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 Early Multicellular - The current concept

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Pezzalis
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PostSubject: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:29 pm

Early Multicellular begins as soon as your single celled organism is able to bond with another cell of your species. Gameplay will be much the same as single celled stage (Eat single celled and other multicellular organisms for energy, attain enough energy to reproduce) except you will control an entire colony of cells.

OE will allow you to re-arrange your colony, when the cells begin to specialize.

Fist things first, you will need to understand this:

RedStar's Microbe stage Concept
Spoiler:
 


Early Multicellular stage:
Spoiler:
 

Microscopic Biomes

These biomes are based around earthly Planktic ecosystems.

Plankton on earth are defined by their niche rather than their classification, so I think that this early multicellular stage could be done quite easily with different variations of a pelagic, planktonic ecosystem.

What if at the start of each game, you start in a randomly selected (or a chosen) pelagic biome? You start there as a prokaryote and can leave when you enter full-3D organism mode.

(Could be tropical, freshwater, polar, etc and different global locations and water types will determine different niches).

Heres an example:

Spoiler:
 

We will probably need to make quite a few for varied early gameplay.

The 2D - 3D Transition and Template organisms

There will be a set number of cells (At this point there probably won't be individual cells but your creature will be divided into cell clusters with functions as far as game mechanics go) that when you pass it you will go from 2D -3D.
So if your something like a daphnia, you will go from seeing it like this:

Spoiler:
 

To this:

Spoiler:
 

The Transition:

Spoiler:
 


~Things To Be Discussed~

- The Cellular Tree
- OE/Auto-Evo - How?
- More specialized cells - Important ones
- Brains and Nervous systems - When?

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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:07 pm

I think we should change the set number for 3d depending on the planet size, or not
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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:40 am

kaosrain wrote:
I think we should change the set number for 3d depending on the planet size, or not

Not quite sure what you mean?

Basically when you pass a certain cell count/part count/mass etc your organism will be analyzed and related to its closest template organism. Over the next few generations, features of this organism will phase in, and it will be here where the camera is allowed slightly more freedom with each generation. When you have assumed the template organisms form, the camera is full 3D.

Planet size won't really have much to do with it...
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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:53 am

what about bones?
also what about swimming thermosinthesisers,how do we represent colors?
i think the more close you get to the 3d part the less diversity points you get


Last edited by kaosrain on Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:56 am

Excellent work on this. I've just read Wikipedia's entry on this, and it looks like we're right on track with it. The transition from these into template organisms seems to be the tricky part here.

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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:44 pm

Pezzalis wrote:

Basically when you pass a certain cell count/part count/mass etc your organism will be analyzed and related to its closest template organism. Over the next few generations, features of this organism will phase in, and it will be here where the camera is allowed slightly more freedom with each generation. When you have assumed the template organisms form, the camera is full 3D.

The reason we are using template organisms is to allow the the colony to become 3D without it getting too complicated, right? So that we don't have to make a program to make colonies 3D. But there will be some variables, right? I wont want to lose things in this process.

Also, diversity points? Aren't they used in the editor..? What have they got to do with this, and why less? That sentence has confused me a bit...

Anyway, nice concept. I think early multicellular deserves a new section, and I remember someone else saying the same. Are we agreed on this? Can we summon ADMIN from his mysterious home, a quarry in Wales?
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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:01 pm

bones are specialised cells i just discovered
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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:14 pm

The Uteen wrote:
Can we summon ADMIN from his mysterious home, a quarry in Wales?
Some say he once peeled 157 oranges underwater, and that he lives in a quarry... in Wales. All we know is, he's called ADMIN.

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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:45 am

Just dropping in to say that I like the concept so far. I'm still not a huge fan of the unicellular concept, but I suppose it works.

Also, I really, really think we should use auto-evo for early multicellular. If we used manual editing, it'd make for a rough transition from this stage to the next. It'd almost be like going into early multicellular saying to the player, "hey, you can edit your organism now!" and then after the transition to multicellular, saying, "whoops, you can't do that anymore! Sorry!" It just doesn't work very well.
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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:14 pm

R136a1 wrote:
Just dropping in to say that I like the concept so far. I'm still not a huge fan of the unicellular concept, but I suppose it works.

Also, I really, really think we should use auto-evo for early multicellular. If we used manual editing, it'd make for a rough transition from this stage to the next. It'd almost be like going into early multicellular saying to the player, "hey, you can edit your organism now!" and then after the transition to multicellular, saying, "whoops, you can't do that anymore! Sorry!" It just doesn't work very well.
I agree with this actually. Makes sense not to give, then take away.

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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:01 pm

Forgive me for missing it if its been concluded, but what is going on with Auto-Evo VS OE?

Are they optional? (IE you can choose between the two)
Or is OE unlocked with God tools? I was never sure!

P.S: Guess we need to discuss how Colonies could be constructed automatically then!
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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:09 pm

~sciocont wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
Can we summon ADMIN from his mysterious home, a quarry in Wales?
Some say he once peeled 157 oranges underwater, and that he lives in a quarry... in Wales. All we know is, he's called ADMIN.The Stig.
I have the same question as Pezz, does the player get to edit their race?
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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:23 pm

caekdaemon wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
Can we summon ADMIN from his mysterious home, a quarry in Wales?
Some say he once peeled 157 oranges underwater, and that he lives in a quarry... in Wales. All we know is, he's called ADMIN.The Stig.
I have the same question as Pezz, does the player get to edit their race?
I think It's best to have the absorption system do all of the evolving until you get specialized cells.

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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:30 pm

~sciocont wrote:
caekdaemon wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
Can we summon ADMIN from his mysterious home, a quarry in Wales?
Some say he once peeled 157 oranges underwater, and that he lives in a quarry... in Wales. All we know is, he's called ADMIN.The Stig.
I have the same question as Pezz, does the player get to edit their race?
I think It's best to have the absorption system do all of the evolving until you get specialized cells.

Yes, for Microbial we are following the endosymbiotic theory. At multicellular (When you get specialized cells) we are teetering between OE and Auto Evo.
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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:46 pm

OK So we more or less have all the basics down. Now we need to determine how we can turn it into game-play.

Food and Energy
I think we should go with a depleting energy bar that slowly empties when you don't find food. When you eat/photosynthesize, the bar replenishes depending on the food you ate, your way of eating it (A digestive efficiency stat/perk will be tagged to specialized cells/parts) etc.
If the bar empties, some of your colonies cells will begin to die, some will function less efficiently, your colony will essentially be fatigued. You will only have a short amount of time to find food before you die.

Death and Damage
Cells will sustain damage if their cell membrane is broken, if subject to toxins or if broken off from the colony.
Cells will die when they do not receive enough energy, or sustain too much damage.
When more than 20% of your cells die, your entire colony will perish, and you will begin from the start of the generation.
As a visual indicator to the player, a cell count could be given on the GUI. It will increase or decrease according to the amount of cells in the colony.
This area still needs work.

Reproduction
Needs work.

Evolutionary Growth
Like Uteen suggested, the camera will continue to zoom out to account for the size of your colony, and phase out details of smaller cells. There will be a limit to how far you can zoom in so your hard drive doesn't implode from rendering hundreds of cells. Eventually as you get larger, clusters of cells will be 'transformed' into a single entity rather than several. The different clusters will be determined by what that area of cells can do. If its an area of hardened cells, it will be turned into a hard cluster, or a shell. If its an area of light sensitive cells, it will be turned into a light sensitive cluster. These clusters will all have their own cell count relative to the whole colonies cell count. If they are damaged, the cell count will be reduced by the magnitude of damage to that cluster.

IE if a cluster has 100 cells, and it is damaged 20% by a toxin, then 20 cells will be lost.

If you have 30 clusters each with 100 cells (Number could vary), your cell count is 3000. At this stage this value could be dumbed down to represent health points or be shown in the current complex damage system, but that area needs a bit of work.


Thats my brain dump for today. If I find more time, more shall come. If you have your own ideas or criticisms, please share
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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:39 pm

Everything sounds good, pezz.

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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:11 pm

Reproduction - will get back to you on that. Might even be able to dig out my bio notes...
Basically, it's kind of complicated. I'll dump some info on you in the next few days if I have time, but there are several stages, and several variations, for several types of creatures, including sponges, jellies, hydras, etc.

Other than that, I want to point out that breaking apart can be good for a colony - if the cells aren't very specialized. The broken-off chunk can become a new colony if both chunks have all the cell groups necessary for survival. So, very simple forms this is good for, more complicated forms (such as jellies) this is bad for.

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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:10 pm

Good ideas, but there are a few comments from self-proclaimed Sgt. Negativity Z. Moan-a-lot. I'm not sure about the energy bar, in late multicellular the current interface uses glowing coloured shards, could we use them to keep it consistent? It's one less thing to transition, and bars have already been done thousands of times before.

A cell count... Would that be a health equivalent? Would it be a bar? Or worse, the old thing of '393/5143 remaining!'? Well, there's the good old health shard we could use, a good idea of your health in a single glance. And what's worse, did you just say... Health points?

Turning over to Prof. Positive, I like the sound of clustering the cells into 'parts'. Would this maybe be accompanied by the arrival of the complex damage indicator? (As a reminder to whoever, the idea was to click the shard, game pause, and each part's health is represented by colours) It seems a good place to bring it in, when the game starts to create the 'parts'. Although would this be when it's still 2D? Well, it'd make it easier to bring in, by being a simple diagram.
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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:33 am

The Uteen wrote:
Good ideas, but there are a few comments from self-proclaimed Sgt. Negativity Z. Moan-a-lot. I'm not sure about the energy bar, in late multicellular the current interface uses glowing coloured shards, could we use them to keep it consistent? It's one less thing to transition, and bars have already been done thousands of times before.

A cell count... Would that be a health equivalent? Would it be a bar? Or worse, the old thing of '393/5143 remaining!'? Well, there's the good old health shard we could use, a good idea of your health in a single glance. And what's worse, did you just say... Health points?

Turning over to Prof. Positive, I like the sound of clustering the cells into 'parts'. Would this maybe be accompanied by the arrival of the complex damage indicator? (As a reminder to whoever, the idea was to click the shard, game pause, and each part's health is represented by colours) It seems a good place to bring it in, when the game starts to create the 'parts'. Although would this be when it's still 2D? Well, it'd make it easier to bring in, by being a simple diagram.

Of course energy bars/health bars or the dreaded 'point' word are malleable enough to fit any kind of system we are going for so right now they don't really need to be finalized - assume 'bar' as any kind of visual indicator that we end up deciding on.

I don't think we will ever have a fully 2D game space, like spores cell stage.
I don't see why a player shouldn't be able to observe his colony in 3D with glowing red parts for damage. Or maybe I should go read the complex damage thread. BRB.

People who hack Spore can put creature stage creatures in the cellular environment, and it works (Of course they appear as cell-sized). If we could have Huge 3D Organisms swimming past our little cell colonies it could really give a player their sense of scale. Thats why I propose that we have micro-biomes, where not only other cells or colonies but huge filter feeders are a potential predator.

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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:39 am

Pezzalis wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
Good ideas, but there are a few comments from self-proclaimed Sgt. Negativity Z. Moan-a-lot. I'm not sure about the energy bar, in late multicellular the current interface uses glowing coloured shards, could we use them to keep it consistent? It's one less thing to transition, and bars have already been done thousands of times before.

A cell count... Would that be a health equivalent? Would it be a bar? Or worse, the old thing of '393/5143 remaining!'? Well, there's the good old health shard we could use, a good idea of your health in a single glance. And what's worse, did you just say... Health points?

Turning over to Prof. Positive, I like the sound of clustering the cells into 'parts'. Would this maybe be accompanied by the arrival of the complex damage indicator? (As a reminder to whoever, the idea was to click the shard, game pause, and each part's health is represented by colours) It seems a good place to bring it in, when the game starts to create the 'parts'. Although would this be when it's still 2D? Well, it'd make it easier to bring in, by being a simple diagram.

Of course energy bars/health bars or the dreaded 'point' word are malleable enough to fit any kind of system we are going for so right now they don't really need to be finalized - assume 'bar' as any kind of visual indicator that we end up deciding on.

I don't think we will ever have a fully 2D game space, like spores cell stage.
I don't see why a player shouldn't be able to observe his colony in 3D with glowing red parts for damage. Or maybe I should go read the complex damage thread. BRB.

People who hack Spore can put creature stage creatures in the cellular environment, and it works (Of course they appear as cell-sized). If we could have Huge 3D Organisms swimming past our little cell colonies it could really give a player their sense of scale. Thats why I propose that we have micro-biomes, where not only other cells or colonies but huge filter feeders are a potential predator.


Okay, and I didn't realise colony would be 3D, I thought it would transition into it as you reach late. Well then, we can go straight to complex damage in all it's 3D glory!

Would you be able to see the cells of these huge 3D organisms, when you're still quite small? That'd be cool, seeing the edge of a colony of billions. That would be a sense of scale, if we could have that in the background.
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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:56 am

Filter feeders = love. In the words of the Krill from Finding Nemo, "Swim Away! Swim Away!"

And this is the reproductive dump for you, because I have time and no inclanation to move or speak spanish after that final I just came back from.

A la Jellyfish: Potentially the most complicated way to get new organisms, ever.
Spoiler:
 

A La Hydra (a.k.a. asexual reproduction and sexual reproduction, for one confused critter.)
Spoiler:
 

A la sponge (they, like hydra, can reproduce both ways, but have three methods of asexual reproduction, making me even more confused. The sponges are not confused, because they have no neurons and thus do not think.)
Spoiler:
 

Yeah. I don't envy whoever codes reproduction for this stage one bit.

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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:23 am

I saw a documentary about jellyfish. They are weird. And all of the 'grooves' separate to form jellyfish. And the fact these can then eat, grow, and split too, while producing more and more jellyfish... It's like there's two different creatures in its DNA. This isn't just the worst reproductive system to attempt to include ever, it also means we need the option in the organism editor to make all these stages of growth, and the weird form of splitting they use.

...I'm surprise more creatures don't use this form of reproduction, though. The offspring not only make loads of jellyfish each, but they can reproduce too! Overpopulation = dominance of ecosystem = extinction of competition. The only reason they aren't completely dominant is the fact they're slightly lacking in everything else. They're like the animal form of Microsoft.


Also, I'd forgotten cell used layers. It wont happen again. But what sort of 3D will colony be using? Late, or microbial? Or a weird yet interesting combination?
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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:54 am

Well, there are the arguments that I would make about it being much harder to copy more complexity, leading to jellyfish being overabundant but overall pretty simple life. Coding this wouldn't be too hard - okay, the coding itself would bite the belgium, but I assume that of all coding beyond that required to play tetris - because what you need is a few conditions tags. For example, stage one of the jellies requires a large concentration of jellies in one spot.
As far as the stalks just popping off more baby jellies goes, there's an evolutionary disadvantage to asexual cloning, and it really doesn't work for much more complex organisms (except when conditions are very right.) Bottom line is, they all use combination reproduction, so we probably should have that option somehow. Probably. Even if it makes us all hate the non-existent guts of the jellyfish...

Oh dear. I tend to leave the graphics aspect to those who know better, so I couldn't tell you, Uteen. I'm leaning towards the "unholy hybrid" option though, because we tend to do that.

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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Wed May 18, 2011 2:44 am

Putting jellyfish mating procedures aside for a single post,

Im going to have a crack at creating a prototype for microbial -> Colony stage in game maker. I am an absolute cab with most complex script based programming so Im not exactly the person to be making a pre alpha for this stage with the actual engine/openGL/more advanced programming tools, so Im just seeing how the gameplay will function, and also because I found a whole bunch of free time lying under my bed, and Im bored
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PostSubject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept   Sat May 21, 2011 11:48 am

Good. Let us all know how it turns up, okay?

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