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 Organ physiology

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Djohaal
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PostSubject: Organ physiology   Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:27 pm

Just some thoughts, for the organ editor.

Respiratory:

Trachea volume to lung volume ratio should be important, because air in the trachea is considereed "dead space" which does no gas exchange, so a lung with the shortest trachea possible would be most interesting.

Cardio: I think the main point here is cardiovascular capacity. Bigger hearts consume more base energy, but allow more sprint time?

Brain: A big problem. Relatively large poritons of the brain are dedicated to controlling movements and understanding the senses. So the more limbs you add (and the better appendages) the more gray substance you'd need just to control them, not to mention the extra required for sapience. Also gyrii.
As a real life example, I read once that octopi lack propioception. That means that while they can feel their tentacles and move them actively, they have no darn idea where they are in relation to the body. They'd need bigger brains to do that.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ physiology   Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:29 pm

Djohaal wrote:


Trachea volume to lung volume ratio should be important, because air in the trachea is considereed "dead space" which does no gas exchange, so a lung with the shortest trachea possible would be most interesting.
What about with Gills, or other methods of gas exchange than just lungs?
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PostSubject: Re: Organ physiology   Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:45 pm

DragonEye4 wrote:
Djohaal wrote:


Trachea volume to lung volume ratio should be important, because air in the trachea is considereed "dead space" which does no gas exchange, so a lung with the shortest trachea possible would be most interesting.
What about with Gills, or other methods of gas exchange than just lungs?
Gills are very efficient because all of their surface area is devoted to gas exchange and there's no big tubes leading to them.

What effects can these really have on the OE though? The organs tab right now is pretty simple, but since the organs will be inside anyway, we don't need to paty a whole lot of attention to them.

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PostSubject: Re: Organ physiology   Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:51 pm

unless it is going to simulate air demand and etc, there's no point to this.
Brain size does has a point though. You'd need a bigger head (or somewhere else to hold the brain) to have enough mental faculties...
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PostSubject: Re: Organ physiology   Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:32 pm

And remember heat - the brain gets hot, it must be able to get all the excess heat out, that's part why many creatures have heads - Well, also to make most of the senses in one place, higher up, and closer to the brain for faster transferral of information to the brain.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ physiology   Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:54 pm

The Uteen wrote:
And remember heat - the brain gets hot, it must be able to get all the excess heat out, that's part why many creatures have heads - Well, also to make most of the senses in one place, higher up, and closer to the brain for faster transferral of information to the brain.

Implementing physiological heat management would be a wee bit too much I think...
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PostSubject: Re: Organ physiology   Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:04 pm

Djohaal wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
And remember heat - the brain gets hot, it must be able to get all the excess heat out, that's part why many creatures have heads - Well, also to make most of the senses in one place, higher up, and closer to the brain for faster transferral of information to the brain.

Implementing physiological heat management would be a wee bit too much I think...

I still think we need some sort of tendency to evolve heads...
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PostSubject: Re: Organ physiology   Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:10 pm

The Uteen wrote:
Djohaal wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
And remember heat - the brain gets hot, it must be able to get all the excess heat out, that's part why many creatures have heads - Well, also to make most of the senses in one place, higher up, and closer to the brain for faster transferral of information to the brain.

Implementing physiological heat management would be a wee bit too much I think...

I still think we need some sort of tendency to evolve heads...
It's called cephalization- sensory organs and processors get collected towards the front of the creature so that it can better sense what it's going to. I'm not sure how we would encourage it, though, what with an indeterminate auto-evo system.

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PostSubject: Re: Organ physiology   Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:35 pm

Simple - creatures that move forward need to be able to sense what's in front of them. More mobile creature = more cephalization. More "traditional" sense (sight, hearing, etc," will also tend to get cephalized, though hearing/vibratory organs could potentially be anywhere.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ physiology   Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:24 pm

I agree that we'll need a few base settings that can be edited in critters' organs to show developement, but not too many. Also: Locational Damage.

So, I'd say the biggies here are:

1. Digestion, easily solved with the current OE by adding things like locational musculature and acids.

2. Brain, hardest one here, as has been said. Question: Does anyone know if having multiple nerve centers for specific purposes scattered around the body is possible?

3. Cardio, This might be tricky, as a whole slew of factors like base material of blood, number/size of lung(s), Kind of lungs(Book, Sack, etc.), kind of heart, heart size/number, Number of valves in heart, etc. come into play.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ physiology   Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:05 pm

Rex, for number three, I want to say yes. I'm pretty sure there are some invertibrates which have separate nervous clusters, but those do not equal brain.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ physiology   Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:38 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
I agree that we'll need a few base settings that can be edited in critters' organs to show developement, but not too many. Also: Locational Damage.

So, I'd say the biggies here are:

1. Digestion, easily solved with the current OE by adding things like locational musculature and acids.

2. Brain, hardest one here, as has been said. Question: Does anyone know if having multiple nerve centers for specific purposes scattered around the body is possible?

3. Cardio, This might be tricky, as a whole slew of factors like base material of blood, number/size of lung(s), Kind of lungs(Book, Sack, etc.), kind of heart, heart size/number, Number of valves in heart, etc. come into play.
We have organ systems in the OE, you know.

Yes, a creature could have spread out processors, and it has its pros and cons
Pros
-if one gets taken out , the whole creature doesn't die
-processors can take up less space
-processors can be nearer to what they are supposed to control

Cons
-slower reflexes because it takes time for signals to go in between them
-more complex nerve network
-if the creature is cephalized, lots of the processors won't be near its sensory organs.

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PostSubject: Re: Organ physiology   Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:11 pm

I've heard male mantisess (spelling?) have a second brain, not used much until the moment the female bites off the head of the male. The male survives several hours without the head, that's pretty good for an insect.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ physiology   Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:02 pm

Mantises? I hadn't heard. I assumed that was the same thing as a chicken running about with it's head cut off.

Separate hearts has some terra example... which I can't remember atm but will come to me eventually.
Another con of seperate ganglions (brain bits) is that blood flow to many areas of the body needs to drastically be increased. (And there would be multiple blood-brain barriers, but that's getting technical.) The economy of location usually sticks all the brain together unless there's an overwhelming advantage to splitting it up.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ physiology   Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:39 pm

Well, the second brain is just backup, it isn't actually used until the head's bit off.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ physiology   Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:50 am

hence why they don't live much longer, I guess. However, I know there are separated ganglion masses in some other invertibrate which are all used together... If only I could remember what creature it was...
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PostSubject: Re: Organ physiology   Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:44 pm

Commander Keen wrote:
Well, the second brain is just backup, it isn't actually used until the head's bit off.

I watched a video about this... During mating, the female bites the males head off, but the body keep mating, and then dies. It was a school video, I don't watch strange creatures mating for a hobby! Educational, though, there was a video about strange mating, and one of strange natural defences. And at the end it said humans are strange because we don't have any physical natural defences. That's right, YOU are strange! Haw haw! On the subject of schools, mine is starting again tomorrow.

I'm glad that the head doesn't get bitten off in the mating of every species... I like my head, and I doubt it's tasty... Maybe Mantises are zombies, eating the males brains?

Also, back on topic, well, more on topic, anyway, how come brains are usually on the front/top of a creature? Brains seem to be in the head, which is raised off the ground, or in the front if the head isn't raised. Anyone know why this is?
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PostSubject: Re: Organ physiology   Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:30 pm

The Uteen wrote:
Also, back on topic, well, more on topic, anyway, how come brains are usually on the front/top of a creature? Brains seem to be in the head, which is raised off the ground, or in the front if the head isn't raised. Anyone know why this is?
You want the brain close to all it's major sensors, and you want to have the sensors in unobstructed areas to gain the most/best information possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ physiology   Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:16 pm

1) Economy of location - group all sensors/ganglions close together (with the exception of touch, but that's pretty much necessarily all over the body.)
2) Economy of supply - running a brain requires a lot of blood. So it makes sense to have greater blood flow to just one region. And it's easier to protect it up there, too.
3) Cephalization - most senses tend to be concentrated in the direction that the creature is tending to go.
That's why a head.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ physiology   Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:06 am

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
1) Economy of location - group all sensors/ganglions close together (with the exception of touch, but that's pretty much necessarily all over the body.)
2) Economy of supply - running a brain requires a lot of blood. So it makes sense to have greater blood flow to just one region. And it's easier to protect it up there, too.
3) Cephalization - most senses tend to be concentrated in the direction that the creature is tending to go.
That's why a head.

I feel stupid not noticing the senses thing.

So a herbivore could have sight on its head, and ears on its back to hear predators... That would be a reason for multiple brains. A bad one, but a reason.

Also, organisms could have extremely powerful touch in one area, maybe 2x or more the amount of nerves we have on our fingers, and enclosed in a feeler or skin sack of some sort. A touch-based body part. Could be used in an environment with very tiny organisms or something, that need very sensitive touch to feel.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ physiology   Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:33 pm

ADMIN wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
Djohaal wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
And remember heat - the brain gets hot, it must be able to get all the excess heat out, that's part why many creatures have heads - Well, also to make most of the senses in one place, higher up, and closer to the brain for faster transferral of information to the brain.

Implementing physiological heat management would be a wee bit too much I think...

I still think we need some sort of tendency to evolve heads...
It's called cephalization- sensory organs and processors get collected towards the front of the creature so that it can better sense what it's going to. I'm not sure how we would encourage it, though, what with an indeterminate auto-evo system.
"Indeterminate autoevo"? NO! Have you seen THRIVE wiki? It says that would be disastrous!
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