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 Ecosystem Concepts

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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Ecosystem Concepts   Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:09 pm

I've noticed that we're thinking kind of terra-centrically, and I'd like for us not to do that. Therefore, I challenge you all: invent an ecosystem/biome that does not exist on earth. It needs to be realistic, of course, but it needs to push boundaries, and do things that haven't been thought of before. Take into consideration all of the things that can happen on a planet, and how life would cope with those things.

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toxiciron
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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:40 pm

How about a sphere shaped cavern inches underground with plants that grow out of the ceilings and hang down in order to support themselves? Like the roots grow upwards? Or a plant that shakes whenever it needs to do... something... or some type of parasite that uses that shaking in order to make energy! Like those shakable flashlights...............


..........Sometimes I wonder if I'm secretly fed drugs.
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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:53 pm

Maybe an underground environment existing in a cave with a crystal ceiling? Like could come in though the crystals allowing plants to live there, and with plants, come animals (at least more than their would be otherwise). Parts of the ceiling could have water sitting above it and draining down to make water falls, and allowing a fresh supply of water to constantly be provided. ...Plus it would look cool.

Or maybe an ecosystem similar to a forest, only growing in an area with a ridiculous amount of fissures, small drop offs, cliffs, etc. etc., and all of the animals being controlled by a parasitic species that needs them to reproduce! Like mind-controlling Xenomorphs. That would be freaky. o.o

Anyway, yeah, my ideas.
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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:58 pm

This is good. We need to have built in biomes until we have the ability to create them procedurally.

My idea is a completely covered treetop forest area where the surface has zero photosynthesizing plants. The treetop area completely shadows everything below it, leaving only animals and tiny non photosynthesizing plants down there. The giant trees reproduce like aspens; they grow new trees from their roots.

It would require:

Non photosynthesizing plants
Trees over 50m tall w/crazy leaves bearing fruit (They may be pre-built just for this biome)

Niches may include:

Flying herbivore - They'd eat leaves on top and live in the trees.
-Must have ability to fly or climb
-Must be able to digest leaves
-Dependant on trees population

Small digging creature - Runs around underground
-Must be carnivore with claws
-Dependant on primary food source's population

Rogue climbing carnivore - Climbs trees and hunts animals
-Must be have the ability to climb.
-Must be able to digest meat
-Must be able to kill said animals
-Dependant on primary food source's population

Rogue herbivore - Feeds on small plants existing under the trees.
-Must be able to digest those plants
-Dependant on plant's population


Last edited by roadkillguy on Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:19 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:45 am

Subterranean: Plants that use the light produced by a certain creature to grow. Creature eats the plants to produce the light. Insects attracted to light - eaten by carnivorous plants. ?
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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:41 am

PCaddict wrote:
Maybe an underground environment existing in a cave with a crystal ceiling? Like could come in though the crystals allowing plants to live there, and with plants, come animals (at least more than their would be otherwise). Parts of the ceiling could have water sitting above it and draining down to make water falls, and allowing a fresh supply of water to constantly be provided. ...Plus it would look cool.
That's what I'm talking about. That's an absolutely beautiful environment, and it's quite plausible.

Quote :
Subterranean: Plants that use the light produced by a certain creature to grow. Creature eats the plants to produce the light. Insects attracted to light - eaten by carnivorous plants.
Again, a great idea. You've invented a synthetic light cycle. That's brilliant.

Roadkill- that's a great start, but a few things to consider, since you're already deep into the workings of this.
-how do the plants reproduce? Obviously through the fruit, but young saplings would die in the dark environment unless they had some other energy source. I'd suggest a different approach to the problem. I'd suggest something more like a Banyan Tree. I've seen a gigantic one in Hawai'i that growas over an entuire city block, just one tree. With that sort of nergy, you could easily expand the forest higher and wider without worrying about thre low-light at the surface.

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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:18 pm

Screw the fruit, the trees could be like aspens.

I was really trying to give an example of how all the niches work.
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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:16 pm

roadkillguy wrote:
Screw the fruit, the trees could be like aspens.

I was really trying to give an example of how all the niches work.
You provided a good example.

Here's my ecosystem cponcept- Tidal forest.
Tidal forest exist on panets with extreme tides, usually over 50 feet high. The forests exist on the blurry areas of the ocean and land, a sort of coast, but they're more like gigantic beaches that stretch on for hundreds of miles inland at some points. Water level goes from 0 to 50+ feet in a matter of minutes, so most inhabitants are amphibious. Tidal forests are like gigantic, extremely complex coral reefs. Corals and plants grow dozens of feet high, and just keep building up on each other. At the bottom, where the "ground" would be, there are sometimes permanent saltwater ponds or lakes deposited by hhe tides in lower-lying areas. A certain species of coral grows very high spires whose upper sections are always dry. Many large flying animals can nest in these and use them as bases to escape te tides. The smaller animals inside the coral forest and living on its upper surfaces must face the tide every day so most of them have strong gripping appendages to hold on to things when the tide comes in.

Niches:

Huge coral

Smaller corals

Smaller plants

Amphibious top Predator

Airborn predator (dependant on huge corals)

Amphibious herbivores, lower predators.

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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:43 pm

How about an underwater swamp?

On the ocean floor, small areas of a liquid denser than water (or whatever the planet's oceans are made of) form swampy areas when they appear in groups. Tree-like coral and seaweed grow with two sets of roots: One on top and one on bottom. These plants need the planet's atmosphere and the liquid at the bottom of the oceans to grow. They are gigantic, and can be up to 95 feet tall. Their upper roots are like branches, but they absorb light and the air instead of just light. Their lower roots absorb the liquid at the bottom of the ocean. The ocean itself is poisonous if it gets inside the tree. Therefore, the roots are closed up until they reach the air or plant themselves into the fluid at the bottom of the ocean. When the roots reach the top of the ocean, they open up into gigantic leaves, and catch sunlight. From land it looks like a forest filled with short trees sticking out of the water.
Other plants live off these trees. Lilly-pad like moss connects to the roots on top of the water, and float. The moss covers a lot of the top of the ocean, but there are large and common holes that let light through. They are thick enough to stand on, but they are easy to break too. Amphibious animals live on the trees leaves and the moss. They feed on the plants, but also make them tougher by stepping on them and forcing the trees' leaves and moss to thicken themselves. Bacteria cover the bottom of the moss, and small crab-like creatures feast off of those. Meanwhile, predators that act and look like Manta Rays eat the crabs. Seaweed and coral grow on the trees' trunks like fungi, and fish live near or in these coral. They eat the seaweed, which taps the tree for food to survive.
Altogether the tree forms a large habitat, and they appear in groups. So that's a HUMONGOUS ecosystem there.

There would need to be:

-A planet with at least two liquids in its ocean (One being denser and a lot less common than the other)

-Ginormous trees

-Small floating Bryophyta plants (Look it up ;))

-Small coral plants

-Seaweed plants

-Small carnivores (The bacteria doesn't need to be registered in the game, these guys just need to look like they're eating some.)

-Large carnivores (Rays)

-Medium herbivores (Fish)

I know it's a lot to read, but I think it's worth it.
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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:37 am

i know i will have an arsenic planet (just to make more fun out of the standard thinking)


with all the rare earth ores being more abundant then what ever we have here
the planet at least 10 times bigger then the earth

a lot of dark colour's

the water is composed out of Hydrofluoric acid

trees tend to be droopy and dead like (in human terms)
plants are neon green or colour's similar to it
and the soil is a mixture of sulphur dioxide and Dinitrogen pentoxide

atleast 45% of the planet is mountain and 35% is liquid

the mountain ground has a lot of grand ledges and flat surfaces but the planet is a harsh one to survive even within groups you might end as diner for your own group

the predators are semi giant lizards that range from visible deathly to i need to know it is lethal before i believe it masters of climbing near vertical cliff sides and the ferocious one's are known to even try to climb a over hanging cliff side (not always leading to the demise of the climber)
the herbivores are very diverse some are larger then the predators and some are small enough to get plant's growing in small cracks in the rocks
at sea the predators are not less lethal but they are less diverse and not large in number but what those don't kill could die on a random steam release of the vulcanic activity
the sea herbivores are wildly diverse the largest slightly larger then a whale that just vacuum cleans the sea's for plants and not taking notice of a meat snack

and i have no clear view how the air is going to be looking like nor how the ground looks like but i have a contact that might draw the plantlife and a huge cavern system
i will stop now else i will write down three pages of info i just want something where i can dumb a human and know 100% certainly that he is dead
*edit* please ask me questions about missing info then i can make a little direction of my inspiration
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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:15 pm

@dudeman- what you're basially describing is a shallow water brine lake environment. I really like the idea, si head over to the biome list and submit

@Raven Destroyer- (can I call you raven?) Actual chemical composition won't be covered in the game, it's too complex. also, HCl isn't really anything like water in properties, and kills everything it touches.

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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:23 am

~sciocont wrote:
@Raven Destroyer- (can I call you raven?) Actual chemical composition won't be covered in the game, it's too complex. also, HCl isn't really anything like water in properties, and kills everything it touches.

raven is good
it kills us but if a organism evolves to coop with it then it is no problem for it and from that organism comes more live
but the chemicals are also a way to describe it and i'm no chemist but i have contacts that can help me on that part
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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:54 am

Raven Destroyer wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
@Raven Destroyer- (can I call you raven?) Actual chemical composition won't be covered in the game, it's too complex. also, HCl isn't really anything like water in properties, and kills everything it touches.

raven is good
it kills us but if a organism evolves to coop with it then it is no problem for it and from that organism comes more live
but the chemicals are also a way to describe it and i'm no chemist but i have contacts that can help me on that part

Any kind of concentrated acid (and/or low pH) is probably not a good permanent environment for complex organisms.

(In brief, acids are proton donors, acidic conditions = lower pH which speeds up some reactions and can ruin the metabolism of a fundamental cell. Some organisms can cope with it with special proton pumps however because of the energy required to do so it is unlikely that such organisms could become substantially complex and remain fit and efficient)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acidophile_(organisms)
(Note how they are all unicellular)

HF for example (You guys are talking about HCl now but originally the acid was Hydrofluoric) is a highly corrosive acid and is a contact poison to most (if not all) animals on earth. Now I know that the purpose of this thread is to be out-worldly but such a corrosive acid would be unlikely to sustain any kind of complex life.
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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:31 pm

Pezzalis wrote:
Raven Destroyer wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
@Raven Destroyer- (can I call you raven?) Actual chemical composition won't be covered in the game, it's too complex. also, HCl isn't really anything like water in properties, and kills everything it touches.

raven is good
it kills us but if a organism evolves to coop with it then it is no problem for it and from that organism comes more live
but the chemicals are also a way to describe it and i'm no chemist but i have contacts that can help me on that part

Any kind of concentrated acid (and/or low pH) is probably not a good permanent environment for complex organisms.

(In brief, acids are proton donors, acidic conditions = lower pH which speeds up some reactions and can ruin the metabolism of a fundamental cell. Some organisms can cope with it with special proton pumps however because of the energy required to do so it is unlikely that such organisms could become substantially complex and remain fit and efficient)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acidophile_(organisms)
(Note how they are all unicellular)

HF for example (You guys are talking about HCl now but originally the acid was Hydrofluoric) is a highly corrosive acid and is a contact poison to most (if not all) animals on earth. Now I know that the purpose of this thread is to be out-worldly but such a corrosive acid would be unlikely to sustain any kind of complex life.

ok you got me for now but i'm so gonna remember this if we find some organism that you describe as not possible or near impossible that is just doing great

so on that back to the drawing board does people know some poisonous things for us humans that might work as water? still my atmosphere is good as nasa will also agree only some things do not fit
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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:58 pm

Okay, so the main reasons why we need water are it's chemical properties.
a) it is polar.
b) it is rare in that it's solid form is less dense than the liquid, which is because of it's polar orientation.
c) this polarity also creates surface tension, which allows the liquid to bead, form rain drops and everything else.
d) many things are soluble in it.
e) it is neutral in ph.

Most of these are very important for the development of a cell, so if you find a chemical that mimics a large amount of these physical and chemical properties, please let us know immediately. It would be awesome.
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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:27 pm

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
Okay, so the main reasons why we need water are it's chemical properties.
a) it is polar.
b) it is rare in that it's solid form is less dense than the liquid, which is because of it's polar orientation.
c) this polarity also creates surface tension, which allows the liquid to bead, form rain drops and everything else.
d) many things are soluble in it.
e) it is neutral in ph.

Most of these are very important for the development of a cell, so if you find a chemical that mimics a large amount of these physical and chemical properties, please let us know immediately. It would be awesome.
If you discover a water substitute, notify the universe and divide by zero. Unil then, all planets we work with are going to need it, basically.

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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:04 am

~sciocont wrote:
Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
Okay, so the main reasons why we need water are it's chemical properties.
a) it is polar.
b) it is rare in that it's solid form is less dense than the liquid, which is because of it's polar orientation.
c) this polarity also creates surface tension, which allows the liquid to bead, form rain drops and everything else.
d) many things are soluble in it.
e) it is neutral in ph.

Most of these are very important for the development of a cell, so if you find a chemical that mimics a large amount of these physical and chemical properties, please let us know immediately. It would be awesome.
If you discover a water substitute, notify the universe and divide by zero. Unil then, all planets we work with are going to need it, basically.

and here we go again with the standard text book on life creation that nasa used and is currently losing balance ty to that little "impossible" life form we found but i know something that replaces that acid of mine liquid methane that has formed a combination with an element that makes it liquid till 45 degrees celcius
and if people can't find that element then i call it Ravarium
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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:57 am

@ Raven: Stay tuned for your chem and bio homework. What's best is I don't give tests. *evil grin*
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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:03 am

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
@ Raven: Stay tuned for your chem and bio homework. What's best is I don't give tests. *evil grin*

there is no way you can be more evil then me if i unleash myself things will not end well with the people my way
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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:11 am

Raven Destroyer wrote:

and here we go again with the standard text book on life creation that nasa used and is currently losing balance ty to that little "impossible" life form we found but i know something that replaces that acid of mine liquid methane that has formed a combination with an element that makes it liquid till 45 degrees celcius
and if people can't find that element then i call it Ravarium

Impossible life form? Which one was that? Link me

And I don't think we will be wanting to make up any elements or water substitutes here for now I think we need to find credible real ones, if there are any. There have been suggestions that life could inhabit liquid methane on Titan but with such a low surface temperature its unlikely anything complex could exist.

I'm sure, although we may have to use water as the main anchor, we can come up with many unique ecosystems for the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:23 pm

Raven Destroyer wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
Okay, so the main reasons why we need water are it's chemical properties.
a) it is polar.
b) it is rare in that it's solid form is less dense than the liquid, which is because of it's polar orientation.
c) this polarity also creates surface tension, which allows the liquid to bead, form rain drops and everything else.
d) many things are soluble in it.
e) it is neutral in ph.

Most of these are very important for the development of a cell, so if you find a chemical that mimics a large amount of these physical and chemical properties, please let us know immediately. It would be awesome.
If you discover a water substitute, notify the universe and divide by zero. Unil then, all planets we work with are going to need it, basically.

and here we go again with the standard text book on life creation that nasa used and is currently losing balance ty to that little "impossible" life form we found but i know something that replaces that acid of mine liquid methane that has formed a combination with an element that makes it liquid till 45 degrees celcius
and if people can't find that element then i call it Ravarium
Calm down, Raven. We're not against you here. We'd like to have very exotic environments, new elements, but that would sacrifice our game's realism, which is our main goal.
Also, arsenic life doesn't mean it can just bathe in methane. Those bacteria were still found in water, and they wren't arsenic-based, they were simply arsenic-tolerant. They still naturally used Phosphorous, but had the ability to switch it out fro arsenic as well.

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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:10 pm

~sciocont wrote:
Raven Destroyer wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
Okay, so the main reasons why we need water are it's chemical properties.
a) it is polar.
b) it is rare in that it's solid form is less dense than the liquid, which is because of it's polar orientation.
c) this polarity also creates surface tension, which allows the liquid to bead, form rain drops and everything else.
d) many things are soluble in it.
e) it is neutral in ph.

Most of these are very important for the development of a cell, so if you find a chemical that mimics a large amount of these physical and chemical properties, please let us know immediately. It would be awesome.
If you discover a water substitute, notify the universe and divide by zero. Unil then, all planets we work with are going to need it, basically.

and here we go again with the standard text book on life creation that nasa used and is currently losing balance ty to that little "impossible" life form we found but i know something that replaces that acid of mine liquid methane that has formed a combination with an element that makes it liquid till 45 degrees celcius
and if people can't find that element then i call it Ravarium
Calm down, Raven. We're not against you here. We'd like to have very exotic environments, new elements, but that would sacrifice our game's realism, which is our main goal.
Also, arsenic life doesn't mean it can just bathe in methane. Those bacteria were still found in water, and they wren't arsenic-based, they were simply arsenic-tolerant. They still naturally used Phosphorous, but had the ability to switch it out fro arsenic as well.
Not to mention that they have fallen under scruteny by other scientists that just how tollerent of arsenic they were was quite exagerated. Until we are certain that other chemistries are found to work more than just theoretically, we will have to stay purely terra-centric. I am just as disappointed as the rest of you (except maybe Bashi) on this.
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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:31 pm

Poisson wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
Raven Destroyer wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
Spoiler:
 
If you discover a water substitute, notify the universe and divide by zero. Unil then, all planets we work with are going to need it, basically.

and here we go again with the standard text book on life creation that nasa used and is currently losing balance ty to that little "impossible" life form we found but i know something that replaces that acid of mine liquid methane that has formed a combination with an element that makes it liquid till 45 degrees celcius
and if people can't find that element then i call it Ravarium
Calm down, Raven. We're not against you here. We'd like to have very exotic environments, new elements, but that would sacrifice our game's realism, which is our main goal.
Also, arsenic life doesn't mean it can just bathe in methane. Those bacteria were still found in water, and they wren't arsenic-based, they were simply arsenic-tolerant. They still naturally used Phosphorous, but had the ability to switch it out fro arsenic as well.
Not to mention that they have fallen under scruteny by other scientists that just how tollerent of arsenic they were was quite exagerated. Until we are certain that other chemistries are found to work more than just theoretically, we will have to stay purely terra-centric. I am just as disappointed as the rest of you (except maybe Bashi) on this.
A:) i never intended to bash any one or make one smaller or anything around those lines

B:) not all planets we are going to work with should contain water as venus, mars and what ever not more doesn't have that (or not in working order)

C:) grant my mind some room to think and if you can find one thing that kinda works means more is always possible

D:) why i can't clean my quoting a little?
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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:37 pm

Venus, however, to the best of our knowledge, has no life. This game is about life, and therefore, if you would like to live, you play on a planet with quite a bit of water. We're trying to work with what's likely to be possible here. Just try to remember that, and the communication problems will most likely resolve themselves.

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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:05 pm

I, for example, would love for this game to be able to do the same things as the sci-fi I write... however, that would likely break Bashi's brain.

Also, I have some very basic chemistry overviews should anyone need to brush up - I haven't checked all the lessons on all the sites but I got through acid-base and it looks okay. Can't vouch for every single link there, so you might want to cross check a couple of them. Also, cross-check with our friend, Wikipedia, because you should be able to follow links around there and essentially give yourself a lesson a page.

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PostSubject: Re: Ecosystem Concepts   Today at 2:29 pm

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