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 Tech Editor/Maker

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Commander Keen
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:04 pm

The Uteen wrote:
But my point is making 99 different improvements to everything is just pointless. You did come up with improvements to sports, but I didn't see 99. Want to be stuck doing that? And the same for every other advancement made by mankind?

Of course, exactly 99 levels all the time would be pointless, I was just aiming for large amount of possible levels. We can do it in two ways:

1. Infinite levels - players would be able to research infinite levels, but each level up the progress would be less efficient. (Example - gaining level 2 would give +100% efficiency for +10% cost, gaining level 3 would give +90% efficiency for +11% cost, level 4 + 82% efficiency for 13% cost, etc)

OR

2. Levels 1-100 - Levels 1-100, would be defined, level 1 meaning the tech at it's absolute basic and level 100 as total mastery. After level 100, leveling up would be disabled.


I personally vote for number 1.
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eumesmo
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:35 pm

or maybe just a limited number of updates for everything, but like a tech improvement tree.

example:
you cant improve medicine with medical nanites until you got nanotech to level 2 or whatever
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The Uteen
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:00 pm

eumesmo wrote:
or maybe just a limited number of updates for everything, but like a tech improvement tree.

example:
you cant improve medicine with medical nanites until you got nanotech to level 2 or whatever

Then the levels should be separate techs, maybe with an icon for the type (eg medicine). Then we can do that.
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Commander Keen
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:34 pm

The Uteen wrote:
Then the levels should be separate techs, maybe with an icon for the type (eg medicine). Then we can do that.

Even without levels, we would have minimally about 200 or so techs. Now, multiply it with 10 (average number of level-ups), and you get a techtree nightmare.
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roadkillguy
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:41 pm

How about an integer stored with every tech that determines it's level? You would then define a function to give different stats based on a level.
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Darkov
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:58 pm

Well if no more changes to the program are wanted, i will finish it tomorrow and upload it for use.
However if changes are required, the tech trees made with a previous version of the program can't be loaded in newer versions and will have to be remade.
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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:04 pm

zotobom wrote:
But wouldnt it be hard to code that sea creatures cant research fire and wheels etc?
No. If they can't get the resources, they can't reasearch, so anything dependant on the base technology that is unavailable will be unavailable itself.

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Commander Keen
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:45 am

roadkillguy wrote:
How about an integer stored with every tech that determines it's level? You would then define a function to give different stats based on a level.

Exactly how I meant it.

Darkov wrote:
Well if no more changes to the program are wanted, i will finish it tomorrow and upload it for use.
However if changes are required, the tech trees made with a previous version of the program can't be loaded in newer versions and will have to be remade.

Do it, we'll see if it's ready.
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US_of_Alaska
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:31 am

I do not believe that levels are necessary. At all. I mean, if we incorporate levels, then we can and will need to cut half the research tree down.

Consider this: You turn fire into levels. Where do you draw the line between a fire level and a metal working level? I mean, in all logic, metal working should BE a level of fire. Hurts my brain just to think about it. Kill the levels. We have a huge research tree as it is, and i'm only up to compass! I will get to work on that again soon, by the way. Now that i'm back.
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Darkov
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:35 am

Sorry for the delay, uploaded the program:
http://web.hit.bg/thrivedown/Tech%20Editor.exe
If you want to use levels, just name the Tech "Tech Name 1-10", or if you want do not use levels.
Controls:
You click on a tool from the tool box, there are 3 tools, one for placing tech boxes, one for placing connection boxes and one for deleting.
If you want to change the properties of a tech box/connection box, like the text or the connection, right click.
If you want to move the tech box/connection box right click, hold and move.

NOTE: There is a problem with gm, i do not know why its there, but it there. When you save an image of the tech tree, it will be saved on your main C:// hard drive. You can move it after that. Sorry for the inconvenience.

I hope it gets used.
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Commander Keen
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:37 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:
I do not believe that levels are necessary. At all. I mean, if we incorporate levels, then we can and will need to cut half the research tree down.

Consider this: You turn fire into levels. Where do you draw the line between a fire level and a metal working level? I mean, in all logic, metal working should BE a level of fire. Hurts my brain just to think about it. Kill the levels. We have a huge research tree as it is, and i'm only up to compass! I will get to work on that again soon, by the way. Now that i'm back.

Well, you don't need to use levels in research tree, and I think that they should not be used there. That gives players the option to "skip" some techs and focus on another (in gameplay terms, leave one tech at level 1 and level up a newly unlocked one). It leaves the research tree unharmed also.

For the fire-metalworking relation, while they are subsequent and related, they are not the same. Metalworking is a specialization. For an example, let's insert another research in here: Cooking. Improving Fire helps both Cooking and Metalworking, but improving Metalworking does not help Cooking in any way. Each of these techs deservs to be leveled up independetly.
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US_of_Alaska
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:39 pm

Commander Keen wrote:
Well, you don't need to use levels in research tree, and I think that they should not be used there. That gives players the option to "skip" some techs and focus on another (in gameplay terms, leave one tech at level 1 and level up a newly unlocked one). It leaves the research tree unharmed also.

For the fire-metalworking relation, while they are subsequent and related, they are not the same. Metalworking is a specialization. For an example, let's insert another research in here: Cooking. Improving Fire helps both Cooking and Metalworking, but improving Metalworking does not help Cooking in any way. Each of these techs deservs to be leveled up independetly.
I didn't understand that first paragraph at all. Sorry to be a bother, but can you reword it?

But what is fire level two? Cooking or metalworking or something else?
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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:10 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:
Commander Keen wrote:
Well, you don't need to use levels in research tree, and I think that they should not be used there. That gives players the option to "skip" some techs and focus on another (in gameplay terms, leave one tech at level 1 and level up a newly unlocked one). It leaves the research tree unharmed also.

For the fire-metalworking relation, while they are subsequent and related, they are not the same. Metalworking is a specialization. For an example, let's insert another research in here: Cooking. Improving Fire helps both Cooking and Metalworking, but improving Metalworking does not help Cooking in any way. Each of these techs deservs to be leveled up independetly.
I didn't understand that first paragraph at all. Sorry to be a bother, but can you reword it?

But what is fire level two? Cooking or metalworking or something else?
Actually in the instance of fire, it would basically be a one-level technology, but many others would depend on it.

I imagine levels would be like a single technology getting more and more powerful. Each level should lead to a different researchable technology. We should have no levels that do not connect to another technogoy, because from the point of view of gameplay they're useless.

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US_of_Alaska
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:50 pm

~sciocont wrote:
Actually in the instance of fire, it would basically be a one-level technology, but many others would depend on it.

I imagine levels would be like a single technology getting more and more powerful. Each level should lead to a different researchable technology. We should have no levels that do not connect to another technogoy, because from the point of view of gameplay they're useless.
Care to pose some examples of where levels will be used?
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Commander Keen
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:13 am

US_of_Alaska wrote:
I didn't understand that first paragraph at all. Sorry to be a bother, but can you reword it?

Sorry, I knew I was making it overcomplicated, but I had too little time to redo it.

Quote :
Actually in the instance of fire, it would basically be a one-level technology.

Why? You know, when people first used fire, they didn't know how to make it, they could only harvest it. Then they discovered how to make it, and then they experimented with fuels to get longer lasting and hotter fire.

I think every tech should have high amount of levels. To quote Roadkill on this one:
"How about an integer stored with every tech that determines it's level? You would then define a function to give different stats based on a level.".

All those levels would be just a number assigned to research, improving stats, MAYBE unlocking another tech. Nothing more.

Quote :
Each level should lead to a different researchable technology. We should have no levels that do not connect to another technogoy, because from the point of view of gameplay they're useless.

We could include those levels as different researches, there seems to be too big gap from one level to another.
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US_of_Alaska
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:47 pm

Commander Keen wrote:
We could include those levels as different researches, there seems to be too big gap from one level to another.
That's exactly what i'm trying to say. If we can word the researches right, there is no need for levels.
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eumesmo
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:07 pm

there's a big difference from the laser in the supermarket to the one in a death ray satellite, and i don't see the porpouse of all the researches in between. levels would be a much easier thing
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Commander Keen
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:23 am

US_of_Alaska wrote:
Commander Keen wrote:
We could include those levels as different researches, there seems to be too big gap from one level to another.
That's exactly what i'm trying to say. If we can word the researches right, there is no need for levels.

But you would either be stuck with primitive techs, or there would be alot of unneeded researches.

Levels should NOT affect the tech tree in any way, they should just improve already researched technologies.
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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Sun Oct 03, 2010 9:53 am

Commander Keen wrote:
US_of_Alaska wrote:
Commander Keen wrote:
We could include those levels as different researches, there seems to be too big gap from one level to another.
That's exactly what i'm trying to say. If we can word the researches right, there is no need for levels.

But you would either be stuck with primitive techs, or there would be alot of unneeded researches.

Levels should NOT affect the tech tree in any way, they should just improve already researched technologies.
QFT.
I don't approve of any researches that don't unlock other researches outside of one technology's progression.

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eumesmo
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:34 am

some technologies must be dead ends, but they give things themselves. as far as for levels, some things might need some researches to be perfected before. Example: to get medical nanites, you would need nanotechnology to be, lets say, level 2. Or you would need rocket propulsion to be level 3 to send satellites (level 1 would make fireworks and 2 rockets) [obviously we need more levels in between; computers we're not made out of vacuum tubes in one day and silicon chips in the next]






EDIT: i just became top 10 poster with this post !!
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:00 am

eumesmo wrote:
some technologies must be dead ends, but they give things themselves. as far as for levels, some things might need some researches to be perfected before. Example: to get medical nanites, you would need nanotechnology to be, lets say, level 2. Or you would need rocket propulsion to be level 3 to send satellites (level 1 would make fireworks and 2 rockets) [obviously we need more levels in between; computers we're not made out of vacuum tubes in one day and silicon chips in the next]






EDIT: i just became top 10 poster with this post !!
Yeah! Just like in Sins of a solar Empire. For an research you would neet level 2 of the research before that etc etc.
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eumesmo
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:50 am

zotobom wrote:

Yeah! Just like in Sins of a solar Empire. For an research you would neet level 2 of the research before that etc etc.

actually that is not a bad example at all, but ours would be much bigger, complex and based on other things
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:11 am

I don't think levels should affect research. They should make the technology more efficient and give you FPs and TOs, but that's all. Our tech tree will be complicated enough as it is, including levels as a requirement for more researches is a bit too much.


Last edited by Commander Keen on Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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The Uteen
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:23 am

Commander Keen wrote:
including levels as a requirement for levels is a bit too much.

Umm... You need level 2 to get level 3, don't you?
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PostSubject: Re: Tech Editor/Maker   Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:03 pm

The Uteen wrote:
Commander Keen wrote:
including levels as a requirement for levels is a bit too much.

Umm... You need level 2 to get level 3, don't you?

I screwed up. Thank you for pointing it out. I meant "Including levels as a requirement for another researches (Like Fire lvl.5 for Metalworking)".

Editing now. Again, thank you.
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