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 My Evolution System Concept

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US_of_Alaska
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PostSubject: Re: My Evolution System Concept   Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:19 pm

First off, Bashi never said that we can't create an Auto-Evo. He said that we cannot make the game create an organism from scratch using Auto-Evo. The last two pages of the "Auto-Evo is dead" thread is pretty much dedicated to discussion on this. We can change organisms that already exist. Therefore, by providing template organisms for each biome or climate niche, we can use an automatic evolution algorithm to make the game really dynamic.

I think you've done alright to come up with a system for non-player controlled organisms, but it all feels too gamey for me. I'll never be happy with any points system. End of story. You say we need to avoid realism here, but this is the one place we need to strive for it most. This is what makes this game great, the idea that there will be a realistic game about evolution. Selecting mutations, i can live with. It's somewhat scientific. Mutation Points are not.
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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Re: My Evolution System Concept   Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:33 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:
First off, Bashi never said that we can't create an Auto-Evo. He said that we cannot make the game create an organism from scratch using Auto-Evo. The last two pages of the "Auto-Evo is dead" thread is pretty much dedicated to discussion on this. We can change organisms that already exist. Therefore, by providing template organisms for each biome or climate niche, we can use an automatic evolution algorithm to make the game really dynamic.

I think you've done alright to come up with a system for non-player controlled organisms, but it all feels too gamey for me. I'll never be happy with any points system. End of story. You say we need to avoid realism here, but this is the one place we need to strive for it most. This is what makes this game great, the idea that there will be a realistic game about evolution. Selecting mutations, i can live with. It's somewhat scientific. Mutation Points are not.
I've talked to him about it, and we've devised a better system for playr evolution based off of this.

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Smothmoth
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PostSubject: Re: My Evolution System Concept   Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:39 pm

Yes, and we also talked about NPC Evolution, which has floored all development. My opinion on the matter is to put it on the back-burner for now, focus on making the game playable.

Once we have a playable game, we are going to attract attention. This will draw in fresh talent and ideas, with this we can hopefully devise an NPC Evolution system that satisfies everyone.

And I'll go ahead an revise my earlier posts based on what we devised.
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Commander Keen
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PostSubject: Re: My Evolution System Concept   Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:54 pm

Smothmoth wrote:
My opinion on the matter is to put it on the back-burner for now, focus on making the game playable.

Fully agree, however, Bashi once said he will need to base the engine architecture on the AutoEvo if there is to be any. If this has changed, that's great!
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Smothmoth
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PostSubject: Re: My Evolution System Concept   Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:01 pm

I'm pretty sure that it was clearly stated Auto-Evo, in the sense of realistically simulated evolution, simply isn't happening.

We need to move on and focus on making a playable game, or this project is going to fall apart over a lack of progress.
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Pezzalis
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PostSubject: Re: My Evolution System Concept   Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:26 pm

I think so far this concept sounds good, but I think it is missing quite a major part of what we have been planning. Cause and effect.

I think a major part of Thrive is seeing your species evolve because of what happened to you in game play. For example if you were killed by the crushing jaw of another organism then your next generation will have a tougher epidermis. If you were out-swum and consequently eaten then your next generation will be faster at swimming (Longer fins, more streamline etc).

We need to know what mutations are available for species and how they can be attained.

Now we have vaguely determined more or less how you will become a certain phylum IE assimilate lots of heat eaters in cell stage and you will be Thermosynthetic.

Somehow (TBD) your multicellular colony will become a base creature depending on the phylum/kingdom etc you are in (Which is not chosen by the player but is chosen by cause and effect)

No heres my concept for these base creatures, and how they effect evolution.

Spoiler:
 

If this pseudo-Darwinian come Lamarckian thing is what we are going for we will need to determine all possible mutations each phyla could possibly evolve to.

Ta
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Smothmoth
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PostSubject: Re: My Evolution System Concept   Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:40 pm

Pezzalis wrote:
I think so far this concept sounds good, but I think it is missing quite a major part of what we have been planning. Cause and effect.

I think a major part of Thrive is seeing your species evolve because of what happened to you in game play. For example if you were killed by the crushing jaw of another organism then your next generation will have a tougher epidermis. If you were out-swum and consequently eaten then your next generation will be faster at swimming (Longer fins, more streamline etc).

This is Lamarckian evolution, based on what I've read here it has also been denounced as to complex.

While it seems simpler than Darwinian evolution, it would require every action possible being mapped out and given an attribute that improves the species.

Also, it doesn't make any sense for members of the species that were killed to impact the next generation, how would they pass anything on?


Pezzalis wrote:

Now we have vaguely determined more or less how you will become a certain phylum IE assimilate lots of heat eaters in cell stage and you will be Thermosynthetic.

Somehow (TBD) your multicellular colony will become a base creature depending on the phylum/kingdom etc you are in (Which is not chosen by the player but is chosen by cause and effect)

I haven't seen anything like this in my time lurking here, and all of the current concepts for evolution were basically just thrown out the window recently.

On Phyla, during my talk with ~sciocont he told me phyla weren't coming into play, as they are seen as limiting.
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US_of_Alaska
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PostSubject: Re: My Evolution System Concept   Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:21 pm

Smothmoth wrote:
This is Lamarckian evolution, based on what I've read here it has also been denounced as to complex.

While it seems simpler than Darwinian evolution, it would require every action possible being mapped out and given an attribute that improves the species.

Also, it doesn't make any sense for members of the species that were killed to impact the next generation, how would they pass anything on?

I haven't seen anything like this in my time lurking here, and all of the current concepts for evolution were basically just thrown out the window recently.

On Phyla, during my talk with ~sciocont he told me phyla weren't coming into play, as they are seen as limiting.
Alright, well the thing is that dead things don't pass their genes on, therefore everything that isn't them will. This means that the faster swimming ones will pass on their genes. Make sense? And while this is Darwinian Evolution and too difficult to program, we do need to represent it somehow.

And i'm also against implementing any sort of calssification system for anything.
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