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 Implementing Underwater Civilizations

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PTFace
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sat May 26, 2012 1:45 pm

~sciocont wrote:
Ok, to answer the melting questions, I've written a bit of an editorial on this subject. Though lead does melt at a low temperature, it's soft and is fairly reactive, so it would corrode easily at high temperatures underwater. You can find the full text here.

Even if lead is soft, I could kill a jellyfish with a brick of it.
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Commander Keen
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sat May 26, 2012 5:24 pm

Melting point of lead is around 320 degrees C. DNA can melt at half that temperature, meaning the temp is way too high for any Thrive organism to survive. Even if the organism somehow managed to stay away from the heat, the water react with the lead and contaminate itself, poisoning the creature.
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penumbra espinosa
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sat May 26, 2012 11:27 pm

i suggest it again, these are the things that maybe we cant get them to work in a realistic way but we could make them avaliable just for the LOLs........or at least for the sake of Sci Fi...Thrive is gonna be a game anyways, we cannot do all by scientific ways we have to add the funny parts too.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sun May 27, 2012 9:53 am

penumbra espinosa wrote:
i suggest it again, these are the things that maybe we cant get them to work in a realistic way but we could make them avaliable just for the LOLs........or at least for the sake of Sci Fi...Thrive is gonna be a game anyways, we cannot do all by scientific ways we have to add the funny parts too.
He is right, although less funny and more sci-fi, but even the most is realistic.
But I truly think we NEED sci-fi. So I ask for sci-fi from sciocont, or Mysterious Calligrapher or Commander Keen, 'cause You guys know the most, and I respect You all.
No better way like suckin' up to the boss eh?
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The Uteen
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sun May 27, 2012 5:51 pm

MeowMan1 wrote:
penumbra espinosa wrote:
i suggest it again, these are the things that maybe we cant get them to work in a realistic way but we could make them avaliable just for the LOLs........or at least for the sake of Sci Fi...Thrive is gonna be a game anyways, we cannot do all by scientific ways we have to add the funny parts too.
He is right, although less funny and more sci-fi, but even the most is realistic.
But I truly think we NEED sci-fi. So I ask for sci-fi from sciocont, or Mysterious Calligrapher or Commander Keen, 'cause You guys know the most, and I respect You all.
No better way like suckin' up to the boss eh?
We already have faster-than-light travel, an necessity for space-travel beyond the solar system, which is sci-fi fantasy. I don't like how people always mix up science-based fiction and fantasy... And group them together. But to put a long rant short, we already have unrealism, because space would be impossible to play without it. Underwater species can already be uplifted, so there is a way to get higher tech. It's not impossible, and more importantly, it's not necessary for gameplay. If you want to get to space without relying on being uplifted, don't become an underwater species. It's as simple as that. In fact, you could even just get another of your species to uplift your aquatic ones, so you don't even have to rely on random chance! Isn't that enough?

P.S. Returning to the rant a moment, let me explain the difference between sci-fi and fantasy. Sci-fi is possible. Not real, not even going to happen, but the point is, it's fiction. A story which could happen, but someone made up. The science part means it is related to science, so it could happen due to advances in science and technology. Fantasy, on the other hand, is impossible. A story someone made up which is impossible in the real world, according to our current understanding of it, and currently, all our efforts show underwater civilisations achieving high technological advancement is fantasy, and not sci-fi. There is a distinct distinction, get it right, people!

Okay, end of rant.
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MeowMan1
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sun May 27, 2012 7:34 pm

Oh. I thought sometimes sci-fi was realistic and other times it wasn't....
ok, Thanks Uteen!
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penumbra espinosa
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sun May 27, 2012 10:55 pm

The Uteen wrote:
MeowMan1 wrote:
penumbra espinosa wrote:
i suggest it again, these are the things that maybe we cant get them to work in a realistic way but we could make them avaliable just for the LOLs........or at least for the sake of Sci Fi...Thrive is gonna be a game anyways, we cannot do all by scientific ways we have to add the funny parts too.
He is right, although less funny and more sci-fi, but even the most is realistic.
But I truly think we NEED sci-fi. So I ask for sci-fi from sciocont, or Mysterious Calligrapher or Commander Keen, 'cause You guys know the most, and I respect You all.
No better way like suckin' up to the boss eh?
We already have faster-than-light travel, an necessity for space-travel beyond the solar system, which is sci-fi fantasy. I don't like how people always mix up science-based fiction and fantasy... And group them together. But to put a long rant short, we already have unrealism, because space would be impossible to play without it. Underwater species can already be uplifted, so there is a way to get higher tech. It's not impossible, and more importantly, it's not necessary for gameplay. If you want to get to space without relying on being uplifted, don't become an underwater species. It's as simple as that. In fact, you could even just get another of your species to uplift your aquatic ones, so you don't even have to rely on random chance! Isn't that enough?

P.S. Returning to the rant a moment, let me explain the difference between sci-fi and fantasy. Sci-fi is possible. Not real, not even going to happen, but the point is, it's fiction. A story which could happen, but someone made up. The science part means it is related to science, so it could happen due to advances in science and technology. Fantasy, on the other hand, is impossible. A story someone made up which is impossible in the real world, according to our current understanding of it, and currently, all our efforts show underwater civilisations achieving high technological advancement is fantasy, and not sci-fi. There is a distinct distinction, get it right, people!

Okay, end of rant.

not agreed yet, so the people who want to get their underwater civilization to space has to get over that they'll never be able to do it by themselves and have to rely in another civilization to do it?, i say no.

i give the option of advanced neoteny and selective breeding, for the ones who want to take the challenge of doing it.

you people say that its not possible because of the tech editor, i should be able to create a technology for that, i mean, you gotta be kidding if you need to base domestication in fire manipulation.

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PTFace
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Mon May 28, 2012 12:09 am

Have we discussed the possibility of you wanting to evolve to a land species but eventually being uplifted before you can? Will you have a choice or not so much?
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Mon May 28, 2012 12:45 pm

MeowMan1 wrote:
Oh. I thought sometimes sci-fi was realistic and other times it wasn't....
ok, Thanks Uteen!
That's because most of current science-fiction is really just science-fantasy, but they just get grouped together because their idea of a typical audience will just assume 'The genre must be science, because they gave it a fancy name and made it require an energy source.', which is misleading and can make people confused about what is realistically possible and what isn't.

penumbra espinosa wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
MeowMan1 wrote:
penumbra espinosa wrote:
i suggest it again, these are the things that maybe we cant get them to work in a realistic way but we could make them avaliable just for the LOLs........or at least for the sake of Sci Fi...Thrive is gonna be a game anyways, we cannot do all by scientific ways we have to add the funny parts too.
He is right, although less funny and more sci-fi, but even the most is realistic.
But I truly think we NEED sci-fi. So I ask for sci-fi from sciocont, or Mysterious Calligrapher or Commander Keen, 'cause You guys know the most, and I respect You all.
No better way like suckin' up to the boss eh?
We already have faster-than-light travel, an necessity for space-travel beyond the solar system, which is sci-fi fantasy. I don't like how people always mix up science-based fiction and fantasy... And group them together. But to put a long rant short, we already have unrealism, because space would be impossible to play without it. Underwater species can already be uplifted, so there is a way to get higher tech. It's not impossible, and more importantly, it's not necessary for gameplay. If you want to get to space without relying on being uplifted, don't become an underwater species. It's as simple as that. In fact, you could even just get another of your species to uplift your aquatic ones, so you don't even have to rely on random chance! Isn't that enough?

P.S. Returning to the rant a moment, let me explain the difference between sci-fi and fantasy. Sci-fi is possible. Not real, not even going to happen, but the point is, it's fiction. A story which could happen, but someone made up. The science part means it is related to science, so it could happen due to advances in science and technology. Fantasy, on the other hand, is impossible. A story someone made up which is impossible in the real world, according to our current understanding of it, and currently, all our efforts show underwater civilisations achieving high technological advancement is fantasy, and not sci-fi. There is a distinct distinction, get it right, people!

Okay, end of rant.

not agreed yet, so the people who want to get their underwater civilization to space has to get over that they'll never be able to do it by themselves and have to rely in another civilization to do it?, i say no.
Why do people want to get their underwater civilisation to space anyway? If they want to reach space, be a land species!

i give the option of advanced neoteny and selective breeding, for the ones who want to take the challenge of doing it.
The whole reason this isn't a valid option is because the challenge is impossible in difficulty, and that's even if the species had a reason to try in the first place. Containing a creature underwater with the equipment available would be difficult, and this extreme of domestication is near impossible even without that limitation. In addition, even if they managed it this will only take technology to a point, and this point is long before space, or even land. If they did manage to get another sentient amphibious species to smelt metals for them, that would just be an unlikely form of being uplifted.

you people say that its not possible because of the tech editor, i should be able to create a technology for that, i mean, you gotta be kidding if you need to base domestication in fire manipulation.
Domestication doesn't require fire manipulation, it requires a way to contain/control an organism for a length of time, up to it's entire lifespan. It isn't that it is not possible because of the tech editor, it's that it's not possible because it isn't possible. Sorry, but that, unless a realistically viable method is found, is established fact.

PTFace wrote:
Have we discussed the possibility of you wanting to evolve to a land species but eventually being uplifted before you can? Will you have a choice or not so much?
Well, sentience is required in order to actually be technologically uplifted, otherwise the technology just can't be understood. So just refrain from doing the things that trigger sentience until you reach land and you should be fine. I think we came up with a list of those things, somewhere on the forums.

Now then...


Implementing Underwater Civilisations - The Current State Of Things

So, there are two reasons that advanced civilisations would be implemented:
  1. Gameplay is not possible without it, or it severely hinders Thrive's playability. Evolving into a land creature is a perfectly viable way of advancing further up the tech tree, it is simple enough to do, and there's literally until the end of the world to do it in.

  2. It is possible in reality. Our endless stream of ideas, being found, unfortunately, to be impossible, have pretty much established that advanced under-water technology is just not possible.


So, if anyone has a realistic theory of how this is possible without the involvement of other species, which has been seriously thought-through with at least a few facts to back it up, then they may put it forward, because that would get this matter settled for good.

Until then:

End of discussion.
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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Mon May 28, 2012 3:17 pm

[/thread] for now.

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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:04 pm

How'd he do that drill thing?!
so, are we done with this thread or what, Sciocont?
Seems to me like we need to be uplifted unless someone comes up with some brilliant plan.
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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:11 pm

MeowMan1 wrote:
How'd he do that drill thing?!
so, are we done with this thread or what, Sciocont?
Seems to me like we need to be uplifted unless someone comes up with some brilliant plan.
Yep, that's what
[/thread] means. There's no need for anyone to post here again, but it won't be locked.
[/thread]

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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:05 pm

I think I just found a way for intelligent life, and it is so idiotically simple.

Basically, you mine out copper and then you hold it over a volcanic vent, and then you hammer it into place. Simple as that.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:55 pm

Flashman wrote:
I think I just found a way for intelligent life, and it is so idiotically simple.

Basically, you mine out copper and then you hold it over a volcanic vent, and then you hammer it into place. Simple as that.
Ugh, not this again
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:03 pm

The idea of mining surface deposits and hammering them into shape over volcanic vents has been proposed before?


If so, could you please point out any flaws?
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:13 pm

It's been proposed many times. The flaws have already been pointed out, you can even find them on this thread
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:21 pm

You dont nesscisarily have to smelt copper- you can just put it in the areas near it, then hammer it into shape. This would eventually lead to an age wherre people are experimenting with pumps and create air pockets and eventually fire.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:28 pm

but then where would You get the hammer?
I thought we settled on the fact that this will not be possible.
I think in space phase You could colonize the oceans of your home planet, or any other planet.
Otherwise, I think this thread is done for.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:26 pm

Using basic Obsidian or stone- it's how humanity first used copper, we hammered it into shape with stone. And this would be even easier if it was being heated to 500 celsius
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:23 pm

Have you considered that the water around the vent would be greatly heated as well? The team's gone over this before, the only way for an aquatic civilization is if you're amphibious, you colonize your oceans in space stage, or you make biological suits that can allow you land access and even with those it would take a long time.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:43 pm

Say if you evolved either around it or to hunt those that live d around it- it would be a rare occurrence, to be sure, a one in a hundred chance of you being able to start upa civ, but it can happen if you put in enough work and you get lucky.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:45 pm

Ask anyone and they'll say no. I'm sorry, you're not going to get anywhere with this.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:30 pm

He is right. Sorry, but like I said earlier, I think this topic may as well be deleted.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:30 pm

ANYONE WHO POSTS SOMETHING ON HERE WHICH HAS ALREADY BEEN DISCUSSED WILL BE BANNED FOR A SMALL AMOUNT OF TIME.

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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:04 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:
specialk2121 wrote:
Xenopologist wrote:
The fact remains that we never found a way around the problem that underwater civilizations can't develop fire, and therefore can't shape metal, and therefore can't do a lot of the stuff we associate with civilization at all.

These "aquatic people" could use heat vents that are on the bottom of the oceanfloor to shape metal
More heat is required.

But seriously, those vents are nowhere near hot enough to be used for this. There is no fire substitute, much like there is no water substitute. This has been debated millions of times, and the underwater civilisations always lose.

However, there's no reason an intelligent creature like the octopus couldn't have evolved to be less solitary and started to build communities that all hunted together and built cities for their tribes out of rocks they have collected. They could even have religion and wars, but everything would be stone-knapped.

Well, what about this: The aquatic civilizations create vehicles ranging from submarines to spaceships not out of metal, but from a form of either organic substances such as sturdy sponge-like structures that are impervious to the elements of space when treated with chemicals, or is in fact amphibious, and so while they must live under or near water to survive, but can come out of it to create fire and thus cook food, forge alloys, and create metal tools and vehicles, then return to the water to dwell and procreate.
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