Thrive Game Development

Development of the evolution game Thrive.
 
HomeHome  PortalPortal  CalendarCalendar  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  MemberlistMemberlist  UsergroupsUsergroups  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Welcome new and returning members!
If you're new, read around a bit before you post: the odds are we've already covered your suggestion.
If you want to join the development team, sign up and tell us why.
ADMIN is pleased to note that this marquee has finally been updated.
ADMIN reminds you that the Devblog is REQUIRED reading.
Currently: The Microbe Stage GUI is under heavy development
Log in
Username:
Password:
Log in automatically: 
:: I forgot my password
Quick Links
Website
/r/thrive
GitHub
FAQs
Wiki
New Posts
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Statistics
We have 1675 registered users
The newest registered user is dejo123

Our users have posted a total of 30851 messages in 1411 subjects
Who is online?
In total there are 3 users online :: 0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 3 Guests

None

Most users ever online was 443 on Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:41 pm
Latest topics
» THIS FORUM IS NOW OBSOLETE
by NickTheNick Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:26 pm

» To all the people who come here looking for thrive.
by NickTheNick Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:22 pm

» Build Error Code::Blocks / CMake
by crovea Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:28 pm

» Hello! I can translate in japanese
by tjwhale Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:23 pm

» On Leave (Offline thread)
by NickTheNick Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:20 am

» Devblog #14: A Brave New Forum
by NickTheNick Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:49 am

» Application for Programmer
by crovea Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:14 am

» Re-Reapplication
by The Creator Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:57 pm

» Application (programming)
by crovea Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:00 am

» Achieving Sapience
by MitochondriaBox Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:03 pm

» Microbe Stage GDD
by tjwhale Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:44 pm

» Application for Programmer/ Theorist
by tjwhale Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:56 am

» Application for a 3D Modeler.
by Kaiju4u Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:16 am

» Presentation
by Othithu Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:38 am

» Application of Sorts
by crovea Sun May 31, 2015 5:06 pm

» want to contribute
by Renzope Sun May 31, 2015 12:58 pm

» Music List Thread (Post New Themes Here)
by Oliveriver Thu May 28, 2015 1:06 pm

» Application: English-Spanish translator
by Renzope Tue May 26, 2015 1:53 pm

» Want to be promoter or project manager
by TheBudderBros Sun May 24, 2015 9:00 pm

» A new round of Forum Revamps!
by Oliveriver Wed May 20, 2015 11:32 am


Share | 
 

 Gaining Intelligence

Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
AuthorMessage
Tenebrarum
Society Team Lead
avatar

Posts : 1179
Reputation : 32
Join date : 2010-10-01
Age : 24
Location : ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

PostSubject: Gaining Intelligence   Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:09 pm

While there's been alot of talk on both ends of the awakening, there hasn't been much discussian about how we GET there. So here's my idea.

Basically, it's a progress bar. I hate them, but it's the only way I can imagine this working. The progress bar is invisable to the player. Now, when the meter fills up, the player will be promted to try and build a shelter, or some other simple building WITHOUT THE TECH EDITOR. (We'd need an algorithem to identify four walls and a roof as a shelter.) This is key. Like a final boss in any other game, this will be a final test of skill and a "what have we learned" type deal, requiring patience, skill, and creativity. If successful, sapience is acheived and the tech editor is unlocked.

Now, the progress bar. The player will move along this by doing things that promote intelligence in other creatures. This includes manipulating the environment, exploring, problem solving (Like catching prey) and working outside the box. Also note that if the player settles into a rutine, the bar will not move. Repition is what creates stagnation. The player must be constantly trying new things, and they must be things not naturaly tenable for the species.

Discuss.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
toxiciron
Newcomer
avatar

Posts : 73
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-10-06
Age : 24
Location : coLation

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:04 am

this all sounds good, but what if the shelter you wanted to build didn't have walls or a roof? what if it was a tree fort made of just a large platform (rock? idk) balanced on two branches?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
US_of_Alaska
Overall Team Co-Lead
avatar

Posts : 1335
Reputation : 29
Join date : 2010-07-07
Age : 25
Location : Australia

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:37 am

toxiciron wrote:
this all sounds good, but what if the shelter you wanted to build didn't have walls or a roof? what if it was a tree fort made of just a large platform (rock? idk) balanced on two branches?
That's where the programmers would really have to think about this algorithm and make it work.

However, i'm not sure that building a shelter should be the final test. It's definitely a strong sign of sapience, but not the sole definer. In fact, usually the way experts define the difference between man and animal is the fact that man uses tools to make other tools. Maybe that could be incorporated into this "final test"?

I just think having one ultimate test is a little too linear and restrictive.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Xenopologist
Learner


Posts : 107
Reputation : 3
Join date : 2010-08-07

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:46 am

US_of_Alaska wrote:
I just think having one ultimate test is a little too linear and restrictive.

I agree. What defines sapience can differ based on the circumstances, and making it one ultimate goal seems too linear. Have we thought of the possibility that some players might make choices against achieving sapience, instead aiming to excel in some other category but remain a lower-intelligence organism? Sapience in itself might not necessarily be the end goal of every evolutionary path.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
eumesmo
Regular
avatar

Posts : 297
Reputation : 4
Join date : 2010-07-09

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:09 pm

we could have a scale that could say that the brain capacity would be = to x cubic cm or to the intelligence of something. this could work for hive minded creatures. We cannot make a linear par of capacity or test, but a estimate of the processing power of the brain..
Back to top Go down
View user profile
The Uteen
Sandbox Team Lead
avatar

Posts : 1476
Reputation : 70
Join date : 2010-07-06
Age : 21
Location : England, Virgo Supercluster

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:48 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
While there's been alot of talk on both ends of the awakening, there hasn't been much discussian about how we GET there. So here's my idea.

Basically, it's a progress bar. I hate them, but it's the only way I can imagine this working. The progress bar is invisable to the player. Now, when the meter fills up, the player will be promted to try and build a shelter, or some other simple building WITHOUT THE TECH EDITOR. (We'd need an algorithem to identify four walls and a roof as a shelter.) This is key. Like a final boss in any other game, this will be a final test of skill and a "what have we learned" type deal, requiring patience, skill, and creativity. If successful, sapience is acheived and the tech editor is unlocked.

Now, the progress bar. The player will move along this by doing things that promote intelligence in other creatures. This includes manipulating the environment, exploring, problem solving (Like catching prey) and working outside the box. Also note that if the player settles into a rutine, the bar will not move. Repition is what creates stagnation. The player must be constantly trying new things, and they must be things not naturaly tenable for the species.

Discuss.

I agree with this idea, but I'd like to suggest some changes (the first two I think would help make the transition smoother):


No prompt, seriously, that sounds way too much like Spore "Click the history button to evolve" "Eat plant or meat" "Get that skeleton, it contains a part you can graft onto your body like an unholy zombie"

When the bar fills you achieve sentience straight away (having a 'one last thing' doesn't appeal to me, filling the bar means you are doing the things to get sapience anyway),

Finally, when you fall into routine, the bar very slowly goes down, so avoiding awakening is easier.


Do you think we could do this, to save us from Sporification and smooth gameplay?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
US_of_Alaska
Overall Team Co-Lead
avatar

Posts : 1335
Reputation : 29
Join date : 2010-07-07
Age : 25
Location : Australia

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:06 pm

The Uteen wrote:
I agree with this idea, but I'd like to suggest some changes (the first two I think would help make the transition smoother):

No prompt, seriously, that sounds way too much like Spore "Click the history button to evolve" "Eat plant or meat" "Get that skeleton, it contains a part you can graft onto your body like an unholy zombie"

When the bar fills you achieve sentience straight away (having a 'one last thing' doesn't appeal to me, filling the bar means you are doing the things to get sapience anyway),

Finally, when you fall into routine, the bar very slowly goes down, so avoiding awakening is easier.

Do you think we could do this, to save us from Sporification and smooth gameplay?
Actually, yes. I think the best way to stop this from becoming linear is take away the prompts. The game will know how far you are on this progress bar anyways (and building a shelter would bump it up a fair bit). Actually, we could have building a shelter be a prerequisite for the Tech Editor, no? But what should unlock Strategy Mode? Complex Communication, maybe?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
GamerXA
Regular
avatar

Posts : 285
Reputation : 12
Join date : 2010-07-06
Age : 29
Location : Australia, Queensland

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:58 pm

Since this topic seems to hinge around being able to build complex tech objects. Many other Organisms in the Real World can use items that we would consider in-game to be Tech Objects such as Crows, Apes and some domesticated dogs (though to a lesser extent). Albeit they mostly just use a stick and in the case of crows, wire.

This is an important step. Instead of having the Behaviour Trees on these Organisms filled up with a clutter of doing small individual steps eventually it would reach a point where, with enough repetition, these Behaviours to "Make a Hut by Placing Sticks" would just be replaced by just "Make a Hut". A certain number of these advancements based on the Tech Objects Complexity could warrant the advance to Sapience.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Tenebrarum
Society Team Lead
avatar

Posts : 1179
Reputation : 32
Join date : 2010-10-01
Age : 24
Location : ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:38 pm

The prompt would merely be a sugestion, not a requirement. Since I feel it'd be best hiding the intelligence bar, this would let players know when they should work on it.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
toxiciron
Newcomer
avatar

Posts : 73
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-10-06
Age : 24
Location : coLation

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:28 am

shouldn't they be always working on it, if what they want is to eventually become sapient?
which reminds me, we should at least mention in the manual or in a tutorial that becoming intelligent organisms means thinking outside the box constantly.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
US_of_Alaska
Overall Team Co-Lead
avatar

Posts : 1335
Reputation : 29
Join date : 2010-07-07
Age : 25
Location : Australia

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:32 am

Tenebrarum wrote:
The prompt would merely be a sugestion, not a requirement. Since I feel it'd be best hiding the intelligence bar, this would let players know when they should work on it.
Okay, i can work with notifications like: "Congratulations! You're well on your way to sapience! Try creating a shelter or making some tools!".
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Albalrogue
Learner
avatar

Posts : 143
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-09-26
Age : 25
Location : France

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:45 am

US_of_Alaska wrote:
Tenebrarum wrote:
The prompt would merely be a sugestion, not a requirement. Since I feel it'd be best hiding the intelligence bar, this would let players know when they should work on it.
Okay, i can work with notifications like: "Congratulations! You're well on your way to sapience! Try creating a shelter or making some tools!".

Would it be possible to disable these notifications then?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
The Uteen
Sandbox Team Lead
avatar

Posts : 1476
Reputation : 70
Join date : 2010-07-06
Age : 21
Location : England, Virgo Supercluster

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:02 pm

Albalrogue wrote:
US_of_Alaska wrote:
Tenebrarum wrote:
The prompt would merely be a sugestion, not a requirement. Since I feel it'd be best hiding the intelligence bar, this would let players know when they should work on it.
Okay, i can work with notifications like: "Congratulations! You're well on your way to sapience! Try creating a shelter or making some tools!".

Would it be possible to disable these notifications then?

I was thinking the same reading this, after all, you don't want it appearing all the time, especially if you were not interested in getting sapience and are just seeing where the game takes you or have already made a save and know what to do.

Can this 'suggestion' only appear with the help option checked? It is help, after all, so it should be covered by the help option. That would make me completely happy with including it.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
US_of_Alaska
Overall Team Co-Lead
avatar

Posts : 1335
Reputation : 29
Join date : 2010-07-07
Age : 25
Location : Australia

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:03 pm

The Uteen wrote:
I was thinking the same reading this, after all, you don't want it appearing all the time, especially if you were not interested in getting sapience and are just seeing where the game takes you or have already made a save and know what to do.

Can this 'suggestion' only appear with the help option checked? It is help, after all, so it should be covered by the help option. That would make me completely happy with including it.
Makes perfect sense.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Tenebrarum
Society Team Lead
avatar

Posts : 1179
Reputation : 32
Join date : 2010-10-01
Age : 24
Location : ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:30 am

Is it possible to work in hunting and other such early-game activities to help critters gain sentience?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Albalrogue
Learner
avatar

Posts : 143
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-09-26
Age : 25
Location : France

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:30 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
Is it possible to work in hunting and other such early-game activities to help critters gain sentience?

Yes since it will make critters more social if they start hunting in packs, but if you're organism hunts on it's own all the time then senscience will be less likely. Am I right?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Tenebrarum
Society Team Lead
avatar

Posts : 1179
Reputation : 32
Join date : 2010-10-01
Age : 24
Location : ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:54 pm

Albalrogue wrote:
Tenebrarum wrote:
Is it possible to work in hunting and other such early-game activities to help critters gain sentience?

Yes since it will make critters more social if they start hunting in packs, but if you're organism hunts on it's own all the time then senscience will be less likely. Am I right?

Yes, but still significantly better than an herbavor.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Albalrogue
Learner
avatar

Posts : 143
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-09-26
Age : 25
Location : France

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:57 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
Albalrogue wrote:
Tenebrarum wrote:
Is it possible to work in hunting and other such early-game activities to help critters gain sentience?

Yes since it will make critters more social if they start hunting in packs, but if you're organism hunts on it's own all the time then senscience will be less likely. Am I right?

Yes, but still significantly better than an herbavor.

Big apes have gained some form of inteligence even if they have a more herbivore diet.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Tenebrarum
Society Team Lead
avatar

Posts : 1179
Reputation : 32
Join date : 2010-10-01
Age : 24
Location : ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:01 pm

Albalrogue wrote:
Tenebrarum wrote:
Albalrogue wrote:
Tenebrarum wrote:
Is it possible to work in hunting and other such early-game activities to help critters gain sentience?

Yes since it will make critters more social if they start hunting in packs, but if you're organism hunts on it's own all the time then senscience will be less likely. Am I right?

Yes, but still significantly better than an herbavor.

Big apes have gained some form of inteligence even if they have a more herbivore diet.

Apes still hunt though. Rarely, but they do. Their not purely herbavore.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Albalrogue
Learner
avatar

Posts : 143
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2010-09-26
Age : 25
Location : France

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:06 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
Albalrogue wrote:
Tenebrarum wrote:
Albalrogue wrote:
Tenebrarum wrote:
Is it possible to work in hunting and other such early-game activities to help critters gain sentience?

Yes since it will make critters more social if they start hunting in packs, but if you're organism hunts on it's own all the time then senscience will be less likely. Am I right?

Yes, but still significantly better than an herbavor.

Big apes have gained some form of inteligence even if they have a more herbivore diet.

Apes still hunt though. Rarely, but they do. Their not purely herbavore.

I know that they are omnis, but if they rarely hunt then wouldn't they be less curious to discover new ways to hunt?

Well I suppose we got this inteligent (I hate saying that humans are inteligent) becaus ewe ate more meat than the other apes. Therefore finding new ways to hunt such as using spears, or scaring mamouths and make them fall off cliffs. So if apes have gained as much curiosity then they must be eating more meat than we thought.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Commander Keen
Industrial Team Lead
avatar

Posts : 1123
Reputation : 36
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : Czech Republic (not that anyone would know where it is...)

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:49 am

Maybe if herbivores used simple tools as a defence against predators, they could get sapient, but it would take them reeeeally long.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
GamerXA
Regular
avatar

Posts : 285
Reputation : 12
Join date : 2010-07-06
Age : 29
Location : Australia, Queensland

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:27 am

Stagnancy in one aspect would not warrant the increase to Sapiency. For herbivores, almost all of their time is occupied by eating enough low-energy food so that they can actually stay alive. Meat may not have made our ancestors smart, but it definitely freed up their time for playing around; and playing around is pretty much the key to sapience. Without Trial and Error, there is no progress.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Commander Keen
Industrial Team Lead
avatar

Posts : 1123
Reputation : 36
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : Czech Republic (not that anyone would know where it is...)

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:00 am

Well, then there must be a way to get "high-energy plants". Maybe carnivorous plants that eat medium-size animals?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
eumesmo
Regular
avatar

Posts : 297
Reputation : 4
Join date : 2010-07-09

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:22 am

well, if a creature ate fruits instead of leaves, that would give him a huge increment in the amount of energy taken in
Back to top Go down
View user profile
The Uteen
Sandbox Team Lead
avatar

Posts : 1476
Reputation : 70
Join date : 2010-07-06
Age : 21
Location : England, Virgo Supercluster

PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:13 pm

I don't want to forget completely about the diet of a herbivore, so let's just say they eat very high-energy plants for this example:

There is a herbivore prey species, and it's predator is a fairly sapient (not civilised yet) purely predatory species. This sapient predator can learn how the prey species hides from it, and its common choice of hiding place. The prey needs to do something, because without being able to hide properly, it is almost totally defenceless. Therefore, it needs to come up with other ways of avoiding detection, and it needs to be able to think them, not slowly evolve to change its habits. Therefore, over time, this lucky prey species becomes able to imagine other ways to hide, beginning the unstoppable process of development, and imagination develops into conscious thought, and conscious thought develops into sentience and sapience.

It's possible, you just need a little imagination (which develops into conscious thought, and conscious thought develops into sentience and sapience, so us humans are well on our way to become intelligent :lol:).
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   

Back to top Go down
 
Gaining Intelligence
Back to top 
Page 1 of 4Go to page : 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Thrive Game Development :: Development :: Design :: Gameplay Stages :: Awakening-
Jump to: