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 Multiple Saves Dialemma

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The Uteen
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PostSubject: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:30 am

Once your first game has unlocked every godly research and reaches ascension, you start a new save, right? That's the general idea we are getting with multiple saves.

Now, if you have reached ascension, and you start a new save, elsewhere in the galaxy, you can always go back to that first save.

You get a fair way into your save, maybe you have a creature, competing with another race over food. Now...

You go back into your first save and play around in observer mode, creating planets, terraforming planets, blowing up planets, all the usual stuff. But then you stumble across your other save's home planet...

You see the creature you are competing against and decide you could easily spark a deadly plague to wipe out that entire species, or you could just launch each one of them high into the sky, or you could bury them all alive, or get a giant magnifying glass to roast them all, or you could create a temporary mini black hole inside each one to crush them into a pea, from the inside, and enjoy watching them all suffer as their guts suck them inside themselves, or..........

The point is, what's to stop you seeing your own planet and assisting the other save?
Or, more importantly, if you saved with your creature looking at a member of the enemy species, then they get wiped out by the other save, what would happen to that last one?
More importantly, what would happen to the organism being controlled if it was seen in the other save? Would it move when you return to the save? Could it be killed by the other save?
Could you blow up the save's moon? Could you blow up the save's planet?

As you can see, I have some questions without answers.
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:24 pm

We COULD do what Spore did and implement a lookey no touchey rule on saves, however when I first dicovered that trying to planet bust my sister's save, I was very disappointed.

Alternatively, we could make it galactic law not to interfere with less intelligent species [eg. anything not in space] so if you tried it the galactic police would come and stop you or something like that.

Otherwise we could just allow it and treat the save as just a normal save, and maybe have an achievement like 'Joker' in spore for when you interfere with a save, not allowing you to gain any more achievements with that race?
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:25 pm

FrogEmpire wrote:


Alternatively, we could make it galactic law not to interfere with less intelligent species [eg. anything not in space] so if you tried it the galactic police would come and stop you or something like that.


That'd suck. a lot.

Back to the point, I guess if you saved as a critter and then loaded your godmode, and messed with the critter, oddness would happen. But I think we are a bit too early to think what -could- happen considering we don't even have an engine or file system to look at. Once those things are in place we could go figure out save-to-save relations
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:43 am

Please dear Belgium no space cops...
This is an interesting dilemma. I'm not quite sure what to do about it.

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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:58 pm

When you have unlocked ascension or whatever it's called (I'll call it god tools), you're able to do anything.

If you decide to start up a new species, then you can. When you do start off the new species, I'm assuming you'll be forced to automatically make a save.

I don't see the dilemma. Once you have gotten to god mode, you can do whatever you like.
If you've made the world you're in easy to evolve in, then so be it, but they'll soon realise it will be boring.

Also, we could but it dangerous consuquences like, for example, you make a plague to rid the other race, but know that plague has gotten out of hand and blady blah....

Really, it is up to the player.
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:23 pm

YourBreakfast wrote:
When you have unlocked ascension or whatever it's called (I'll call it god tools), you're able to do anything.

If you decide to start up a new species, then you can. When you do start off the new species, I'm assuming you'll be forced to automatically make a save.

I don't see the dilemma. Once you have gotten to god mode, you can do whatever you like.
If you've made the world you're in easy to evolve in, then so be it, but they'll soon realise it will be boring.

Also, we could but it dangerous consuquences like, for example, you make a plague to rid the other race, but know that plague has gotten out of hand and blady blah....

Really, it is up to the player.

That's making another race in the same save... That's different, you still have god tools in that situation, so you could mess with your creature anyway...

Also, on your ascension & god tool confusion: A god tool needs an enormous machine, probably so big it needs to be constructed in space, with a very good supply of energy to work. Once you ascend, however, you can do what the machine does 'for free'.
Ascension needs the ascension gate, possibly also constructed in space, and once a member of your species goes through, you gain ascension. Ascension removes whatever limits we are having as to where you can see in the universe.

Ooh, just had an idea: Could the enormous machine constructed in space be called 'God Machine'? That sounds a good name, very epic.

In Game Announcement wrote:
You have built your first GOD MACHINE!
You now have your first god machine - this is a great contrivance, with to power to manipulate the universe itself to your will!
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:10 pm

The Uteen wrote:
Ascension needs the ascension gate, possibly also constructed in space, and once a member of your species goes through, you gain ascension.

It does not work that way. At least ONE member of your species have to go through to gain ascension, and then he is everywhere because he "faded with the universe". Your entire race DOESN'T have to go through to gain ascension, though a considerable part of your population will if they have enough freedom.

The Uteen wrote:
Ooh, just had an idea: Could the enormous machine constructed in space be called 'God Machine'? That sounds a good name, very epic.

I think the God tool machines should be just TOs with huge God tool FPs slapped on them. So you can either make an universal huge machine, or just smaller ones for each tool. (Don't forget that they have go through the Ascension gate too if you want to have them as God Tools).
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:39 pm

Commander Keen wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
Ascension needs the ascension gate, possibly also constructed in space, and once a member of your species goes through, you gain ascension.

It does not work that way. At least ONE member of your species have to go through to gain ascension, and then he is everywhere because he "faded with the universe". Your entire race DOESN'T have to go through to gain ascension, though a considerable part of your population will if they have enough freedom.
I said a member of your species, that does mean one member, so yes, at least one member. Did you just read it wrong?

Commander Keen wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
Ooh, just had an idea: Could the enormous machine constructed in space be called 'God Machine'? That sounds a good name, very epic.

I think the God tool machines should be just TOs with huge God tool FPs slapped on them. So you can either make an universal huge machine, or just smaller ones for each tool. (Don't forget that they have go through the Ascension gate too if you want to have them as God Tools).
Yes, but the FPs will have to be very big, and so are probably going to need to be made in space... Doing something this big needs a lot of machine.

And does the name God Machine sound good to people?
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:03 pm

Personally I think "ascention gate" (spelling?!) has a nicer ring to it.

We could call the acheivement for godhood "deus ex machina "
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:57 pm

Djohaal wrote:
Personally I think "ascention gate" (spelling?!) has a nicer ring to it.

We could call the acheivement for godhood "deus ex machina "

The Ascension Gate would be a form of God Machine. All the God Tools would have equivalent God Machines.
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:19 pm

The Uteen wrote:
Djohaal wrote:
Personally I think "ascention gate" (spelling?!) has a nicer ring to it.

We could call the acheivement for godhood "deus ex machina "

The Ascension Gate would be a form of God Machine. All the God Tools would have equivalent God Machines.

Oh I get what you mean now! This is an interesting solution to my idea of spending energy to do god actions, but instead you didn't ascend yet.
Perhaps they could be connected to a galaxy-wide energy network that spanned dyson spheres and other monstrosities?
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:22 pm

Djohaal wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
Djohaal wrote:
Personally I think "ascention gate" (spelling?!) has a nicer ring to it.

We could call the acheivement for godhood "deus ex machina "

The Ascension Gate would be a form of God Machine. All the God Tools would have equivalent God Machines.

Oh I get what you mean now! This is an interesting solution to my idea of spending energy to do god actions, but instead you didn't ascend yet.
Perhaps they could be connected to a galaxy-wide energy network that spanned dyson spheres and other monstrosities?

Galaxy wide might be a bit over the top, players probably wont be able to explore the entire galaxy, never might find enough resources to build dyson spheres around them!

But the god machines could require the power of a dozen exploding supernovas. Maybe we could say the galactic core must be used, too? I think that would make it seem like a monumental thing to be doing... Maybe it is the only black hole big enough to warp spacetime to the extend that it creates a tear in the universe itself? Not too Sporey (no Steve), not particularly accurate, but maybe accurate sounding enough that we could get away with it and make it a truly epic pre-finale. (The finale being ascension)

If the god machines harness this tear in spacetime, maybe the ascension gate could stabile the tear, allowing you passage through... It's unlikely that purely technology itself could allow ascension, but combine it with a manifestation of dimensions; a tear in the fabric of spacetime...

So does harnessing the power of many supernovas to manipulate the very essence of the universe, until finally you can provide stability to the chaos and pass through into the unknown beyond the laws of physics itself sound a good way implement godly technologies?
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:03 pm

Yes, but how would you harness the power of a dozen superonvas without a dyson sphere or some other megaengineering project? Magic?

The problem with usage of the galactic core bumps into the savegames issue we were originally discussing. If you tapped the galactic core on your first playthrough, will the next playthroughs have to use your former ruins?

EDIT: I'd personally prefer the god machines be constructed on a "local" basis. when I said galaxy-wide I mean, a network big enough that spans a significant chunk of the galaxy, not the WHOLE galaxy. I reckon once a civilization acheived so much technology to be able to build such devices, making artificial blackholes to power the machines would be peice of cake...
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:12 pm

Djohaal wrote:
Yes, but how would you harness the power of a dozen superonvas without a dyson sphere or some other megaengineering project? Magic?

The problem with usage of the galactic core bumps into the savegames issue we were originally discussing. If you tapped the galactic core on your first playthrough, will the next playthroughs have to use your former ruins?
What? I didn't say we couldn't use dyson spheres! I just said we probably would run out of resources before we managed to fill the whole galaxy. That and we would die of old age before we managed it.

And multiple saves, yes...Maybe passing through the gate+tear pulls the entire gate in on itself? Once it lets the organism/planet (planet would be better, I like the idea of sending a planet through) through, it cannot keep the tear stable any longer, and due to it being so close to the tear it collapses through behind you?
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:22 pm

The Uteen wrote:
Djohaal wrote:
Yes, but how would you harness the power of a dozen superonvas without a dyson sphere or some other megaengineering project? Magic?

The problem with usage of the galactic core bumps into the savegames issue we were originally discussing. If you tapped the galactic core on your first playthrough, will the next playthroughs have to use your former ruins?
What? I didn't say we couldn't use dyson spheres! I just said we probably would run out of resources before we managed to fill the whole galaxy. That and we would die of old age before we managed it.

And multiple saves, yes...Maybe passing through the gate+tear pulls the entire gate in on itself? Once it lets the organism/planet (planet would be better, I like the idea of sending a planet through) through, it cannot keep the tear stable any longer, and due to it being so close to the tear it collapses through behind you?

..I don't think I ever mentoined covering the whole galaxy with dyson spheres... Oh the discomunication!
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:30 pm

Djohaal wrote:
Perhaps they could be connected to a galaxy-wide energy network

This is the phrase that gave me the impression you meant a galaxy-wide dyson sphere project.

And for transferring the energy, the player would naturally choose to make almost a web of dyson-sphered stars around the core. Its very nature would make it turn out cool!
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:45 pm

The Uteen wrote:
Djohaal wrote:
Perhaps they could be connected to a galaxy-wide energy network

This is the phrase that gave me the impression you meant a galaxy-wide dyson sphere project.

And for transferring the energy, the player would naturally choose to make almost a web of dyson-sphered stars around the core. Its very nature would make it turn out cool!

I plan on rendering a concept of that already
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:10 pm

The Uteen wrote:
I said a member of your species, that does mean one member, so yes, at least one member. Did you just read it wrong?

Yeah, I did read it as "every member". I'm really sorry for that, I feel like if i was blind.

The Uteen wrote:
Yes, but the FPs will have to be very big, and so are probably going to need to be made in space... Doing something this big needs a lot of machine.

Well, they will have to be big, but it seems as if you are taking it being as big as gas giants. The only benefit of having them space-based would be way better mobility.

The Uteen wrote:
But the god machines could require the power of a dozen exploding supernovas. Maybe we could say the galactic core must be used, too?

I did the maths a few weeks ago. A fraction of energy of exploding supernova would be enough to destroy any planet in our solar system if used properly, so a link to a dyson sphere should be enough (with the exception of ascension of bigger objects or groups of people, and creating space bodies).

The Uteen wrote:
And does the name God Machine sound good to people?

Sounds great.

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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:29 pm

Commander Keen wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
But the god machines could require the power of a dozen exploding supernovas. Maybe we could say the galactic core must be used, too?

I did the maths a few weeks ago. A fraction of energy of exploding supernova would be enough to destroy any planet in our solar system if used properly, so a link to a dyson sphere should be enough (with the exception of ascension of bigger objects or groups of people, and creating space bodies).





Wow, that is a lot of energy! I want one!

But can we still have that link to the galactic core (AKA the supermassive black hole in the center of the galaxy) with the tear in spacetime? Because we don't want god machines to come straight after dyson spheres... I imagine the tear could focus the energy in a specific way, and raise it out of the boundaries of the laws of physics, and then it hits its destination and does its thing... I'm not saying this would work in real life, but neither will half the god machines, so...

Also, Maybe five dyson spheres to stabilise the tear? I want the ascension gate to use a lot of energy, making it very, very difficult to get. It is the finale to the entire game, it should be tough. Five dyson spheres will need a lot of resources, a lot of energy to construct, and time, don't forget the time... Then you'll be thinking about making the ascension gate, which will have to be carefully made around the tear...

But yeah, I want a dyson sphere now. You know, it might be pretty handy stopping global warming and stuff like that. It might even provide enough energy to run Thrive! Now where did I leave Deep Thought...
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:57 pm

Actually IRL dyson spheres might not even be viable. They can collapse due to their own weight.

Now that you mention global warming, what about other megaengineering projects such as orbital reflectors to cool down planets, orbital habitats and non-godly terraforming? (eg, grab some ice meteors, stick some rockets on them and dump on mars)

A big enough mirror could be pointed at a planet to provide it with extra sunlight and warmith. I recall the capital world of rheinland in freelancer had something like that because it was so fucking icy.

what about /threading this and starting a new thread dedicated to discussing of megaengineering projects such as dyson spheres, ringworlds, etc etc etc
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:16 pm

Djohaal wrote:
what about /threading this and starting a new thread dedicated to discussing of megaengineering projects such as dyson spheres, ringworlds, etc etc etc

Already working on.



Edit: Done.


Discuss Godly Machines here: http://thrivegame.canadaboard.net/god-tools-f13/god-mode-summary-t43.htm

Discuss megastructures here: http://thrivegame.canadaboard.net/strategy-f12/megastructures-t365.htm#7479


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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:23 pm

Commander Keen wrote:
Djohaal wrote:
what about /threading this and starting a new thread dedicated to discussing of megaengineering projects such as dyson spheres, ringworlds, etc etc etc

Already working on.


Discuss Godly Machines here: http://thrivegame.canadaboard.net/god-tools-f13/god-mode-summary-t43.htm
Wow, just noticed we are very off topic.
And looking back, it is my fault. I explained about god tools and started a new discussion...

Anyway, back on topic, resuming from about halfway down the last page, we still have no solution to the problem stated in the first post. A page and a half well used!
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:29 pm

The Uteen wrote:
Wow, just noticed we are very off topic.
And looking back, it is my fault. I explained about god tools and started a new discussion...

Anyway, back on topic, resuming from about halfway down the last page, we still have no solution to the problem stated in the first post. A page and a half well used!

Look at the post above, I have linked to a thread for further discussions.

As to the problem from the first post, ideally there would be no restrictions (ie the place would be fully controlled by AI if the player visited it). However, there could be serious technical problems with that (such as saving all the information twice, once for each of the saves). We'll see when an actual alpha will be out.
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:36 pm

Actually what if the galaxy itself was a persistent meta-save, and your "saves" would just be webs of interaction that added extra detail?

There'd be a reset galaxy button around for obvious reasons though. Persistent metaworlds can get interesting.
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PostSubject: Re: Multiple Saves Dialemma   Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:41 pm

Commander Keen wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
Wow, just noticed we are very off topic.
And looking back, it is my fault. I explained about god tools and started a new discussion...

Anyway, back on topic, resuming from about halfway down the last page, we still have no solution to the problem stated in the first post. A page and a half well used!

Look at the post above, I have linked to a thread for further discussions.

As to the problem from the first post, ideally there would be no restrictions (ie the place would be fully controlled by AI if the player visited it). However, there could be serious technical problems with that (such as saving all the information twice, once for each of the saves). We'll see when an actual alpha will be out.
That post was the reason I noticed.

But that's the trouble. If AI controls the organisms, your organism could have moved, or worse, died, when you resume.

I guess all you can say to that is the trademark Nelson "Haw haw!".

EDIT: Could you explain what you mean, Djohaal? Don't really understand the post, sorry.


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