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 Intelligence is stupid!

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StealthStyle L
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PostSubject: Intelligence is stupid!   Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:42 pm

Recently, it was suggested that we talk about intelligence again. It was also talked about a few years ago but hopefully we can now confirm a bit more now.

How can intelligence be achieved?
The creature must be taking in the right compounds to support this intelligence. Intelligence should increase upon reacting with the environment e.g picking up a rock. However, intelligence should only go up for each action once so you can't spam pebble collecting to get intelligence. Maybe, intelligence could increase in proportion to the complexity of the action. Therefore, picking up a rock and throwing it means it increases more than just picking up a rock. Also, communicating to other creatures should also increase intelligence. Once it reaches a certain point complex communication, giving orders, is available leading to the awakening.

Any problems or ideas to flesh it out a bit?
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PostSubject: Re: Intelligence is stupid!   Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:52 am

I actually don`t think that intelligence should be achieved by doing actions. I mean, this is supposed to be a evolution simulator as well as a game. In real evolution, intelligence is achieved gradually through mutations in the brain. Perhaps some behaviours favours more a big brain than others (eating meat gives you more proteins needed by the brain than eating vegetables, using tools and fire also increase the proteins available) but big changes in the brain don`t happen in a single generation. As I see it, intelligence should be achieved improving the brain in the organism editor.

(If you were talking about the development of the creature in the awakening stage, I think that in that stage you don`t really become intelligent, you just start discovering technologies (that are hidden, you can`t access any tech tree until you make an specific discovery which I can`t remember) likefire, or better tools, or even agriculture until you create your first civic centre and pass to society stage)
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PostSubject: Re: Intelligence is stupid!   Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:41 pm

I would say that at that point you probably are intelligent if you're making a fire.

So how are you suggesting this would work in the OE?
Like a kind of tree, maybe?
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PostSubject: Re: Intelligence is stupid!   Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:00 pm

Well, we're not really at the point where talking about this would change much, but it is going to come at some point, so I might as well say a few things.

All the previous conversations concluded that there would either be a threshold in nervous system complexity or tool use complexity that would lead to the awakening stage. Of course, no matter how manipulative your appendages are, you probably wouldn't be able to command your organism to use them for tool use without a complex-enough brain, but entering the awakening stage as a slug that just happened to be intelligent enough to enter it would be a problem.

One thing people agreed on is that there wouldn't be a prompt to enter the awakening stage. Unfortunately, this makes it possibly the least controllable transition in the game; you can choose whether to get a sticky membrane, whether to specialize your colony enough to get it on the track to awareness, whether to command your friends to build a cluster of huts, and whether to get those shiny stage transition technologies, but your creature can go into the awakening stage without warning, and the organism editor's gone by then, so if you aren't the way you want, you're screwed.

... Maybe, instead of a prompt, there could be a button in the editor to choose to make this your last edit and go into the awakening stage? I mean, it'd keep the whole "invisible intelligence bar", but it'd also avoid fulthfilling the threshold by accident... You'd just need to keep the "awaken" button far enough away from everything else...
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PostSubject: Re: Intelligence is stupid!   Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:50 pm

StealthStyleL wrote:
Like a kind of tree, maybe?
MitochondriaBox wrote:
All the previous conversations concluded that there would either be a threshold in nervous system complexity or tool use complexity that would lead to the awakening stage. Of course, no matter how manipulative your appendages are, you probably wouldn't be able to command your organism to use them for tool use without a complex-enough brain, but entering the awakening stage as a slug that just happened to be intelligent enough to  enter it would be a problem.


I liked this. What if our creature gets a skill tree of sorts? With a better brain comes better motor functions and behaviours? What if every time the player edits his creature, the game analyzes our organism and builds a procedural skill tree for it:


  • With finer tuning on graspers, we are able to pick up smaller objects and manipulate them in more complex ways, which would probably lead to a boost in interaction with the world, leading to higher intelligence.


  • If our organism has legs, let's be able to upgrade that brain to allow our organism to adopt behaviors: sneaking, jumping, sprinting, kicking, etc.


  • Let's say we want to boost the intelligence or an organism with a projectile weapon. As that creature gets smarter, it should be able to shoot straighter, which could be represented in game by a reticle of sorts. With more intelligence the reticle gets smaller and smaller with every upgrade, representing increase in accuracy.


  • An upgrade in the mouth department (or chemical signals or however you want your organism to communicate) would allow for basic communication and with every brain upgrade, communication becomes more complex until entire languages can form.


These are just a few examples of what this skill tree that I'm proposing could cover, but it really all depends on the organism.
In the editor, it would be under a separate tab with an icon of a brain or something. When you click the tab a small window would open up. All you see when you open up the window is a bunch of brain cells that are 'off' which you spend mutation points to 'turn on' allowing for brain upgrades.

Anyways, what do you all think?


Last edited by Atrox on Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:20 pm; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : 1)Addition to and clarification of my idea. 2) Giving credit where credit is due. 3) Spelling.)
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PostSubject: Re: Intelligence is stupid!   Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:52 pm

Atrox wrote:
Anyways, what do you all think?

Brilliant in my book! Kind of reminds me of the brain upgrade system Spore was going to have... in a good way, of course.

Atrox wrote:
With finer tuning on graspers, we are able to pick up smaller objects and manipulate them in more complex ways, which would probably lead to a boost in interaction with the world, leading to higher intelligence.

Well, as I said, intelligence is what would lead to greater interaction, not the other way around... Unless you're talking about the invisible bar. Would your "brain sub-editor" idea allow the intelligence bar to exist?

Atrox wrote:
An upgrade in the mouth department (or chemical signals or however you want your organism to communicate) would allow for basic communication and with every brain upgrade, communication becomes more complex until entire languages can form.

That's actually happened before. To my knowledge, our jaws were weakened to allow us to make a wider range of sounds. Got us out of the whole "grunting caveman" thing.

So, basically, there'd be this connection between evolving your appendages, evolving your brain, and gaining the ability to use those appendages for more things than you'd have been able to previously? Kind of cool that the system would give dexterity some competitive value against claws/stingers/whatever.
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PostSubject: Re: Intelligence is stupid!   Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:06 pm

Thank you for the positive feedback ^_^

MitochondriaBox wrote:
Atrox wrote:
With finer tuning on graspers, we are able to pick up smaller objects and manipulate them in more complex ways, which would probably lead to a boost in interaction with the world, leading to higher intelligence.

Well, as I said, intelligence is what would lead to greater interaction, not the other way around... Unless you're talking about the invisible bar. Would your "brain sub-editor" idea allow the intelligence bar to exist?

Well that's what I was implying. When you upgrade your motor skills in your hands, you allow for a wider range of interacton with the environment. Upgrade brain > better hand skills > more interaction. See what I mean?

I still don't quite entirely understand the 'invisible progress bar' concept to be honest. So I kind of ignored that part when offering my two cents.
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PostSubject: Re: Intelligence is stupid!   Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:26 pm

Atrox wrote:
I still don't quite entirely understand the 'invisible progress bar' concept to be honest. So I kind of ignored that part when offering my two cents.

Back when people here had no clue how the aware-awakening transition should work, some fellows had the idea of a hidden progress bar that went up based on your creature's actions. It wouldn't really be a bar, more like a hidden number, but still.

Essentially, performing actions that would be considered a sign of intelligence, such as actively manipulating your environment, would cause the progress bar to go up. Have you ever played Black & White? If so, think of it like the "converting a town" gig; performing intelligent actions would be akin to casting miracles. However, repetition would give you less and less progress, encouraging that the player get innovative, and thus show even greater intelligence. The problem was that they had to think of what would happen when the invisible bar was filled; making a sort of "final challenge" like building a shelter was considered unrealistic, and, as I said, having you enter the awakening stage without your consent wouldn't give the player as much control as the other transitions, especially when you don't even know how full or empty the bar is.

It was basically a placeholder idea until they could think of something better, if they could.
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PostSubject: Re: Intelligence is stupid!   Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:55 pm

MitochondriaBox wrote:
The problem was that they had to think of what would happen when the invisible bar was filled; making a sort of "final challenge" like building a shelter was considered unrealistic, and, as I said, having you enter the awakening stage without your consent wouldn't give the player as much control as the other transitions, especially when you don't even know how full or empty the bar is.

This final step into civilization could pose a problem...

But I thought of something. The reason humans aren't really evolving physically anymore is because we don't have to survive anymore. We have technology that adapts the world to our needs instead of the other way around.

Possible Solution: Less technology = More physical evolution
                       More technology = slowed down/reduced/halted evolution

When in the aware stage, with enough brainpower, we should be able to build rudimentary shelters and tools, right?
This is when the research tree is unlocked; when we create our first bit of technology, be it fire, a tool, or shelter. As you unlock more and more of the research tree, the amount of changes you should be able to make to your organism in the editor should drop until with enough technology, your species is unable to evolve anymore. There is no need to evolve because technology has advanced enough for it to bend nature to suit your needs. From here it's simply filling out the research tree. Civilizations could be handled via the "Shelter" branch of the tech tree. Start with one shelter and farther down the branch you unlock the ability to create whole villages. Or if you build enough shelters within a set range of each other, the game automagically treats it as a village. And boom, seamless transition.

Also this isn't really using the invisible bar as I didn't really like that idea >.>

Thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: Intelligence is stupid!   Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:23 am

I actually think this is perfectly realistic. When we discovered fire and started using tools, we still had enough time to evolve a few more times before our technology accelerated faster than our evolution. I don't really agree with what you say about humans evolving -we aren't evolving because there hasn't been enough time for us to evolve yet- but your idea is still realistic and accurate.
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PostSubject: Re: Intelligence is stupid!   Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:28 pm

Atrox wrote:
But I thought of something. The reason humans aren't really evolving physically anymore is because we don't have to survive anymore. We have technology that adapts the world to our needs instead of the other way around.

Possible Solution: Less technology = More physical evolution
                       More technology = slowed down/reduced/halted evolution

When in the aware stage, with enough brainpower, we should be able to build rudimentary shelters and tools, right?
This is when the research tree is unlocked; when we create our first bit of technology, be it fire, a tool, or shelter. As you unlock more and more of the research tree, the amount of changes you should be able to make to your organism in the editor should drop until with enough technology, your species is unable to evolve anymore. There is no need to evolve because technology has advanced enough for it to bend nature to suit your needs.

I don`t really see this idea realistic. I mean, the first technology that hominids discovered, arguably, were the stone tools of Homo habilis, 2.3 million years ago. Since then, we really haven`t change physically. I mean, we are a bit taller, our brain is bigger, and we look less ape-ish, but no big changes like the ones that we would be probably able to do with the organism editor (nothing like new appendages, for example). And humans still are evolving today, so I don`t like making a correlation which doesn`t exist in real life.

I like the idea of the tree of complexity for the brain. Perhaps to pass to awakening, you just have to develop the skill of "reasoning" or something like that in the organism editor, in the brain complexity submenu. And before develop it you are warned that after evolve it you will never go again to the editor, for making sure no one will pass to awakening without wanting it.
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PostSubject: Re: Intelligence is stupid!   Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:09 pm

I just made a mistake with the halted evolution thing d: but still evolution is survival of the fittest right? With advances in medical care, even those who would die under natural circumstances, even the unfit, are given a chance at survival. I still stand by what I said about more technology causin less evolution. That's what I meant by technology slowing or halting evolution.

I'm aware that humans didn't change drastically since the creation of tools, which is why I said that the amount of changs we'd be able to make in the OE would be significantly decreased once we unlocked the Research Tree, and it would continue to lower with every new piece of technology our species doscovers until the changes we make would be so infinitesimal that it would be pointless to actually use the OE.

Also the devs said that they wanted to attempt to make the transition from wild animal to civilized being as seamless as possible. A text box saying that the player is about to enter society stage would break the immersion of the game.


Last edited by Atrox on Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Intelligence is stupid!   Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:30 pm

I know that evolution hasn't halted since the creation of tools, but I feel that the changes are very minimal and are not worth adding in. I hardly think the player is going to notice or care about slightly less hair. So I vote we don't add this in.

If you chose to, however, it could be that when you first create tech, the Mutation Points you can spend in the OE should drastically fall so that no drastic changes can be made. From then on, tne more technology you have, the less Mutation Points you get.
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PostSubject: Re: Intelligence is stupid!   Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:50 pm

StealthStyle L wrote:
I know that evolution hasn't halted since the creation of tools, but I feel that the changes are very minimal and are not worth adding in. I hardly think the player is going to notice or care about slightly less hair. So I vote we don't add this in.

If you chose to, however, it could be that when you first create tech, the Mutation Points you can spend in the OE should drastically fall so that no drastic changes can be made. From then on, tne more technology you have, the less Mutation Points you get.

That's what I meant. Was I unclear in my post? :/
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PostSubject: Re: Intelligence is stupid!   Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:14 pm

No, no, it was pretty clear. I was just agreeing with you.

If we do make evolution continue into the awareness stage, which I still don't think we should, then I don't think we should need to alert the player just block entrance to the OE when they have no Mutation Points left after they reach a high level of technology.

If we stop evolution upon entry to the awareness stage, then I think there should be a pop-up in the OE when you click on the part of the tree that will lead you to this stage, that :if you proceed you'll no longer be able to return to the OE.

And upon entrance to society stage there is no need for any message, in my view.
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PostSubject: Re: Intelligence is stupid!   Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:22 pm

Okay I did a bit of research and actually found out that apparently there's supposed to be a new species of human or something by 2050. So yes, humans are still evolving. I was wrong in my assumption that technology eliminates evolution. What if evolution were handled by Auto-Evo during aware stage? Or at least allow the player to make a few generations worth of changes to their creatures at the dawn of aware stage before eliminating the OE from the game altogether? From the time that the first humans showed up and to the present, we've come quite a long way physically, so I think we should at least be able to make a few changes before OE is eliminated.
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PostSubject: Re: Intelligence is stupid!   Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:12 pm

Atrox wrote:
Okay I did a bit of research and actually found out that apparently there's supposed to be a new species of human or something by 2050. So yes, humans are still evolving. I was wrong in my assumption that technology eliminates evolution. What if evolution were handled by Auto-Evo during aware stage?

During aware stage? Auto-Evo will handle evolution of all the species except yours, because it is more fun for your species to be evolved by you. And after aware, the time frame we will be handling is too short for any significant change, so we can suppress evolution as a whole.
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PostSubject: Re: Intelligence is stupid!   Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:14 pm

Okay then I agree with that.
Now we just need one of the devs to see this string of posts and see what they think.
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PostSubject: Re: Intelligence is stupid!   Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:54 pm

Here's a rundown of what topics I've seen so far raised in the thread.

Achieving Intelligence

Intelligence will be achieved through evolution, not action. The Behaviour Editor of the Organism Editor will be where the player can edit the behaviour of their species, based off of the intelligence of that species. Probably something like the Encephalization Quotient will be used to determine the intelligence of an organism. The more intelligent a species is deemed to be (it will probably be given some hidden numerical value), the more complex of a behaviour the player can set up for their species. Therefore, for things like picking up rocks or twigs and using them as tools, or communicating with other members of your species, these aren't actions that are improving your intelligence, these are actions showing the intelligence you are capable of (because of your anatomy). When the behaviour of a species has gotten past a certain threshold of complexity, the game will transition into the Awakening Stage as soon as the player leaves the editor.

Technology vs. Evolution

As soon as the player's species achieves sapience, evolution stops. There are several reasons for this. One, the scale of time has been radically shortened from that of the Aware Stage, and will continue to decrease as the stages go by, and so any evolutionary changes would be too minimal to notice. Two, as mentioned, technology does mitigate a bit of natural selection. But most importantly, three, an incredible amount of the features and mechanics of the gameplay from the Awakening Stage onwards is based off of fixed values of the player's species, for things such as scaling and designing Tech Objects, unit attributes and statistics, population dynamics and trends, etc. A lot of things in the game depend on the fact that your species has stopped evolving and has some nice, fixed values and traits to be worked with. It would be a nightmare to design the game to accommodate a dynamically changing species. 

Anyways, evolution stops, and from this point on, it's not intelligence that is advanced, but technology, and technology IS advanced by actions (as opposed to intelligence, which was driven by evolution). Every time you communicate with a pack member, you contribute points towards developing a "Language". Every time you give a task to another member of your species, you contribute points towards "Communities" (These are early inventions in the research web).

The Return of Evolution

However, if you start playing through the Strategy Mode and you find yourself missing the evolution of the earlier stages, don't despair! The Research Web and the Tech Editor allow your society's technology and tools to be constantly evolving, and more importantly, the invention "Gene Manipulation" allows you to genetically alter your species by regaining access to the Organism Editor (with limitations based on how advanced your civilization is in genetic engineering).

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PostSubject: Re: Intelligence is stupid!   Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:52 pm

Awesome so now we've got a plan for intelligence
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PostSubject: Re: Intelligence is stupid!   Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:57 am

Well we didn't just get it from this thread this plan had already existed before.

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PostSubject: Re: Intelligence is stupid!   Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:39 am

NickTheNick wrote:
the invention "Gene Manipulation" allows you to genetically alter your species by regaining access to the Organism Editor (with limitations based on how advanced your civilization is in genetic engineering).
Also an "Augmentations" upgrade (like in Deus Ex) in the Research Web would help your species to improve its lifespan, intelligence in all its aspects, phisical capabilities and all that too. Putting artificial parts in their bodies using the OE...Y'know, transhumanism things...
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