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 city big enought

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bill2505
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PostSubject: city big enought    Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:38 am

will cities be big enought( cities are going to be like a rts minimized or realistically portrayed


will someone could create a Ecumenopolis or a very very big city


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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:52 am

Well they will probably be realistic to the size of the planet, which is a lot smaller than the actual surface area of the Earth.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:02 am

But still quite large, especially compared to the like of SPORE.
-Waap.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:20 am

if the graphics are good then the planets are going to be great(even smaller). what about my second question



-how small
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:53 pm

bill2505 wrote:
if the graphics are good then the planets are going to be great(even smaller). what about my second question

-how small

You could build a city any size as long as you control that territory.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:18 pm

Darkgamma wrote:
bill2505 wrote:
if the graphics are good then the planets are going to be great(even smaller). what about my second question

-how small

You could build a city any size as long as you control that territory.
How come you have to control that territory? Surely you could, but it would just annoy the neighbours, and probably start a war?

Having to control the territory isn't a great idea in my opinion. I could just go right now and build a city in another country. I'd probably be arrested, but I could.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:41 pm

The Uteen wrote:
Darkgamma wrote:
bill2505 wrote:
if the graphics are good then the planets are going to be great(even smaller). what about my second question

-how small

You could build a city any size as long as you control that territory.
How come you have to control that territory? Surely you could, but it would just annoy the neighbours, and probably start a war?

Having to control the territory isn't a great idea in my opinion. I could just go right now and build a city in another country. I'd probably be arrested, but I could.
exactly if you want more teritory you have to fight. i like the territory idea specially if you can build a city such big as your terittory
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:44 pm

In the end, if you go too fast, you'll end up like Germany in both world wars or Austria-Hungary in the first.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:37 pm

The Uteen wrote:
Darkgamma wrote:
bill2505 wrote:
if the graphics are good then the planets are going to be great(even smaller). what about my second question

-how small

You could build a city any size as long as you control that territory.
How come you have to control that territory? Surely you could, but it would just annoy the neighbours, and probably start a war?

Having to control the territory isn't a great idea in my opinion. I could just go right now and build a city in another country. I'd probably be arrested, but I could.
To build a city, you'd have to move resources into another nation's territory, which they may not take kindly to. I think you should be able to build a city anywhere, and building a city would be a good way to claim a territory as yours.

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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:56 pm

I was actually starting work on a concept for cities, might as well post some of my ideas here.

Has anyone played the game Rise of Nations/Legends? They are basically Civilization, but in real time instead of being turn based. Nations is based in real history, while Legends takes a fantasy twist on it.

I really like how these games handle cities, even if the scale isn't realistic. The city starts off as a city center, and you expand it by adding districts. I think we can make something like this work for Thrive, allowing a great deal of control over cities without turning the game into Sim City.

When you first build a city, it would start off as a city center, which would be anything from the chief's hut to a palace to a modern city hall. You can expand the city indefinitely by purchasing districts. Available districts could include; Residential, Mercantile, Industrial, and Military. Once you have the district placed, you can build a limited number of buildings in it, for Residential districts this could include housing, for Mercantile it could include market places and shopping centers, production centers and factories for industrial. Some buildings could only be built if certain terrain is present, like water wheels could only be build in districts containing a river while seaports/harbors could only be build in districts with ocean.

City size would only be limited by tax income/citizen unhappiness. Residential and Mercantile districts would generate money, but you need to build tax draining buildings to keep everyone happy. Like some form of law enforcement to keep the peace, emergency response teams, power stations, entertainment, and anything else to keep the population comfortable. You could build giant cities, but they would either be crime infested pits or dirt poor, maybe even both. Reasonable city size would grow over time as you unlock city related Researches, by improving tax efficiency or making mercantile/industrial districts more profitable.

The way Rise of Nations/Legends handles borders is also really nice. Every city/building you build projects an area of control around it, this area is your nation's border. You can only build in unclaimed land, or within your own territory. Everything projects a different sized area of control, with cities having the largest (It also expands as you expand the city). I think this system works really well, but there is one change I would make. In Rise of ____ Borders don't overlap, the land is either yours, unclaimed, or someone else's. I think borders should overlap, this then becomes disputed territory. You then have to work it out with the other nation, either diplomatically or through war.

There are my ideas so far, anyone have any questions or comments about them?
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:16 pm

Smothmoth wrote:
I was actually starting work on a concept for cities, might as well post some of my ideas here.

Has anyone played the game Rise of Nations/Legends? They are basically Civilization, but in real time instead of being turn based. Nations is based in real history, while Legends takes a fantasy twist on it.

I really like how these games handle cities, even if the scale isn't realistic. The city starts off as a city center, and you expand it by adding districts. I think we can make something like this work for Thrive, allowing a great deal of control over cities without turning the game into Sim City.

When you first build a city, it would start off as a city center, which would be anything from the chief's hut to a palace to a modern city hall. You can expand the city indefinitely by purchasing districts. Available districts could include; Residential, Mercantile, Industrial, and Military. Once you have the district placed, you can build a limited number of buildings in it, for Residential districts this could include housing, for Mercantile it could include market places and shopping centers, production centers and factories for industrial. Some buildings could only be built if certain terrain is present, like water wheels could only be build in districts containing a river while seaports/harbors could only be build in districts with ocean.

City size would only be limited by tax income/citizen unhappiness. Residential and Mercantile districts would generate money, but you need to build tax draining buildings to keep everyone happy. Like some form of law enforcement to keep the peace, emergency response teams, power stations, entertainment, and anything else to keep the population comfortable. You could build giant cities, but they would either be crime infested pits or dirt poor, maybe even both. Reasonable city size would grow over time as you unlock city related Researches, by improving tax efficiency or making mercantile/industrial districts more profitable.

The way Rise of Nations/Legends handles borders is also really nice. Every city/building you build projects an area of control around it, this area is your nation's border. You can only build in unclaimed land, or within your own territory. Everything projects a different sized area of control, with cities having the largest (It also expands as you expand the city). I think this system works really well, but there is one change I would make. In Rise of ____ Borders don't overlap, the land is either yours, unclaimed, or someone else's. I think borders should overlap, this then becomes disputed territory. You then have to work it out with the other nation, either diplomatically or through war.

There are my ideas so far, anyone have any questions or comments about them?

Two things to say: http://thrivegame.canadaboard.net/t377p15-assigning-borders#8958 and the fact that your sector placement creepily resembles that of Spore
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:29 pm

Darkgamma wrote:

Two things to say: http://thrivegame.canadaboard.net/t377p15-assigning-borders#8958 and the fact that your sector placement creepily resembles that of Spore

You shouldn't be afraid of a game mechanic just because is resembles something form Spore.

Anyway, they really aren't similar at all. The way cites worked in Spore was stupid, they never grew and the buildings you placed had little effect on anything, aesthetic or otherwise. A better comparison would be the improvements you build in cities in the Civilization series, only you can build them more than once and they have a larger visual impact.

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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:32 pm

Smothmoth wrote:
Darkgamma wrote:

Two things to say: http://thrivegame.canadaboard.net/t377p15-assigning-borders#8958 and the fact that your sector placement creepily resembles that of Spore

You shouldn't be afraid of a game mechanic just because is resembles something form Spore.

Anyway, they really aren't similar at all. The way cites worked in Spore was stupid, they never grew and the buildings you placed had little effect on anything, aesthetic or otherwise. A better comparison would be the improvements you build in cities in the Civilization series, only you can build them more than once and they have a larger visual impact.


Well, I'll say you're not too bad. Expecially since you played Rise of Nations =D
And yes, it seems you are right. Your concept tho lacks one thing: how would cities be fused? As in, when their metropolitan areas overlap, as in the case of the Taiheio belt. Other than that, I root for you. You should go for a team lead.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:47 pm

Darkgamma wrote:

Well, I'll say you're not too bad. Expecially since you played Rise of Nations =D

Its one of my favorites, it needs another sequel!

Darkgamma wrote:
And yes, it seems you are right. Your concept tho lacks one thing: how would cities be fused? As in, when their metropolitan areas overlap, as in the case of the Taiheio belt.


I don't really think anything special would need happen you just couldn't expand in that direction anymore, besides maybe giving the option to combine the two cities into one.

Darkgamma wrote:
Other than that, I root for you. You should go for a team lead.

You really think I should go for a team lead? I don't know, my only real talent is game design. I'm also already pretty busy with other projects, and I'm starting College soon!

I guess I could if I have any free time, and there is an opening for "Team Lead of Game Design" or something.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:57 pm

Smothmoth wrote:
Darkgamma wrote:

Well, I'll say you're not too bad. Expecially since you played Rise of Nations =D

Its one of my favorites, it needs another sequel!

Darkgamma wrote:
And yes, it seems you are right. Your concept tho lacks one thing: how would cities be fused? As in, when their metropolitan areas overlap, as in the case of the Taiheio belt.


I don't really think anything special would need happen you just couldn't expand in that direction anymore, besides maybe giving the option to combine the two cities into one.

Darkgamma wrote:
Other than that, I root for you. You should go for a team lead.

You really think I should go for a team lead? I don't know, my only real talent is game design. I'm also already pretty busy with other projects, and I'm starting College soon!

I guess I could if I have any free time, and there is an opening for "Team Lead of Game Design" or something.

I'm going to go to med school in October 2013 =D You're not better than me, mostly. My only experience with code is Wikiformat coding and I love making techtrees and languages.
Seriously, if you like Rise of Nations and are so optimistic about cities, I'd vote for you if you ever went for a team lead position, tho try not to pick the Tech Editor one. Welcome to the community, from me, then.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:11 pm

Look up SCs on the wiki guys.

...Just sayin...

Also: No one actually sits down and says "ima bild a ctiy guyssss!!11" Cities evolve. Hence the big angry discussion on the formation of SCs. SCs form by a certain ratio and density of TOs and Orgs.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:37 pm

Darkgamma wrote:

I'm going to go to med school in October 2013 =D You're not better than me, mostly.

Oh, I wasn't trying to say I was better than anyone. Just that I don't really have much free time as it is, and soon I'm going to have even less.

Good Luck with Medical School though!

Darkgamma wrote:

Seriously, if you like Rise of Nations and are so optimistic about cities, I'd vote for you if you ever went for a team lead position, tho try not to pick the Tech Editor one.
I'm just really obsessive, and get way to focused on things.

I'll think about it though, doesn't look like anyone has taken the Space Stage team lead yet...

Tenebrarum wrote:

Look up SCs on the wiki guys.

...Just sayin...

Also: No one actually sits down and says "ima bild a ctiy guyssss!!11" Cities evolve. Hence the big angry discussion on the formation of SCs. SCs form by a certain ratio and density of TOs and Orgs.

I have, which is why it was next on my list for a new concept. The current SC concept needs some work still, I'll work on the that a little more and post it some other time.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:58 pm

Well, I don't like the "buy districts thing", but otherwise it's pretty acceptable.

Buying districts them does not seem that good. They aren't even needed for effective city management, but most probably they will appear for largers SCs. However, instead of buying them, you should simply set a priorities for the SC (like resource gathering, housing, military production), and the SC's governor will automatically construct buildings (and possibly districts) if the SC needs them.

The player himself can also take control over the city and plan where buildings and districts will be founded.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:02 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
Cities evolve..
QFT

RON/L were good RTS games, but I don't think we should use that system. Especially districts, building loads of identical buildings of the same type is just not realistic at all. Not Thrive.

Building a 'city', and then adding special buildings isn't the way to do it. The cities should be composed of a variety of different building types, with traffic, variation, and citizens which are not just mindless zombies wandering around, but are actual organisms, just like earlier stages.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:42 pm

Commander Keen wrote:
Well, I don't like the "buy districts thing", but otherwise it's pretty acceptable.

Buying districts them does not seem that good. They aren't even needed for effective city management, but most probably they will appear for largers SCs. However, instead of buying them, you should simply set a priorities for the SC (like resource gathering, housing, military production), and the SC's governor will automatically construct buildings (and possibly districts) if the SC needs them.

The player himself can also take control over the city and plan where buildings and districts will be founded.

Think of it like zoning in Sim City, but you have control over what is built in the zone. It also allows for living conditions to vary from district to district, like in a real city.

I do agree that we need to be able to automate city management, imagine the Micro-Management Hell an Interstellar Empire would be if you couldn't.

The Uteen wrote:

QFT

RON/L were good RTS games, but I don't think we should use that system. Especially districts, building loads of identical buildings of the same type is just not realistic at all. Not Thrive.

Building a 'city', and then adding special buildings isn't the way to do it. The cities should be composed of a variety of different building types, with traffic, variation, and citizens which are not just mindless zombies wandering around, but are actual organisms, just like earlier stages.

I used "Rise of" as an example because its the only Civilization type game I know of that is in real time, and while the scale is all wrong for Thrive I think we can use ideas from it. Who said anything about building loads of identical buildings, and what does that have to do with my district idea?

As for "building" cities, this does happen in the real world. Look at what the European powers did during the 17th-19th centuries, they sent settlers to new lands with the intent of creating colonies. Also, what about space colonization? How will this happen if the player can't buy cities, unless its all automated or something. I wouldn't like that, as I mentioned in my Evolution Concept thread, this is a game, the player has to have some control.

The first cities should evolve out of successful tribes, but afterwards I think we should be able to build some sort of settler unit. You send it off to where you want and form a settlement, if it works out this settlement will evolve into a city. As for realistically simulating the lives citizens, I don't think a single person could say they don't want this, but lets be realistic. Programming all of that will take a lot of time, if it even works out to be possible. That time and effort would be better spent in other areas.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:47 pm

Smothmoth wrote:
Commander Keen wrote:
Well, I don't like the "buy districts thing", but otherwise it's pretty acceptable.

Buying districts them does not seem that good. They aren't even needed for effective city management, but most probably they will appear for largers SCs. However, instead of buying them, you should simply set a priorities for the SC (like resource gathering, housing, military production), and the SC's governor will automatically construct buildings (and possibly districts) if the SC needs them.

The player himself can also take control over the city and plan where buildings and districts will be founded.

Think of it like zoning in Sim City, but you have control over what is built in the zone. It also allows for living conditions to vary from district to district, like in a real city.

I do agree that we need to be able to automate city management, imagine the Micro-Management Hell an Interstellar Empire would be if you couldn't.

The Uteen wrote:

QFT

RON/L were good RTS games, but I don't think we should use that system. Especially districts, building loads of identical buildings of the same type is just not realistic at all. Not Thrive.

Building a 'city', and then adding special buildings isn't the way to do it. The cities should be composed of a variety of different building types, with traffic, variation, and citizens which are not just mindless zombies wandering around, but are actual organisms, just like earlier stages.

I used "Rise of" as an example because its the only Civilization type game I know of that is in real time, and while the scale is all wrong for Thrive I think we can use ideas from it. Who said anything about building loads of identical buildings, and what does that have to do with my district idea?

As for "building" cities, this does happen in the real world. Look at what the European powers did during the 17th-19th centuries, they sent settlers to new lands with the intent of creating colonies. Also, what about space colonization? How will this happen if the player can't buy cities, unless its all automated or something. I wouldn't like that, as I mentioned in my Evolution Concept thread, this is a game, the player has to have some control.

The first cities should evolve out of successful tribes, but afterwards I think we should be able to build some sort of settler unit. You send it off to where you want and form a settlement, if it works out this settlement will evolve into a city. As for realistically simulating the lives citizens, I don't think a single person could say they don't want this, but lets be realistic. Programming all of that will take a lot of time, if it even works out to be possible. That time and effort would be better spent in other areas.

ROL used districts... Don't you mean like that?

And in organism mode, you will have to simulate organisms.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:59 pm

The Uteen wrote:

ROL used districts... Don't you mean like that?

Oh, I should have explained this better. I didn't mean taking the district idea from "Rise of" directly, just that I thought it was a good way to represent expanding the city in a planned way. When "buying" a district, you are incorporating that land into the city and zoning the it for use in some way. After the the district is set up, you can build a number of buildings inside said district. The districts themselves aren't buildings, like in "Rise of", just a way to plan out the city.

The Uteen wrote:
And in organism mode, you will have to simulate organisms.

Yes, but everyone's life was much simpler before sentience. Even really detailed RPGs don't realistically portray the lives of NPCs, it would take way to much work.
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:39 pm

Smothmoth wrote:
Oh, I should have explained this better. I didn't mean taking the district idea from "Rise of" directly, just that I thought it was a good way to represent expanding the city in a planned way. When "buying" a district, you are incorporating that land into the city and zoning the it for use in some way. After the the district is set up, you can build a number of buildings inside said district. The districts themselves aren't buildings, like in "Rise of", just a way to plan out the city.

The wording you are using here is quite confusing. It seems that what you want is exactly the same as I want, but using the wording "buying districts" makes it look that you want to automatically assign the land to the city once the "buy district X" button is pressed.

Also, don't forget players will need to be able to place buildings independent of districts, such as some special buildings or city walls.

Quote :
I think we should be able to build some sort of settler unit. You send it off to where you want and form a settlement, if it works out this settlement will evolve into a city.

This is already handled by the work of Alaska. You can deploy people from the SC and command them like military units (though those settlers will probably be a huge squad of it's own).
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PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:41 pm

YOu could make a city that covers the whole planet
One GIANT MEGA-SUPER-CIty
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Location : Czech Republic (not that anyone would know where it is...)

PostSubject: Re: city big enought    Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:51 pm

You could, but there would be HUUUGE problems with supplying and commuting to work (inter-system buses anyone?)
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