determines how many Deities or Gods that your religion will have.

Monotheistic will allow you to name your God, and a brief description.

Polytheistic will allow you to choose how many gods and deities you have, including custom for Hindu-levels of Gods.

The check boxes to the right of that is the most important part of the religions. I will give a basic description and effect of them

Marriages will be just like in real life, One man of a species marries one Female of a species and they are bassicly wed for life. (If your species is Asexual this option will be blacked out)
Effects: +10 Happiness to species, -5% fertility of species. (because they would be Belguiming eachother)

Prayer will allow the people of your species to pray, simple as that.
Effects: +5% Conversion power, -5% Building speed.

Sacrifices will allow your species to sacrifice other species that you have made as prisoners, or you sacrifice animals to please your god(s)
Effects: +10% Taxes, +5% Attack damage, -10% conversion power.

Religious heads will bassicly be people like a Pope, or a Priest, allowing faster spread of religions.
Effects: +10% conversion power, -10% Taxes. (Money goes to Religious Leaders)

Holy books will allow you to spread your religion easier, and will allow more literacy.
Effects: +5% conversion speed, -5% Research speed. (people will assume the book as fact)

Of course you can take every effect, of course you can just take one, but hey, it allows a smaller amount of immersion to add to your game, One more idea is Heretics and Heathens.

Heretics will be variations on your religion, spawned randomly, and having different names. When its a Heretic to your religion it will have a small yellow H is bellow the religion symbol.

Heathens will be any other religion, that is not related to your religion, it will be represented by a small red H bellow the religion symbol.

Effects of these will be this.
Same religion: +10 relation
Heretic religion: -10 relation
Heathen religion: -20 religion.

Of course once you make a religion, it will regard the beliefs of before as Pagan beliefs, -15 relations.

Religions will be able to be made when you are able to research Organised Beliefs. Probably after Literacy, and in the Social category.

This will pave the way for Theocracys. which would probably have an effect like +50% conversion power, -10% Military power, -10% Research speed.

Anywhays, I hope I have contributed a good part to this, and allow a good piece of society stage to be uncovered, and developed.
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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:38 am

Just to let you know, the purpose of this thread is to discuss the spreading of religion, not how religions will generate in the first place. What's more, there is already a system in place for how religions will generate. They will instead generate based off of a random set of traits that is applied to each one.

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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:25 pm

NickTheNick wrote:
Just to let you know, the purpose of this thread is to discuss the spreading of religion, not how religions will generate in the first place. What's more, there is already a system in place for how religions will generate. They will instead generate based off of a random set of traits that is applied to each one.
Kk, Seems fine enough. It was just an idea I had. But this one seems fine too.
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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:56 pm

I may have understood incorrectly of whether or not this is already incorporated, but I feel like, if a religion was banned in one city, some people who still want to worship that god/those gods would migrate to a city where it is allowed. Just a thought.
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PostSubject: Re: Religious Math   Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:47 pm

Yes, that is incorporated.

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