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Thrive Game Development

Development of the evolution game Thrive.
 
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 Decision Time

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+7
caekdaemon
Redstar
bill2505
specialk2121
Tenebrarum
Mysterious_Calligrapher
US_of_Alaska
11 posters
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Tree or Branch?
Tree
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 43% [ 6 ]
Branch
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 57% [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 14
 

AuthorMessage
Tenebrarum
Society Team Lead
Tenebrarum


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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyMon Jan 31, 2011 9:16 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:
Tenebrarum wrote:
US_of_Alaska wrote:
http://www.mediafire.com/?sbezu0wiht09ib6

Have a look and see what you think, Rex.
It just needs refining. No way to just say all the issues.

Also Smoth says that the branches system allows for cross branch requirement, and that it mainly serves as organizational. Sound like a plan?
I don't quite understand. How is it only organisational?
Seperates out researches into three main catagories.
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specialk2121
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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyMon Jan 31, 2011 10:05 pm

woo hoo !00% percent for branch
MY VOTE!

I would call it a Tech Web instead of Branch
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bill2505
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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 01, 2011 12:30 am

unless i have a visuall idea of both i cant deside
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Redstar
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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 01, 2011 12:48 pm

Is there a thread somewhere that lays out the "Branch" idea? I don't think I've ever encountered it in a game before, so I'm having a difficult time imagining how it works - and how it's different than the tree.

EDIT:
Also, I just want to say that I think the Inventions idea is bangin', and opens up a bunch of interesting gameplay ideas upon which I will comment later, after this is decided.
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Mysterious_Calligrapher
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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 01, 2011 2:22 pm

Okay. My two cents, spoilered for your convenience.
Spoiler:
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caekdaemon
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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 01, 2011 3:23 pm

For the branch idea, think of Sword Of The Stars tech tree. It works very similar to the invention system.
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US_of_Alaska
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US_of_Alaska


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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 02, 2011 12:11 am

Spoiler:


Last edited by US_of_Alaska on Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tenebrarum
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Tenebrarum


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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 02, 2011 4:15 pm

We're getting OT here people. Let's keep this thread about the basic idea of Tree vs. Branch vs. Alternative.

Personally, I think that neither way really does anything. Our issues are present and impossible to fix by one massive change. We just need to over-polish this. That's all.
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US_of_Alaska
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US_of_Alaska


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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 02, 2011 5:08 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
We're getting OT here people. Let's keep this thread about the basic idea of Tree vs. Branch vs. Alternative.

Personally, I think that neither way really does anything. Our issues are present and impossible to fix by one massive change. We just need to over-polish this. That's all.
What do you mean by polish it?
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Tenebrarum
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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 02, 2011 5:45 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:
Tenebrarum wrote:
We're getting OT here people. Let's keep this thread about the basic idea of Tree vs. Branch vs. Alternative.

Personally, I think that neither way really does anything. Our issues are present and impossible to fix by one massive change. We just need to over-polish this. That's all.
What do you mean by polish it?
I mean that instead of rearanging anything, just work on what we have. There are no major flaws in either system, so the only flaws present will be the fault of us, those who create the researches.
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US_of_Alaska
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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 02, 2011 6:39 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
US_of_Alaska wrote:
What do you mean by polish it?
I mean that instead of rearanging anything, just work on what we have. There are no major flaws in either system, so the only flaws present will be the fault of us, those who create the researches.
Okay. So back to working on the research list thread, right?
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Tenebrarum
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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 02, 2011 7:22 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:
Tenebrarum wrote:
US_of_Alaska wrote:
What do you mean by polish it?
I mean that instead of rearanging anything, just work on what we have. There are no major flaws in either system, so the only flaws present will be the fault of us, those who create the researches.
Okay. So back to working on the research list thread, right?
Yup. Impliment inventions though. Belgium fine idea.
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US_of_Alaska
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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyWed Feb 02, 2011 11:28 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
US_of_Alaska wrote:
Tenebrarum wrote:
US_of_Alaska wrote:
What do you mean by polish it?
I mean that instead of rearanging anything, just work on what we have. There are no major flaws in either system, so the only flaws present will be the fault of us, those who create the researches.
Okay. So back to working on the research list thread, right?
Yup. Impliment inventions though. Belgium fine idea.
Will do my best to do so.
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The Uteen
Sandbox Team Lead
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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyThu Feb 03, 2011 1:11 pm

I think we should have a combination of both, they both have their advantages. But there isn't an option for that...

I vote for a tree with branches.
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Commander Keen
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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyThu Feb 03, 2011 3:19 pm

I don't have any idea of how that would look, and part the variability tech webs have would be wasted. Show how do you mean the Tech tree with branches.
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Smothmoth
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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyThu Feb 03, 2011 8:26 pm

Redstar wrote:
Is there a thread somewhere that lays out the "Branch" idea? I don't think I've ever encountered it in a game before, so I'm having a difficult time imagining how it works - and how it's different than the tree.

Here You Go

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Tree
Pros - All connected, easy to follow, triggers
Cons - Sometimes too many prerequisites can clutter and slow progress

Branch
Pros - Allows more variation through inventions
Cons - Not as many researches, some researches don't have inventions, this will make them seem less important

Let me add a Con to Tree, No Diversity.
Also, all Researches would have inventions. The Branches in the tree are the researches, and the minor things related to that branch are put in as inventions.

As I mentioned in my thread, I could work out a larger example for how the Research Web could look. Would anyone like me to do this?

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Waap
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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyFri Feb 04, 2011 12:54 am

That would probably be a good idea.
-Waap.
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US_of_Alaska
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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyFri Feb 04, 2011 1:10 am

Smothmoth wrote:
Redstar wrote:
Is there a thread somewhere that lays out the "Branch" idea? I don't think I've ever encountered it in a game before, so I'm having a difficult time imagining how it works - and how it's different than the tree.

Here You Go

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Tree
Pros - All connected, easy to follow, triggers
Cons - Sometimes too many prerequisites can clutter and slow progress

Branch
Pros - Allows more variation through inventions
Cons - Not as many researches, some researches don't have inventions, this will make them seem less important

Let me add a Con to Tree, No Diversity.
Also, all Researches would have inventions. The Branches in the tree are the researches, and the minor things related to that branch are put in as inventions.

As I mentioned in my thread, I could work out a larger example for how the Research Web could look. Would anyone like me to do this?

How can every research have inventions? We have tried to convert all the researches we can into inventions, and they are still hugely outnumbered. Also, if we have researches and inventions how does the web offer more diversity other than penalising players for changing research paths?
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Smothmoth
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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyFri Feb 04, 2011 1:22 am

US_of_Alaska wrote:

How can every research have inventions? We have tried to convert all the researches we can into inventions, and they are still hugely outnumbered.

It was working pretty well for the example I was creating, I'll finish that up by tomorrow and post it.


US_of_Alaska wrote:
Also, if we have researches and inventions how does the web offer more diversity other than penalising players for changing research paths?

"Web" was just a name, my idea was pretty much always just the original tree with the inventions system / making it non-linear. I was also talking about a way to organize/visualize the tree, but I guess that got mixed up with the actually gameplay elements.

Anyway I'll finish that example, I think having it will help a ton.
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Commander Keen
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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyFri Feb 04, 2011 6:01 am

It doesn't matter if we have a web or tree, that is just visualisation. Both trees and webs can be made non-linear, the web just makes non-linear paths easier to read. Non-linearity really depends only on how the tree/web is made.

A large part of the non-linearity in your concept comes from branches. This will require quite a big change in the current tree, as most researches in it are meant as Breakthroughs.
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Smothmoth
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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyFri Feb 04, 2011 3:09 pm

Commander Keen wrote:
It doesn't matter if we have a web or tree, that is just visualisation. Both trees and webs can be made non-linear, the web just makes non-linear paths easier to read. Non-linearity really depends only on how the tree/web is made.

Yes, but people wanted a visualization of the concept, so I think working out a rough example would be a good idea. It doesn't have to be how we represent it in game, but having a visual will help everyone understand the concept better.

Commander Keen wrote:
A large part of the non-linearity in your concept comes from branches. This will require quite a big change in the current tree, as most researches in it are meant as Breakthroughs.

Some changes yes, but I think they are worth it.
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US_of_Alaska
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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyFri Feb 04, 2011 7:22 pm

I think the problem is that we still don't quite understand how the web is supposed to improve diversity, other than inventions, which we all agree should be included.
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Smothmoth
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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptyFri Feb 04, 2011 11:56 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:
I think the problem is that we still don't quite understand how the web is supposed to improve diversity, other than inventions, which we all agree should be included.

Inventions were pretty much it I guess, but what I was proposing had inventions greatly outnumber researches. Researches would be general areas of research, the inventions would represent all the byproducts of the effort focused into that field.

I've looked through the current research list, in my opinion the majority of the items could be considered inventions. While many could be seen as essential breakthroughs, they were still usually discovered by random chance. We could just greatly increase the discovery chance for the really important ones.

As for that example I was working on, I haven't had time to really put any work into it. I don't see myself having much free time in the next few weeks, so we will just have to do without the example.
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Commander Keen
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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptySat Feb 05, 2011 4:15 am

@Alaska: The web itself does nothing. We could have a classical tree without losing any diversity, it's just easier to organise and read. The only problem with web is that it has to be created in graphical form, unlike our current tree.

@Smoth: The only problem I see might be the number of inventions to branches. If we create too many branches with lots of inventions in them, then the player will get a "Your nation has discovered X" message every 5 seconds. If we don't create enough branches, then there will not be much diversity in research options, mostly after discovering the Scientific method. If we don't create enough inventions, variability will be severely limited. It will have to be made just right. A HUGE amount of work.
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US_of_Alaska
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PostSubject: Re: Decision Time   Decision Time - Page 2 EmptySat Feb 05, 2011 4:16 am

Smothmoth wrote:
US_of_Alaska wrote:
I think the problem is that we still don't quite understand how the web is supposed to improve diversity, other than inventions, which we all agree should be included.

Inventions were pretty much it I guess, but what I was proposing had inventions greatly outnumber researches. Researches would be general areas of research, the inventions would represent all the byproducts of the effort focused into that field.

I've looked through the current research list, in my opinion the majority of the items could be considered inventions. While many could be seen as essential breakthroughs, they were still usually discovered by random chance. We could just greatly increase the discovery chance for the really important ones.

As for that example I was working on, I haven't had time to really put any work into it. I don't see myself having much free time in the next few weeks, so we will just have to do without the example.
Okay. This'll help people who have a problem with the whole "sociological researches aren't researched" thing.
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