| Statistics | We have 1675 registered users
The newest registered user is dejo123
Our users have posted a total of 30851 messages in 1411 subjects
|
| Who is online? | In total there are 2 users online :: 0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 2 Guests None Most users ever online was 443 on Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:41 pm |
| Latest topics | » THIS FORUM IS NOW OBSOLETE
 by NickTheNick Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:26 pm
» To all the people who come here looking for thrive.
by NickTheNick Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:22 pm
» Build Error Code::Blocks / CMake
by crovea Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:28 pm
» Hello! I can translate in japanese
by tjwhale Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:23 pm
» On Leave (Offline thread)
by NickTheNick Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:20 am
» Devblog #14: A Brave New Forum
by NickTheNick Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:49 am
» Application for Programmer
by crovea Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:14 am
» Re-Reapplication
by The Creator Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:57 pm
» Application (programming)
by crovea Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:00 am
» Achieving Sapience
by MitochondriaBox Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:03 pm
» Microbe Stage GDD
by tjwhale Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:44 pm
» Application for Programmer/ Theorist
by tjwhale Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:56 am
» Application for a 3D Modeler.
by Kaiju4u Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:16 am
» Presentation
by Othithu Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:38 am
» Application of Sorts
by crovea Sun May 31, 2015 5:06 pm
» want to contribute
by Renzope Sun May 31, 2015 12:58 pm
» Music List Thread (Post New Themes Here)
by Oliveriver Thu May 28, 2015 1:06 pm
» Application: English-Spanish translator
by Renzope Tue May 26, 2015 1:53 pm
» Want to be promoter or project manager
by TheBudderBros Sun May 24, 2015 9:00 pm
» A new round of Forum Revamps!
by Oliveriver Wed May 20, 2015 11:32 am
|
| | | extinction |  |
|
+10Rorsten594 Silver Sterling kingTherapsids Deathbite42 penumbra espinosa Mysterious_Calligrapher Commander Keen ~sciocont The Uteen mike roberts 14 posters | | Author | Message |
|---|
mike roberts
Learner
Posts : 103
Reputation : 3
Join date : 2010-09-05
Age : 28
Location : United States
 | | Subject: extinction Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:05 am | |
| i am just saying we would have to implement this in some way i don't mean like spore's stupid " you kill 3 animals of the same species and they go extinct" i mean realistically like if u do kill a lot of a species they will go extinct ,or if you kill there main food source they will go extinct from that or adapt just , I want to see how we are going to incorporate this because we will need this to make it more realistic | |
|  | | The Uteen
Sandbox Team Lead
Posts : 1476
Reputation : 70
Join date : 2010-07-06
Age : 27
Location : England, Virgo Supercluster
| | Subject: Re: extinction Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:39 am | |
| Well, you just kill all of them and they will go extinct, because if there are none left they cannot reproduce. We aren't going to have babies appearing from nowhere, so once they are dead, they're dead. Or, if there is just a male/female, it cannot reproduce and so that species is as good as extinct, it's just a matter of time.
This does mean it is hard to wipe out species, and that's the way it should be. If I killed three ants, I don't think they'd become extinct. | |
| | | | mike roberts
Learner
Posts : 103
Reputation : 3
Join date : 2010-09-05
Age : 28
Location : United States
| | Subject: Re: extinction Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:17 pm | |
| thank you, but what about there food source like lets say my creature is an herbivore and it eats all of this certain fruits in an area, if another creature depends those fruits for survival what would happen? should we even implement this? | |
| | | | ~sciocont
Overall Team Lead
Posts : 3406
Reputation : 138
Join date : 2010-07-06
| | Subject: Re: extinction Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:50 pm | |
| I'm really glad someone brought up extinction, because with the type of arbitrary mechanics we're using, extinction might be diffiult to deal with. In the real world, there are small and large extinctions- small is when one species goes extinct because it can't adapt to a new challenge, large is when the world changes very quickly and you get massive die-offs (like the permian, cretaceous, etc.) | |
| | | | Commander Keen
Industrial Team Lead
Posts : 1123
Reputation : 36
Join date : 2010-07-23
Location : Czech Republic (not that anyone would know where it is...)
| | Subject: Re: extinction Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:23 pm | |
| I think we will have to make ideal conditions for species, like atmosphere or temperature, and then compare these with evolution. If there's a change sudden enough that evolution can't keep the pace, creature numbers will go down.
Things like predators could be handled by adding numbers of picked predatory species together. Maybe these could be determined by size? (0.75-5x size of your organism) | |
| | | | mike roberts
Learner
Posts : 103
Reputation : 3
Join date : 2010-09-05
Age : 28
Location : United States
| | Subject: Re: extinction Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:29 pm | |
| yeah along with that if there is a decline in the main predator in the area the population of species will go up with the change and a new creature that is more well adapted can assume the dominate role | |
| | | | The Uteen
Sandbox Team Lead
Posts : 1476
Reputation : 70
Join date : 2010-07-06
Age : 27
Location : England, Virgo Supercluster
| | Subject: Re: extinction Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:50 pm | |
| - mike roberts wrote:
- yeah along with that if there is a decline in the main predator in the area the population of species will go up with the change and a new creature that is more well adapted can assume the dominate role
The predator can survive, and take back the dominant role, over and over again: If the main predator's population declines, the prey's population grows rapidly. This makes it easier for the remaining predators, so the preys' population begins to fall again and the predators' population grows. They then begin competing for the now small amounts of prey, so their population drops again. This causes a huge cycle of populous predators and prey. This happens a lot in nature, I think this should be accounted for in game, too, somehow. This would also vary the difficulty every now and then, making it more interesting to the player. Sorry for going off topic, I do that. | |
| | | | Mysterious_Calligrapher
Biome Team Lead
Posts : 1034
Reputation : 26
Join date : 2010-11-26
Age : 32
Location : Earth, the solar system, the milky way...
| | Subject: Re: extinction Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:05 pm | |
| This space reserved for me digging out my ENVS/Ecology notes and spamming you with the mechanics of population. I just belgiumming love math. X/ Math Dump: the simple and slightly more in-depth way that we could implement population/extinction. - Spoiler:
The growth of a population over a period of time = (Born+Immigrated)-(died+emigrated)
Also known as Sum of stuff in - sum of stuff out.
every species has a biotic potential (r)
If a species has unlimited resources, then they will grow exponentially.
This equation is change in number/change in time = r*Population.
If there are limits, however, a species will grow logistically, having a certain carrying capacity determined by the amount of resources they get to use, as well as by the prevalence of predators.
Logistic growth: Change in number/change in time = r*Population ([Capacity-Population]/Capacity])
Let's do some examples. I have 5 grizzly bears. Their arbitrary biotic potential is 2, for reasons of simplicity.
Plugging this in for exponential growth:
Change in number/1 [year] = 2*5 (this mess has been simplified to dN/1 year = 10)
At the end of the year, you have 10 more grizzly bears, leading to a total of 15. Next year, you have an increase in 30, leaving you with 45, assuming that none have died. In the third year, they make a stupid cgi movie about your bear population, and your tourist revenues drop dramatically.
Unrealistic? Yes. Aside from the fact that your grizzly bears should not be routinely tripling their population, some are going to die. And sooner or later you'll run out of picnic baskets at jellystone, and your bears will all starve to death.
Logistic growth forms a graph that ends up looking like a demented S.
Arbitrary Jellystone capacity set to 60 bears.
Change in number/ 1 [year] = 2*5([60-5]/60)
Simplify: dN/1 =10*0.9166666666...on and on ad nauseam
End result: 9.16666 ad nauseam.
You increased by 9.17 bears, bringing your park total up to 14.17...
Acually, I lied. You can't have 0.17 of a bear. A lone paw, or eyeball wandering jellystone's really going to kill your tourism. Round up.
end of year 1: +10 = 15 bears (as compared to 15)
Year 2: +23 = 38 bears (as compared to 45)
Year 3: +28 bears = 66 bears (as compared to 135 and aforementioned stupid CGI.)
This is over carrying capacity. Oops - My biotic potential is too high. Or is it? Bears are k-selected, which means that they have high infant survival, which decreases with age. So in actuality, you probably have less than 66 bears. Remember that carrying capacity is an estimate, and that it fluctuates based on available resources. Also, 2 is a ridiculous number for biotic potential. Even bacteria can only double themselves every hour - my example was tripling the population.
Programming:
Arbitrary values of available resources (excluding those consumed by other groups or species) /necessary resources per individual = carrying capacity
This will be constantly updated in reference to planetary conditions, and will take into account ONLY THOSE RESOURCES NECESSARY FOR SURVIVAL. (Food, shelter, etc,) and not those necessary for innovations/advancement/doing fun new things with your TE.
Your biotic potential will be determined, in reverse, from your carrying capacity, using the logistics model. Therefore it will fluctuate.
Your actual population is (Logistic growth) - (constantly updated death factor, taking into account fluctuations in the predator population, and the lack/availability of enough resources to feed your critters.)
Ideally, this will create a feedback loop large enough to encompass the whole ecosystem, with every change in one group's population causing changes in the others. Sound like a lot? Remember that this is one of the
primary factors that drives evolution and adapted.
Extinction can be handled two ways:
1) No resources: Your carrying capacity has been driven down to ridiculously low numbers. Resource availability should be updated a lot - whenever we update carrying capacity and population, which won't be every second, as that would be murder on our play speed, but at regular intervals.
2) predation - your predation/death rate is higher than your population growth for long enough that you eventually dwindle out of existence.
3) your death rate is higher than your carrying capacity - epic fail.
If your creature goes extinct, it no longer affects it's prey's death rate, which will go down (causing a population jump) but is a missing resource for its predators, causing a population drop. If your species is important enough, this could very well cause extinction by resource depletion in its predators, (obviously) and prey (as their sudden population boom will use up too many resources.)
Population smarts - don't leave home without them.
Calli, over and out.
| |
| | | | ~sciocont
Overall Team Lead
Posts : 3406
Reputation : 138
Join date : 2010-07-06
| | Subject: Re: extinction Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:31 pm | |
| Nice population mechanics. | |
| | | | penumbra espinosa
Learner
Posts : 139
Reputation : 5
Join date : 2010-09-10
Age : 32
| | Subject: Re: extinction Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:00 pm | |
| as i seed the concepts, extinctions are pretty simple, we have to determine a rate of disasters (regional or global) and let the extinction ratio to be adjusted by the player. or make it adjustable as part of the god mode.
extinctions come in several "flavors", each one of them is a challenge for the player because their species survival depends in its actions in the past and in the present. in the past because of its adaptations and in the present because it haves to deal with a new environment and haves to fill one of the open niches quickly or he will go extinct...
the point here is the extinction ratio...i heard that mass extinctions on earth have an average time of 100 million years of difference. interglacial periods tend to last only 20 thousand years while ice ages last for 500 thousand years...
the success of the extinctions will come if we get a way
to make them adjustable and random at the same time.... | |
| | | | Mysterious_Calligrapher
Biome Team Lead
Posts : 1034
Reputation : 26
Join date : 2010-11-26
Age : 32
Location : Earth, the solar system, the milky way...
| | Subject: Re: extinction Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:37 am | |
| Disasters of all flavors fit into the programming model above as steep hikes in the death rate (due to disease or whatever else you wish) or steep drops in the available resources. I don't think that we should have anything specifically designed to wipe species out - after all, a species will survive multiple disasters - but these disasters definitely will speed up adaptation in some and knock off others.
My idea for disaster implementation was:
1) The random diseases Scio's already got covered. Sharp increase in death rate.
2) Earthquakes/floods/tornadoes etc: No idea how they will be programmed, but they will cause disruption of Biomes and therefore disruption of resources.
3) Resources are tied into Biomes. This will be discussed in much greater depth when we have more biomes, but all of the absolute necessaries can be found in each biome, and disrupting them is a horrible, horrrible idea. It most likely will cause large die offs if it happens quickly, (rather than at the ultra-slow rate that is secession) and since most large-scale extinctions are tied into a change in habitat, this is probably our biggest killer.
/Calli's overexplanation. | |
| | | | Deathbite42
Regular
Posts : 212
Reputation : -3
Join date : 2012-07-27
| | Subject: Re: extinction Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:25 pm | |
| - Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
- This space reserved for me digging out my ENVS/Ecology notes and spamming you with the mechanics of population. I just belgiumming love math. X/
Math Dump: the simple and slightly more in-depth way that we could implement population/extinction.
- Spoiler:
The growth of a population over a period of time = (Born+Immigrated)-(died+emigrated)
Also known as Sum of stuff in - sum of stuff out.
every species has a biotic potential (r)
If a species has unlimited resources, then they will grow exponentially.
This equation is change in number/change in time = r*Population.
If there are limits, however, a species will grow logistically, having a certain carrying capacity determined by the amount of resources they get to use, as well as by the prevalence of predators.
Logistic growth: Change in number/change in time = r*Population ([Capacity-Population]/Capacity])
Let's do some examples. I have 5 grizzly bears. Their arbitrary biotic potential is 2, for reasons of simplicity.
Plugging this in for exponential growth:
Change in number/1 [year] = 2*5 (this mess has been simplified to dN/1 year = 10)
At the end of the year, you have 10 more grizzly bears, leading to a total of 15. Next year, you have an increase in 30, leaving you with 45, assuming that none have died. In the third year, they make a stupid cgi movie about your bear population, and your tourist revenues drop dramatically.
Unrealistic? Yes. Aside from the fact that your grizzly bears should not be routinely tripling their population, some are going to die. And sooner or later you'll run out of picnic baskets at jellystone, and your bears will all starve to death.
Logistic growth forms a graph that ends up looking like a demented S.
Arbitrary Jellystone capacity set to 60 bears.
Change in number/ 1 [year] = 2*5([60-5]/60)
Simplify: dN/1 =10*0.9166666666...on and on ad nauseam
End result: 9.16666 ad nauseam.
You increased by 9.17 bears, bringing your park total up to 14.17...
Acually, I lied. You can't have 0.17 of a bear. A lone paw, or eyeball wandering jellystone's really going to kill your tourism. Round up.
end of year 1: +10 = 15 bears (as compared to 15)
Year 2: +23 = 38 bears (as compared to 45)
Year 3: +28 bears = 66 bears (as compared to 135 and aforementioned stupid CGI.)
This is over carrying capacity. Oops - My biotic potential is too high. Or is it? Bears are k-selected, which means that they have high infant survival, which decreases with age. So in actuality, you probably have less than 66 bears. Remember that carrying capacity is an estimate, and that it fluctuates based on available resources. Also, 2 is a ridiculous number for biotic potential. Even bacteria can only double themselves every hour - my example was tripling the population.
Programming:
Arbitrary values of available resources (excluding those consumed by other groups or species) /necessary resources per individual = carrying capacity
This will be constantly updated in reference to planetary conditions, and will take into account ONLY THOSE RESOURCES NECESSARY FOR SURVIVAL. (Food, shelter, etc,) and not those necessary for innovations/advancement/doing fun new things with your TE.
Your biotic potential will be determined, in reverse, from your carrying capacity, using the logistics model. Therefore it will fluctuate.
Your actual population is (Logistic growth) - (constantly updated death factor, taking into account fluctuations in the predator population, and the lack/availability of enough resources to feed your critters.)
Ideally, this will create a feedback loop large enough to encompass the whole ecosystem, with every change in one group's population causing changes in the others. Sound like a lot? Remember that this is one of the
primary factors that drives evolution and adapted.
Extinction can be handled two ways:
1) No resources: Your carrying capacity has been driven down to ridiculously low numbers. Resource availability should be updated a lot - whenever we update carrying capacity and population, which won't be every second, as that would be murder on our play speed, but at regular intervals.
2) predation - your predation/death rate is higher than your population growth for long enough that you eventually dwindle out of existence.
3) your death rate is higher than your carrying capacity - epic fail.
If your creature goes extinct, it no longer affects it's prey's death rate, which will go down (causing a population jump) but is a missing resource for its predators, causing a population drop. If your species is important enough, this could very well cause extinction by resource depletion in its predators, (obviously) and prey (as their sudden population boom will use up too many resources.)
Population smarts - don't leave home without them.
Calli, over and out.
Round down, not up. If there are enough berries to feed half a bear, it will not mean you get that bear. It means you WON'T and those berries will be left till they build up enough to feed a bear or more. Than, the number of bears that can feed on the new berries will be added, starting everything all over again. | |
| | | | Deathbite42
Regular
Posts : 212
Reputation : -3
Join date : 2012-07-27
| | Subject: Re: extinction Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:27 pm | |
| - Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
- Disasters of all flavors fit into the programming model above as steep hikes in the death rate (due to disease or whatever else you wish) or steep drops in the available resources. I don't think that we should have anything specifically designed to wipe species out - after all, a species will survive multiple disasters - but these disasters definitely will speed up adaptation in some and knock off others.
My idea for disaster implementation was:
1) The random diseases Scio's already got covered. Sharp increase in death rate.
2) Earthquakes/floods/tornadoes etc: No idea how they will be programmed, but they will cause disruption of Biomes and therefore disruption of resources.
3) Resources are tied into Biomes. This will be discussed in much greater depth when we have more biomes, but all of the absolute necessaries can be found in each biome, and disrupting them is a horrible, horrrible idea. It most likely will cause large die offs if it happens quickly, (rather than at the ultra-slow rate that is secession) and since most large-scale extinctions are tied into a change in habitat, this is probably our biggest killer.
/Calli's overexplanation. But extinctions CAN wipe species out. Think of T-rex. Perhaps there are "birds" but those do not descend directly from T-rex. | |
| | | | kingTherapsids
Newcomer
Posts : 10
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-09-11
Age : 28
Location : USA! USA! USA!....crap im falling for nationalism... XD
| | Subject: Re: extinction Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:07 pm | |
| if anyone hasn't already mentions this idea id love to say this!
how about like in sim city you trigger invasions meteors and stuff. but do that here! it would be a cool challenge for the player, even have a random thing based on difficulty. | |
| | | | Silver Sterling
Newcomer
Posts : 96
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-08-24
Age : 42
Location : Germaney
| | Subject: Re: extinction Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:51 pm | |
| There has been already discussed about difficult sliders and i would be glad to see one as random catastrophes aswell.
And for making one by yourself like in sim city, you would be able to do so in the sandbox mode. | |
| | | | Rorsten594
Newcomer
Posts : 82
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2012-09-13
Age : 24
Location : Earth,Canada
| | Subject: Re: extinction Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:11 pm | |
| - Silver Sterling wrote:
- There has been already discussed about difficult sliders and i would be glad to see one as random catastrophes aswell.
And for making one by yourself like in sim city, you would be able to do so in the sandbox mode. Would extinctions affect evo | |
| | | | The Uteen
Sandbox Team Lead
Posts : 1476
Reputation : 70
Join date : 2010-07-06
Age : 27
Location : England, Virgo Supercluster
| | Subject: Re: extinction Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:22 am | |
| - Rorsten594 wrote:
- Silver Sterling wrote:
- There has been already discussed about difficult sliders and i would be glad to see one as random catastrophes aswell.
And for making one by yourself like in sim city, you would be able to do so in the sandbox mode.
Would extinctions affect evo
If a creatures becomes extinct, another new/existing organism would have to take it's niche. The npc auto-evo thread ( link) has auto-evo's detailed details, in detail. | |
| | | | Silver Sterling
Newcomer
Posts : 96
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-08-24
Age : 42
Location : Germaney
| | Subject: Re: extinction Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:24 pm | |
| Realistically seen, it could also give a species who would extinct if the other species doesn't extinct (could be a danger in the future) give a better chance to survive. | |
| | | | Rorsten594
Newcomer
Posts : 82
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2012-09-13
Age : 24
Location : Earth,Canada
| | Subject: Re: extinction Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:55 pm | |
| What would happen if a mass extinction happened in a biome would the entire ecosystem collapse | |
| | | | Zetal
Newcomer
Posts : 81
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2011-12-18
Age : 31
Location : Earth, USA
| | Subject: Re: extinction Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:22 am | |
| I think that if a species that was pivotal to the structure of an environment went extinct too quickly, yes. If it was gradual, the creatures would adapt. | |
| | | | gvd72
Newcomer
Posts : 5
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-10-22
Location : Some where out there...
| | Subject: Re: extinction Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:03 pm | |
| - The Uteen wrote:
- Well, you just kill all of them and they will go extinct, because if there are none left they cannot reproduce. We aren't going to have babies appearing from nowhere, so once they are dead, they're dead. Or, if there is just a male/female, it cannot reproduce and so that species is as good as extinct, it's just a matter of time.
This does mean it is hard to wipe out species, and that's the way it should be. If I killed three ants, I don't think they'd become extinct. Well, how many species are going to be on the planet? Like how many creatures are on your planet? And is this essential to evolution like Spore? I didn't like the idea were you can ally, so is killing and eating evolution or is there a timer or something, when the right time is, you can evolve. Sorry for so many questions, but I can't post a thread yet. | |
| | | | The Uteen
Sandbox Team Lead
Posts : 1476
Reputation : 70
Join date : 2010-07-06
Age : 27
Location : England, Virgo Supercluster
| | Subject: Re: extinction Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:38 am | |
| - gvd72 wrote:
- The Uteen wrote:
- Well, you just kill all of them and they will go extinct, because if there are none left they cannot reproduce. We aren't going to have babies appearing from nowhere, so once they are dead, they're dead. Or, if there is just a male/female, it cannot reproduce and so that species is as good as extinct, it's just a matter of time.
This does mean it is hard to wipe out species, and that's the way it should be. If I killed three ants, I don't think they'd become extinct.
Well, how many species are going to be on the planet? Like how many creatures are on your planet? And is this essential to evolution like Spore? I didn't like the idea were you can ally, so is killing and eating evolution or is there a timer or something, when the right time is, you can evolve. Sorry for so many questions, but I can't post a thread yet. Genocide thankfully isn't a requirement to evolve in Thrive. Instead, we will attempt to simulate a thing called genetic mutations, which change the organism over a period of generations. As for the number of species on a planet… A lot. If anyone knows, I don't. However, I can tell you that the planet is subdivided into biomes, which contain a reasonable number of plants, herbivores, and carnivores (or even a few omnivores). So, assuming about eleven species in a biome (five plant, three herbivore, two carnivore, and an omnivore), and ten biomes on a planet, we might have about 110 species per planet. | |
| | | | Admantus
Posts : 3
Reputation : 0
Join date : 2012-10-20
| | Subject: Re: extinction Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:10 pm | |
| So does that mean that there will be tundra and alpine regions?
Also, what about complex ecosystems? Will those be present? | |
| | | | The Uteen
Sandbox Team Lead
Posts : 1476
Reputation : 70
Join date : 2010-07-06
Age : 27
Location : England, Virgo Supercluster
| | Subject: Re: extinction Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:56 pm | |
| | |
| | | | PerfectOrganismil
Newcomer
Posts : 13
Reputation : -1
Join date : 2013-04-03
Age : 24
| | Subject: Re: extinction Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:11 pm | |
| Well a mass extinction could occur from things we already know have cause mass extinctions. These are all based off of animal armageddon btw.
Supervolcano, Gamma Rays, Asteriod, Continental break up like what happened with Pangea, or a shortage of food. And if you go by today's standards I estimate in about 1 million years Global Warming would make a HUGE variety of life to go extinct if they do not adapt in time, it is already almost too late for the polar bear though... I will miss those things.:cry: | |
| | | | Sponsored content
| | Subject: Re: extinction | |
| |
| | | | | | extinction | |
|
| | Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |
