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 GamerXA - Organism Editor

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hihoraptor



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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:22 pm

I'm sure there is more then one way to light the fire and the throat would probably have protection, like a layer of slime or saliva to protect it from burns, as well as the palate. I don't think evolution of it is that hard to do either, the thing could belch hot air that smelled foul, for defense and hunting. From there you only need to light the gases once they are thick enough. Getting something to ignite isn't a hard thing to do, I would thing. However using this defense on a planet with mostly methane or flammable gases would pretty much kill everything for few miles around if not more.
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:30 pm

My thoughts exactly. A combination of these two ideas (the croc inspired palate from hihoraptor and the ignition method from SacredSpirit) and adding a layer of protective slime/mucus would probably be just the ticket. Wonder what the devs think on this idea.
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:11 pm

another problem with this though is the gas dissipating could go back into the creatures face, this could be solved with an boney or tough face, but the creature wouldn't be able to have any soft surface showing like eyes, and heavy eyelids to stop the eyes drying out would have to blink differently than usual because I don't think out blinking system supports armoured eyelids.

the dragon also wouldn't be able to taste from the front of it's mouth where it is useful so the thick skin on the inside of the mouth either needs to be at the front or the dragon to have an extremely fast gag to get the stuff out of it's throat that tastes poisonous.
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:26 pm

You have a point, I've worked with Bunsen burners before, and if the flame refuses to light you are supposed to turn the gas off, so that spare gas isn't lit when you try again. But I think that maybe the gas is being pushed out of the mouth under pressure, so the only real danger would be if there was wind blowing in your face.

An armored face would be a good precaution though, and you are probably right that it would kill any sense of taste, but you can also fortify the digestive system in the OE against poisons/toxins, I think.

Side Note: This could be interpreted as anything you want to breathe fire, not just a dragon.
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:41 pm

I think life will find away with that, also I was thinking of like a flame thrower type set up, something like fangs that light the gas. I'll think about it and see if i can come up with something. I was thinking about more then just dragons
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:47 pm

Immortal_Dragon wrote:
1. The fire breath thing has been discussed, and since there has been no feasible way so far to keep the creature's mouth safe from the flames, the way to go has been the bombardier beetle, mix two substances outside the body, keeps the creature safe from harm and you can still shoot fire.

5. Ice shards like that will probably cut the creature on their way out, and cooling something to that cold, inside the body might just make the creature freeze up too.
I may have some solutions to these problems.

For the fire, I have done extensive experimentation and study at home, and at school on this subject, and I believe the solution proposed in "Dragons: A Fantasy Made Real" is actually the best case scenario for fire breath, and an explanation for how a creature with biology like a dragon could be able to fly with wings of that size.

Dragons: A Fantasy Made Real wrote:
Hydrogen production
Sometime in the evolutionary development of dragons, they succeeded in harnessing their natural gut bacteria in two unique ways, flight and fire. Many animals possess in their guts active bacteria which aid in the digestion of food. The bacteria inside the dragon's gut produces hydrogen. The hydrogen produced in the gut is then transferred into the internal bladders. This was seen as the dragon breathed fire.
In the case of the dragons in this documentary from Animal Planet, it was a pair of sacks very similar to a second pair of lungs, except for the fact of them being used for a different purpose entirely.

Dragons: A Fantasy Made Real wrote:
Flight
Dragons have several characteristics typical of flight. The honeycomb structure of their bones allows them to be light, while retaining their strength. Huge hearts are also typical of flight, as chest muscles would need vast amounts of oxygen-rich blood in order to move the large wings. Although they possess large wings, just under 20 feet (6.1 m), the wing-span/weight ratio of dragons is not enough for the wings to give enough lift.
Dragons overcame this by utilizing two internal bladders. Fully inflated, these bladders had a combined volume of 30 cubic feet (0.85 m3). The bladders, when filled with hydrogen and methane; both of which are lighter than air, provide the extra lift needed to get the dragon off the ground.
Those Gasses were produced by the Bacteria within their Stomachs, which were then funneled into the extra bladders, and to keep the gasses from escaping, a dragon also would seal its nostrils like a hippopotamus, and they also possessed a trait the modern crocodiles possess, a palatal flap; a rigid tissue at the back of the mouth that blocks the entry of water. However, this flap was used to stop gasses from escaping, as well as keep water out. There also was a sort of valve connected to the gas bladders, so the gasses would not leave the bladders involuntarily once there. Also, when incorporating that the dragon would need these bladders full to a certain point, if a Dragon overused its fire, then it would be unable to fly.

Dragons: A Fantasy Made Real wrote:
Fire breathing
As well as the flight bladders being used as buoyancy aids, they also double as fuel stores for the fire that dragons are famous for breathing. The hydrogen and methane combine with oxygen in the presence of platinum, as a catalyst, and combust. The inside of dragons mouths are armor-plated and it has a false palate in its throat, similar to a crocodile, to stop backdraft.
Because of the dual use of the bladders, the more fire a dragon breathes, the shorter the distance it can fly.
Now, if the armor plating path doesn't fit your fancy, you could have a bladder, or gland, that produces a flame-retardant solution/enzyme, that could be contained in the creature's saliva.

Some believed Dragons were also venomous, so the venom could have a flame-retardant characteristic, or perhaps the inside of its mouth was coated with a mucous. There is quite a large amount of possibilities to make fire breathing perfectly plausible. Its just very difficult for a creature to evolve it, and maintain it. Meaning only the toughest critters could feasibly make use of such an ability. but once you get it, and perfect it, you can either be the world's most dangerous prey, or the predator that makes anything his/her meal.

Also, there is an alternative to the gas bladders for flame fuel.

Use a flammable venom, and a throat pouch like a penguin. Creature swallows flint and steel into the pouch, or other substances to produce a spark, then, spark a spray of venom, and there you have it, a fiery plume, created outside of the body. .3.

I'll elaborate on the ice once I return from an errand I have to go do.
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:58 pm

Cool, sounds feasible to my knowledge of chemistry and biology.

But say what about the creature produces one or two substances that are mixed internally through Glands, and reacts with the atmosphere once sprayed to ignite. The mouth and insides will need protection from these flames of course, so maybe flame-retardant saliva or mucus in the mouth.

Looking forward to hearing about Ice breath.
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:05 pm

Now, I hate to bring a children's movie into a very serious discussion, but another plausible way of creating a fire is having two separate functions.

In How to Train your Dragon, from DreamWorks (little cousin, don't ask), there's a dragon called the Zippleback. (Again don't ask.)

While it's a cartoon, the way for dragons to breathe fire in that movie were very plausible. The Zippleback is a two headed dragon, each head has a different function, one head breathes a seemingly denser than air, flammable gas, as the gas does not instantly dissipate and instead forms in clouds, and the other produces a spark from the mouth that lights it. This can allow the dragon to keep a safe distance when using it's fire.

I call it 'Lighter Breath'. (Like a cigarette lighter...? Ah forget it...) Anyway, while we don't necessarily have to have two heads to do this for OUR creatures, we can use a similar mechanic. The creature expels the gas, then sparks it to ignite it.

This creates not only a blinding cloud to confuse an enemy or prey, and distract it, but a well done steak soon after the spark goes off on the cloud.
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:51 pm

You know, my thoughts ran along that exact same track too, it would probably be possible with the methods for creating a spark discussed here. I know the cartoon didn't go into too much detail on how the Zippleback creates the spark, but maybe a crystalline growth in the throat or metal coated teeth like has been discussed before.

Not only that, but it gets around the problem of protecting the mouth from fire.
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:15 pm

It eliminates any form of internal injury, as the gas would be harmless when expelled, but what about external? That's a problem.
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:49 pm

spacetime_dinosaur proposed having a heavily armored face with heavy eyelids so that no soft flesh is exposed to the heat, maybe that would work on the head that lights it. Another option would be to have a false head, where it has the mechanism to light the spark, but no other vulnerable soft tissues that would possibly be exposed.
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:11 am

I was imagining a heavily plated head and long arms that have the sparker - the head could even extend forward before exhaling the gas and then retract back and have the plate shield the rest of the face. (however!! there are likely some odd behaviours that the cloud of gas does based on something moving through it that would need to be investigated.) More like a crab rather than a spout.

Polycephaly could be another way of achieving it, but I think using your limbs would be less expensive.

If I were to select a fire-creation choice, I'd think ejecting a flammable liquid would be a better idea because control and it doesn't react to movement as unpredictably.
however then I ponder where the evolution would even start, but perhaps that's out of the scope of this discussion... it'd have to be something that is useful even before any sparker has evolved/the sparker evolves first and has some kind of connected behaviour of the creature puking/breathing at the spark...?
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:25 am

The methods proposed here have been using gases created by the digestive system, however in order to light it effectively the player would need to be able to see it, but that's more a UI problem.

Limbs might be a better way to spark the gas.

Producing a flammable liquid could be done with modifying a Gland part with the right composition, regardless of whether it needs an outside spark or just ignites in the atmosphere.

Considering how a creature would evolve this is not out of the scope of the discussion, these abilities can't just pop up out of the blue. What did you have in mind? It is most likely that the flammable liquid evolves after the sparker, but that's just my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:36 am


^Check 4:21^

This thing uses a different use for fire all together... And the stuff it spits is flammable. .3.

However, perhaps the flames from venom would evolve in a species that has somehow acquired something like the hunter-sachs organs, and a venom spraying capability, and the electricity sparks it.

Or, the species cares for its young, and has a pouch in their throat, like a penguin, and with some intelligence, notices that flint and steel (Or whatever you like) creates a flame when its venom is coating them. (Could be discovered by a rockslide, or something) Maybe it thinks to put thee materials in its pouch, and it clicks them when it sprays venom, and instead, out plumes flames. .3.

Beginnings aren't exactly my specialy, but the biological bits needed for things, come a bit easier to me, probably from my experience at the Spec. Evo forums, which, ithink Nemo Ramjet was part of at some point in the past... Not sure. It's a bit fuzzy.
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:05 am

Not sure what I had in mind regarding the evolution - it does make sense that a sparker would evolve first to intimidate predators.

One method to produce a flammable liquid would be to boil sugars into alcohol somehow? Not sure whether the alcohol would be a reward for another species for protecting them or an exotic deterrent?


Hm hmm.
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:11 pm

Well, I think there is an Esophageal Pouch part planned, but I am not sure how holding rocks in it would be producing a spark to light a liquid.

One thought I had for a sparker limb would just be a limb with two crystalline-like coverings which would create a spark to light the already sprayed fluid. The creature could consume or rub the limb on the minerals to replenish the covering.

There are more substances than just alcohol that are flammable, and how is a creature going to boil the alcohol without killing itself, aside from some internal insulation?

For electricity to light the venom, it would need to arc, and I am not sure how hard that would be to achieve, metal-covered teeth and powerful hunter-sachs organs?
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:17 pm

Sorry, not "boil" literally. I'm just stupid and don't know how to english properly.


Wikipedia wrote:
Ethanol is obtained fermentation using glucose produced from sugar from the hydrolysis of starch, in the presence of yeast and temperature of less than 37 °C to produce ethanol. For instance, such a process might proceed by the conversion of sucrose by the enzyme invertase into glucose and fructose, then the conversion of glucose by the enzyme zymase into ethanol (and carbon dioxide).
Several of the benign bacteria[which?] in the intestine use fermentation as a form of anaerobic metabolism. This metabolic reaction produces ethanol as a waste product, just like aerobic respiration produces carbon dioxide and water. Thus, human bodies contain some quantity of alcohol endogenously produced by these bacteria. In rare cases, this can be sufficient to cause "auto-brewery syndrome" in which intoxicating quantities of alcohol are produced.
Perhaps housing a colony of fermentating bacteria or yeast in a separate crop? *shrug*

I can't think of other easily biologically produced substances other than ethanol and methanol, as I'm quite terrible at chemistry and have wikipedia as my only reference tool.
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:11 pm

Well, something like an organ to specifically contain the bacteria to ferment it would not be unreasonable in my opinion. Bacteria is responsible for things such as digestion in a lot of complex organisms, including humans. It would probably only need a Bladder to push it out of the mouth and a spark to light it.

What about having more than one Gland to produce a flammable substance, since the Glands can be specialized, I'm not entirely sure which compounds do what (I'm not a chemistry genius either), we can come up with something. Thinking something like napalm or Greek Fire.
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:08 pm

Immortal_Dragon wrote:
Well, I think there is an Esophageal Pouch part planned, but I am not sure how holding rocks in it would be producing a spark to light a liquid.

One thought I had for a sparker limb would just be a limb with two crystalline-like coverings which would create a spark to light the already sprayed fluid. The creature could consume or rub the limb on the minerals to replenish the covering.

There are more substances than just alcohol that are flammable, and how is a creature going to boil the alcohol without killing itself, aside from some internal insulation?

For electricity to light the venom, it would need to arc, and I am not sure how hard that would be to achieve, metal-covered teeth and powerful hunter-sachs organs?
Flint n' Steel. Click 'em together, or other material that produces spark when struck against something.
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:27 pm

Ok, sparking them inside is all well and good, but how is that spark going to get to the flammable material?
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:39 pm

Well, for one, I feel that the creatures should suffer from perpetual dry mouth. Saliva would probably just kill the spark (Palates for protection, we've been over this before!) Second of all, the sparks could possibly be ejected just from the creature breathing out (possibly powerfully, meaning the spark ejection would mean that using too much could cause problems, so it would be the prototype of your species evolving fire, possibly.) I love my overuse of possibly in this post.

Anyway, I want to know how the metal plated teeth would work. To melt the metal so it would form to the teeth, you'd NEED the fire, and you can't get the fire without the metal teeth. IT DOESN'T COMPUTE! MALFUNCTION! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!

I'm sorry...Doctor Who...Is wonderful...

Anyway, I believe that the metal coated teeth would be difficult without some sort of melting agent, and giving a creature fire AND acid is a little much, I think, and I think that it would make an animal too powerful. Top of the food chain is one thing, a God-creature wreaking havoc on the world is a completely different matter.
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:33 pm

As far as I know, we aren't giving a creature fire and acid at the same time. Flammable venom/liquid that can be sprayed from the mouth is more likely.

So far, a definite method of creating the spark has not been decided upon as far as I can deduce, but there have been a few possibilities thrown around. How would you go about creating the spark yourself dinoman?

Saliva killing the spark, yes, no need to progress further on that, dry mouths it is.

I'm more thinking about something along the lines of just getting the material to stick to a surface on the creature that can create the spark through a simple action. It can just spray the liquid and then light it afterward. As one strategy other than lighting it on its way out.

Or, just have the creature produce a substance that ignites when exposed to the atmosphere naturally, and have it closed off from air until it is needed.

The other method brought up is to spray the leftover digestive gases, but that still needs a spark.
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:47 pm

Immortal_Dragon wrote:
As far as I know, we aren't giving a creature fire and acid at the same time. Flammable venom/liquid that can be sprayed from the mouth is more likely.

So far, a definite method of creating the spark has not been decided upon as far as I can deduce, but there have been a few possibilities thrown around. How would you go about creating the spark yourself dinoman?

Saliva killing the spark, yes, no need to progress further on that, dry mouths it is.

I'm more thinking about something along the lines of just getting the material to stick to a surface on the creature that can create the spark through a simple action. It can just spray the liquid and then light it afterward. As one strategy other than lighting it on its way out.

Or, just have the creature produce a substance that ignites when exposed to the atmosphere naturally, and have it closed off from air until it is needed.

The other method brought up is to spray the leftover digestive gases, but that still needs a spark.
Being that I'm intelligent, I just bash two rocks together and make the sparks rain down upon my firewood and dry grass, but that's because I'm more evolved than the creatures in question. Would it be possible to have muscles in the jaw that create so much friction that a spark is ejected? That's how the Zippleback seems to do it, since no other obvious way was given.
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PostSubject: Re: GamerXA - Organism Editor   Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:27 pm

I see no reason why it couldn't, but the muscle in question would have to be made of a material or have a coating that would make the spark when they are rubbed together with enough force. Timing would be the only factor of lighting the substance before or after it leaves the mouth in my mind.

The question was if you had a mechanism in mind for lighting the fire, and you answered that, so much ado about nothing there I guess.



Plus, are there different ways aside from a flammable liquid that requires an outside spark, digestive gases that also require an outside spark, or even producing a substance that naturally combusts when exposed to the outside atmosphere, that we may have missed for possible fire breathing? Also aside from the bombardier beetle inspired method I mentioned earlier.

Actually, it isn't so much what is being used for fire at the moment, but getting the spark, sorry for digressing.
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PostSubject: Not too sure about this   Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:54 pm

Have u people tought about a gas chamber usable through pressure? I mean, through fermentation or other biological process, gas could be accumulated in an elastic chamber, the increase in gas pressure with limited volume would high the temperature (that makes easier the combustion), when the creature wants to "spit it" a kinda-tube opens and releases at high pressure in a straight direction (mouth or whatever), given the fact that is a gas, it should be easier to ignite with a spark.

It could be factible to avoid hurting yourself with fire through sudoration of a non-combustible liquid, or maybe a strong exterior (scales are harder to burn, specially when high on minerals).

Im not to sure about the spark, minerals colliding seems the most factible. To make it ignite by electricity without touching it (to avoid burns) you would need a very high voltage, enough to maybe not making it viable because of energy use. Its common sense that fire could start on some other place (like lighting), then u grab a stick, it starts to burn and maybe u can carry with it and spit a flamable liquid or something?

Just ideas, sorry if it doesnt make sense.
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