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Thrive Game Development

Development of the evolution game Thrive.
 
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 A Possible Problem with Niches...

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PostSubject: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptySun Mar 13, 2011 2:01 pm

So let's say that, hypothetically, you're playing Thrive, and right now, you're a semi-reptillian creature, somewhere between amphibians and modern reptiles/birds/mammals. You don't really want to be this creature for the rest of the game - you want to evolve into a "higher" Mammal-ish state. So you wait for a niche which will allow this evolution to occur to open up. You're waiting, waiting, waiting...

20 generations later, the niche you want either still hasn't opened up, or by the time it does open up, you're already too well adapted to your current niche to move out of it. Meanwhile, your creature has been slowly developing its reptillian characteristics in order for you to survive in the niche you're currently in - tougher skin, bigger teeth, etc. You've become a dinosaur. Except you don't want to be a dinosaur, you want to be that proto-mammal that your cousin evolved into!

The point I'm trying to make is this: What happens when your creature gets "stuck" in a niche that you don't want it to be in? What happens when you're so well-suited to your current niche that any attempt to move out of it would mean almost certain death for your creature? Perhaps this is a pointless concern, but I felt it needed to be brought up anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptyMon Mar 14, 2011 5:50 am

A while back...
Like months back...
In my early days here I suggested that when adaptations were applied to a creature, you had a choice to apply it or not.

Of course that system would have to be adapted to the current concept of niches...

I will see if I can dig it up hold on...

HERE:

Once upon a time, long ago, when the general ideas were Lamarckian and I was a bit of a n00b, I said:
Spoiler:
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Poisson
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptyMon Mar 14, 2011 12:38 pm

I sort of remember that that post, and after re-reading it, I like it. It allows only certain traits to evolve still, so you don't end up trying to evolve wings underwater, but gives the player choice still, something that we want to do if we want to keep the evolving part of this game just that: a game.
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penumbra espinosa
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptyTue Apr 26, 2011 10:46 pm

is that so?, how hard....

so the problem is adaptations, multitask creatures vs especiation...how the extintions work with the niches?

how frecuent they are (mass and regional extinctions)?, we know evolution takes time but how to make them adaptable?, also, must take mind that the environment doesnt change so fast.

i like the idea because when you evolve you have to loose some skills. but your example isnt well supported.

it would be more realist that if you're creature wants to become amphibian, it haves to deal with the problem of the gravity, the first generations would have to slowly adapt a powerfull skeleton and limbs if they want to stay on land. obviously if they get too good in land they'll have to loose their acuatic adaptations, and if they dont stay on land very often, they could de-evolve into acuatic forms again....also dont forget the UV radiation levels, amphibians suffer because of their dependence of water, and their skins must keep wet all the time (if they dont live in humid places)

i think its better explained like that.....
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mike roberts
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptyThu Apr 28, 2011 11:55 am

that is true to have a successful species ether living in the air, water,swamp,land,etc you will need specialization in order for you to be better in whatever ecosystem you choose to live. and it will be extremely nice to see "hey if choose to fly how would my creature look" and we should have something on the lines of what R136a1 said " if i want to be more like a mammal like my cousin how would that work out" i think we should have it , if we include the cousin type thing where they evolve a little differently then how we evolved we should be able to look at them and see there chooses like if my i made a frog creature and since i jumped a lot to pounce on pray they gave me the choose stronger leg power( higher jumps) i would say yes but if it said grow like wings and i said no i just want to jump more. BUT my other frog thing wanted to fly split from my species and evolved in to a swap glider and lets say i seen the swap glider and its doing really well and i'm still prey while its the top species i can go back and see if i can make a decision like and using the choices it made as blue prints.
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Mysterious_Calligrapher
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptyThu Apr 28, 2011 2:05 pm

Okay - Pezz brings up a good point about our intelligent aspect of design (I know there's an option to go full random wandering around here somewhere.)

I haven't gotten into niche programming with scio yet - but as I did population mechanics, and have somehow found myself doing biomes, I can answer the extinction questions, and offer some insurance that most niches aren't horribly exclusive.

1)We Are Not Going To Force Extinctions. We have random disasters and other events which will make situations less good for your creature, whether by increased predation, decreased reproductivity, decreased resources or anything else that you could name. If your organism is able to adapt to the new conditions fast enough, congratulations: you live. If not, extinction happens. As each species is tagged for population dynamics, and we are running checks against food/predator species to make sure that the populations affect each other, an extinction could be minor (one or two species) or major, especially if a keystone species is affected.

2)Population Dynamics Ensures a Dynamic Environment. You may not believe me, but it's true. Most species will be tagged with multiple food sources and potential predators. An increase in grass will allow a rabbit species to increase, which means the foxes can increase as well. But if the rabbits eat too much grass, there won't be enough of it. They will either starve off to a smaller population, adjusting other populations through a ripple effect, or start eating more of another food species, like carrots. The percentage resource reliance on carrots for rabbits in your area will go up, leading to increased carrot competition. Since they have to dig up the carrots, rabbits who are better carrot diggers will be favored in proportion to how important of a food source the carrots are. This can lead to harder claws, more muscle in the front paws, etc. However, more percentage muscle mass in the front paws means that there is less somewhere else, say the hind legs, which might make them slower runners. So we would eventually get rabbits that inhabit the middle ground between good digging and good running. That is all the effect of just one factor change.

In summary, I think I'll be posting a Population Dynamics explanation somewhere sometime soon, and you needn't worry excessively that you will evolve yourself into a corner. Unless you only have one predator or food resource, you probably will not be that specialized. It's not a matter of abruptly hopping niches: it's a matter of waiting for population dynamics to change, which will happen on a regular basis, and then taking baby steps.

/epicallylongCallipost
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mike roberts
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptySat Apr 30, 2011 7:43 am

i did not mention this but i really like Pezzalis idea of the "pop ups" type thing where you are in control of what traits your creature gets and doesn't get. that can make evolution simpler for new players while still add functionality for players like us
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The Uteen
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptySat Apr 30, 2011 12:01 pm

mike roberts wrote:
i did not mention this but i really like Pezzalis idea of the "pop ups" type thing where you are in control of what traits your creature gets and doesn't get. that can make evolution simpler for new players while still add functionality for players like us

I like the idea too, it does seem to be the best balance we've found yet of random and choice (Darwinian and Player), although I'd like to see the option to turn these notifications off and auto-accept them all, for players who want minimal interaction.

Speaking of minimal interaction, how are these ideas for evolution going to be implemented to observer mode? You select an organism to decide the traits of? (The player can still enter the editor, but this would be good for directing, rather than immediate, major changes)
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptySat Apr 30, 2011 2:32 pm

yes an "accept all" option would be a nice feature to add maybe when you start the game a little check box to to check if you want this or you want to have a specific creature in mind you can just have the messages pop up.
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specialk2121
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptyMon May 02, 2011 7:42 pm

i absolutely love that idea of evolution

but...2 ideas

1) I think that the meters and buttons and all that evolution stuff should be under a menu during the game
and after you say, swam for 10 hours you get a pop-up on the bottom of the screen that says "Swim Speed Upgrade" or something in that general theme

2) (this ones a Little more debatable) but after you click on the "Evolve" button you are brought into the creature editor to edit the specific part you are adding (you would be limited to only the parts you're editing, and will not be able to edit any other part of the creature.)
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US_of_Alaska
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptyMon May 02, 2011 8:31 pm

specialk2121 wrote:
i absolutely love that idea of evolution

but...2 ideas

1) I think that the meters and buttons and all that evolution stuff should be under a menu during the game
and after you say, swam for 10 hours you get a pop-up on the bottom of the screen that says "Swim Speed Upgrade" or something in that general theme

2) (this ones a Little more debatable) but after you click on the "Evolve" button you are brought into the creature editor to edit the specific part you are adding (you would be limited to only the parts you're editing, and will not be able to edit any other part of the creature.)
I like the idea of having a record down the bottom of the game menu, but i'm not so hot on the organism editor opening up...
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mike roberts
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptyTue May 03, 2011 3:34 pm

i agree with Alaska that would make this game more like the god awful spore
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specialk2121
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptyTue May 03, 2011 5:05 pm

so this means that the organism editor will only be for God Mode?
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US_of_Alaska
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptyTue May 03, 2011 6:25 pm

specialk2121 wrote:
so this means that the organism editor will only be for God Mode?
That's what it's always been intended for, and it will most likely stay that way, yes. Although it will also be available as a stand alone program or through the menu or something.
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptyTue May 03, 2011 6:39 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:
specialk2121 wrote:
so this means that the organism editor will only be for God Mode?
That's what it's always been intended for, and it will most likely stay that way, yes. Although it will also be available as a stand alone program or through the menu or something.

oh okay
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Mysterious_Calligrapher
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptyWed May 04, 2011 10:40 am

Oh no - we wouldn't want you to play for 50 hours before you got to the goodies every time you installed. Having the editors usable outside of the game was one of the better spore features.

I like the above ^^ and think that the menu there should be hidden so you can concentrate on doing whatever it is you do as a thriveasaurus, pond mold, or swimmy thing if you don't want to be bothered with pop-ups. Though we must make it clear in the tutorial where that bar is hidden, because players like me would find it a week later...
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specialk2121
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptyWed May 04, 2011 8:08 pm

I knew we were going to have them in the menu already

but...a tutorial
shouldn't somebody write a concept for that
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptyThu May 05, 2011 9:21 am

We might actually have to finish a couple of modes, first, SpecialK. Until then, I'm not sure I see the point starting the tutorial...
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptyThu May 05, 2011 8:15 pm

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
We might actually have to finish a couple of modes, first, SpecialK. Until then, I'm not sure I see the point starting the tutorial...
Tutorial comes after we have something coded. [/this part of the topic]
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptyFri May 06, 2011 6:33 pm

@OP

This was one of my fears with this system. How do you get where you want to go?

That's why I like pezzalis's evolution system. You're literally choosing your path, one tiny step at a time.
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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptySat May 07, 2011 10:12 am

roadkillguy wrote:
@OP

This was one of my fears with this system. How do you get where you want to go?

That's why I like pezzalis's evolution system. You're literally choosing your path, one tiny step at a time.
Like I keep saying, the only way to get you into later stages like sentience is for you to choose your evolution. There is no other way. Auto-evo won't work for players who want to get to sentience, because sentience is only one of many possible evolutionary ways around a problem.
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptySat May 07, 2011 4:03 pm

~sciocont wrote:
roadkillguy wrote:
@OP

This was one of my fears with this system. How do you get where you want to go?

That's why I like pezzalis's evolution system. You're literally choosing your path, one tiny step at a time.
Like I keep saying, the only way to get you into later stages like sentience is for you to choose your evolution. There is no other way. Auto-evo won't work for players who want to get to sentience, because sentience is only one of many possible evolutionary ways around a problem.
that is really true there is so many different evolutionary ways around things like instead of having a creature use tools ( more complex brain) it could just say make creature taller to get food. pezzalis's evolution system is the better one because evolution is not fast by any means is really really really slow and it must be important to change the creature whole body plan
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptySat May 07, 2011 5:35 pm

mike roberts wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
roadkillguy wrote:
@OP

This was one of my fears with this system. How do you get where you want to go?

That's why I like pezzalis's evolution system. You're literally choosing your path, one tiny step at a time.
Like I keep saying, the only way to get you into later stages like sentience is for you to choose your evolution. There is no other way. Auto-evo won't work for players who want to get to sentience, because sentience is only one of many possible evolutionary ways around a problem.
that is really true there is so many different evolutionary ways around things like instead of having a creature use tools ( more complex brain) it could just say make creature taller to get food. pezzalis's evolution system is the better one because evolution is not fast by any means is really really really slow and it must be important to change the creature whole body plan
Exactly. The computer can't come up with the stuff the player can.
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specialk2121
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptySat May 07, 2011 10:30 pm

mike roberts wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
roadkillguy wrote:
@OP

This was one of my fears with this system. How do you get where you want to go?

That's why I like pezzalis's evolution system. You're literally choosing your path, one tiny step at a time.
Like I keep saying, the only way to get you into later stages like sentience is for you to choose your evolution. There is no other way. Auto-evo won't work for players who want to get to sentience, because sentience is only one of many possible evolutionary ways around a problem.
that is really true there is so many different evolutionary ways around things like instead of having a creature use tools ( more complex brain) it could just say make creature taller to get food. pezzalis's evolution system is the better one because evolution is not fast by any means is really really really slow and it must be important to change the creature whole body plan

qft
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Poisson
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PostSubject: Re: A Possible Problem with Niches...   A Possible Problem with Niches... EmptySun May 08, 2011 12:59 am

So we seem to agree that a hybrid of Lamarkian and Darwinian evolution is required?
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