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 Implementing Underwater Civilizations

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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:29 pm

Kraeken wrote:
Shouldn't we leave an open variable in case the player is more creative then us? Just set the "Metal Working Ability" to be usable if the species can repeatedly create temps over 'x' degrees? (who knows how, but this seems more in the spirit of the game to me)
Read above post.

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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:15 am

A civilization underwater, in my opinion, is at a disadvantage compared to civilizations like ours out of the water because we filter all according to our knowledges of our civilization ...

A civilization of sentient creatures underwater can create huge domes without water, connected by pipes to the outside to allow oxygen to enter, where they work in metals with special suits to allow them to live in the presence of oxygen ( a bit like our suits to go under the water but whose function in reverse).

What do you think?

P. S. sorry my bad english
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:42 pm

[quote="Doggit"]A civilization underwater, in my opinion, is at a disadvantage compared to civilizations like ours out of the water because we filter all according to our knowledges of our civilization ...

QFT.
The hard part is deciding where our perception ends and reality begins. Domes seems possible, many organisms excrete gases that are at least somewhat flammable (see methane fires in swamps), so containing them isnt all that much of a stretch. Just gotta keep it open I say.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:00 pm

I would like to ask if it would be possible to uplift a underwater species when you had enough technology.

Say for example, you species evolved on a planet with little land and open oceans. Your race was comparable to pelicans and the main diet was fish. I think it would be interesting if it would be possible to uplift, say, a manatee like species to herd fish into one location. It would allow workers in the food section of an economy to work in other places.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:31 pm

PTFace wrote:
I would like to ask if it would be possible to uplift a underwater species when you had enough technology.

Say for example, you species evolved on a planet with little land and open oceans. Your race was comparable to pelicans and the main diet was fish. I think it would be interesting if it would be possible to uplift, say, a manatee like species to herd fish into one location. It would allow workers in the food section of an economy to work in other places.
Yeah, you're free to share technology with other races. For the other two, that's what I mean when I say TECHNOLOGICALLY AMPHIBIOUS.

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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:45 pm

~sciocont wrote:
PTFace wrote:
I would like to ask if it would be possible to uplift a underwater species when you had enough technology.

Say for example, you species evolved on a planet with little land and open oceans. Your race was comparable to pelicans and the main diet was fish. I think it would be interesting if it would be possible to uplift, say, a manatee like species to herd fish into one location. It would allow workers in the food section of an economy to work in other places.
Yeah, you're free to share technology with other races. For the other two, that's what I mean when I say TECHNOLOGICALLY AMPHIBIOUS.
Does that mean advanced alien races will be able to uplift your species from jellyfish to intelligent beings?
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penumbra espinosa
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Tue May 01, 2012 12:04 am

why not taking another approach?, i recently read a book called "All Tomorrows", and noticed the idea for an underwater civilization, this dolphin-like human descendants have mastered bioengineering and all their technnology is based in living structures, living houses covered in shells which use bioluminiscense and nerves as powergrids, their tools are also living creatures and even their spaceships are gigantic organisms adapted to living in the void of space.

okai this could sound very implausible, but the idea of biotechnnology is recurrent in the sci fi universe, just wanted to see if it can be done for enabling underwater civilizations.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Tue May 01, 2012 10:49 am

penumbra espinosa wrote:
why not taking another approach?, i recently read a book called "All Tomorrows", and noticed the idea for an underwater civilization, this dolphin-like human descendants have mastered bioengineering and all their technnology is based in living structures, living houses covered in shells which use bioluminiscense and nerves as powergrids, their tools are also living creatures and even their spaceships are gigantic organisms adapted to living in the void of space.

okai this could sound very implausible, but the idea of biotechnnology is recurrent in the sci fi universe, just wanted to see if it can be done for enabling underwater civilizations.
Wouldn't they need rather advanced technology to get that good at bio-engineering?
I suppose there's the possibility it could happen naturally, but that's infinitesimally small.

PTFace wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
PTFace wrote:
I would like to ask if it would be possible to uplift a underwater species when you had enough technology.

Say for example, you species evolved on a planet with little land and open oceans. Your race was comparable to pelicans and the main diet was fish. I think it would be interesting if it would be possible to uplift, say, a manatee like species to herd fish into one location. It would allow workers in the food section of an economy to work in other places.
Yeah, you're free to share technology with other races. For the other two, that's what I mean when I say TECHNOLOGICALLY AMPHIBIOUS.
Does that mean advanced alien races will be able to uplift your species from jellyfish to intelligent beings?
Somewhat.

Firstly, to become an intelligent being, a species must have a brain. To have a brain, it must have access to a lot of nutrients from its food, which means eating some sort of plant, so a mouth & stomach must be present, and have protection for the brain and stomach, otherwise one hit and it loses half its brain-cells and chunders everywhere. Also, muscles will most likely be needed to move it to the plants to get enough to develop all these body parts, and presumably to power chewing...

So... If the jellyfish were bio-engineered to meet all those things, thus becoming something distinctly not like a jellyfish, then yes, they could become intelligent beings.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Tue May 01, 2012 2:35 pm

in the book the acuatic humans developed a mutualism with little acuatic creatures much like it happens between several marine species, this lead to a primitive manipulation of fauna which then evolved to an archaic form of engineering, it took several millions of years for them to make it in actual technnology....but it was basically domestication, they took some creatures and breeded them in order to create more useful companions, at the point that they became living tools and structures. of course the time needed to do that would be really big, just imagine how much time it took for men to get all the several Dogs and Cats breeds and other domestic animals. the acuatic civilization did that for several milennia at the point of creating biotechnnology in an organic way.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Tue May 01, 2012 3:02 pm

penumbra espinosa wrote:
in the book the acuatic humans developed a mutualism with little acuatic creatures much like it happens between several marine species, this lead to a primitive manipulation of fauna which then evolved to an archaic form of engineering, it took several millions hundreds of millions, lets be reasonable, they're making space-ships! of years for them to make it in actual technnology....but it was basically domestication, they took some creatures and breeded them in order to create more useful companions, at the point that they became living tools and structures. of course the time needed to do that would be really big, just imagine how much time it took for men to get all the several Dogs and Cats breeds and other domestic animals. the acuatic civilization did that for several milennia at the point of creating biotechnnology in an organic way.
...

Selective breeding, I suppose that's one way. One very slow way, getting exactly what you want from the organisms through selective breeding alone... They'd need a lot of care. Nevertheless, if a project like that can be completed before the sun goes supernova, it's something that should be considered, I suppose.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Tue May 01, 2012 3:15 pm

well in the book the acuatic civilization developed that archaic domestication before getting sapient, thus giving them an advance. but from the evolutionary point, yeah they must have been living in a planet orbiting some sort of red dwarf or the like. its too much time.

for the ones interested in the book here's a link to the online version:

http://www.sivatherium.narod.ru/library/Ramjet/01_en.htm

the autor is Nemo Ramjet, the artist who created the alien planet Snaiad.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Mon May 14, 2012 3:01 am

penumbra espinosa wrote:
well in the book the acuatic civilization developed that archaic domestication before getting sapient, thus giving them an advance. but from the evolutionary point, yeah they must have been living in a planet orbiting some sort of red dwarf or the like. its too much time.

for the ones interested in the book here's a link to the online version:

http://www.sivatherium.narod.ru/library/Ramjet/01_en.htm

the autor is Nemo Ramjet, the artist who created the alien planet Snaiad.
can we leave it that a civ cannot be fully aquatic as of the lack of smithing but can be partially aquatic ( like the gungans in star wars who like underwater but have developed to be amphibious.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Mon May 14, 2012 11:19 am

If you can get an amphibious creature to interact with and harness fire, go for it.
Last decision that I recall was that fully aquatic creatures get to be sentient (sapient's rather different) and can be aware and all that, but they only get a little bit of the tech tree, not enough to really hit civ stage, because of a pesky thing called physics. They could, theoretically, make things out of stone (by hitting it with other rocks) but the technique (and the abilitiy to use such weapons) would be made different and difficult by the density of the water where they live.

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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Mon May 14, 2012 5:55 pm

I do understand that, but could these aquatic species go up to land for a short time, make fire, make a casing of naturl resources to protect the fire, carry it into the ocean, and use the protected fire another source of heat and eventually use it for heating raw food, that is once they are sentient? because if the fire is protected enough not to go out, then couldn't they then have fire underwater? If they can breathe for a little while on land also?
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Mon May 14, 2012 7:23 pm

the thing is that amphibian species arent complete underwater civilizations, i wanted to get an approach that didnt have the necessity of developing fire.

the example of selective breeding in the game works as a nice solution, a very slow but functional.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Mon May 14, 2012 10:09 pm

MeowMan1 wrote:
I do understand that, but could these aquatic species go up to land for a short time, make fire, make a casing of naturl resources to protect the fire, carry it into the ocean, and use the protected fire another source of heat and eventually use it for heating raw food, that is once they are sentient? because if the fire is protected enough not to go out, then couldn't they then have fire underwater? If they can breathe for a little while on land also?

Fire needs oxygen in a gaseous form. Sure, you can seal a glass bubble full of fire, but it will put itself out when it runs out of oxygen. Also, it would float.

Extinction time in sealed environment is under a minute per cubic foot of air. Physics says no.

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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Tue May 15, 2012 2:33 pm

Underwater civilizations are doomed. I am new but I can see the conclusion people before me reached. As much as I like the idea you can't and you will not make a Underwater Civ all the way to space. The only thing that can make a underwater civ true is if it is uplifted by aliens. Look at the hanar from Mass Effect these jellyfish only reached space because the Proteans Uplifted them.

I think would make more sense discuss if a civ could go to space in a high mass world. (Elcor... So what I like Mass Effect?)
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Tue May 15, 2012 2:50 pm

Theusfilipe wrote:
Underwater civilizations are doomed. I am new but I can see the conclusion people before me reached. As much as I like the idea you can't and you will not make a Underwater Civ all the way to space. The only thing that can make a underwater civ true is if it is uplifted by aliens. Look at the hanar from Mass Effect these jellyfish only reached space because the Proteans Uplifted them.

I think would make more sense discuss if a civ could go to space in a high mass world. (Elcor... So what I like Mass Effect?)

You're right, but i think that with regard to the processing with the fire believe that in case the planet has, under the water, of the cracks which allow the outside of the core output of lava this civilization can work metals, at least in depth.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Tue May 15, 2012 5:36 pm

Doggit wrote:
Theusfilipe wrote:
Underwater civilizations are doomed. I am new but I can see the conclusion people before me reached. As much as I like the idea you can't and you will not make a Underwater Civ all the way to space. The only thing that can make a underwater civ true is if it is uplifted by aliens. Look at the hanar from Mass Effect these jellyfish only reached space because the Proteans Uplifted them.

I think would make more sense discuss if a civ could go to space in a high mass world. (Elcor... So what I like Mass Effect?)

You're right, but i think that with regard to the processing with the fire believe that in case the planet has, under the water, of the cracks which allow the outside of the core output of lava this civilization can work metals, at least in depth.

It's already been discussed that geothermal heat could not be used for metalworking. Water is more conductive to heat than air, so if you are close enough to work metals then you are already dead.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Tue May 15, 2012 5:49 pm

you only get he excuse of the fire to make it impossible, that's all, it pisses me of, the game will be realistic that's nice but there must be another way to develop a civilization without the need of fire.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Tue May 15, 2012 9:52 pm

Will it be able to form tribes in the water? your species could create stone tools with handles made from the stalks of underwater plants
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Tue May 15, 2012 10:13 pm

penumbra espinosa wrote:
you only get he excuse of the fire to make it impossible, that's all, it pisses me of, the game will be realistic that's nice but there must be another way to develop a civilization without the need of fire.

You can get to farming, just the entire fire and metals branch of the tech tree is closed off, so you're stuck with primitive tools such as stones (or clamshells,) and very little building. If you have a look at the tech tree, fire is a prerequisite for at least 80% of the technologies on it.

Also, we're having trouble with underwater physics. Basically, if you can manipulate complicated tools, you're not aerodynamic enough to swim, and the wandering range for mid and large range sea creatures is huge, several times that of a land creature. Civ's going to be complicated by the lack of opposable thumbs long before fire or metalworking comes up, and after that it's going to be the necessity of a nomadic lifestyle. After that it's going to be the belgiumming depth problem, as farming's only going to work up to the efficient penetrative depth of sunlight. Herding fish might work, but civilization in an ocean has literally no ground to stand on.

So yes, to summarize, we have at least three things other than fire blocking underwater civ, but fire's the first thing we usually bring up. Underwater civ is deader than the spider that I just killed with my shoe.

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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Wed May 16, 2012 5:12 pm

penumbra espinosa wrote:
you only get he excuse of the fire to make it impossible, that's all, it pisses me of, the game will be realistic that's nice but there must be another way to develop a civilization without the need of fire.
Sorry, but that's the cold, hard physics of it- you can't progress past the stone age if you're fully aquatic. Until someone provides really really good evidence otherwise, that's how it will be.

Compounding what the calligrapher said,
-herding fish is more impossible than herding cats. sure, whales can make them ball up for a while with bubbles, but fish will always have three dimensions to move in, and on top of that, they're just not very bright organisms. Their life consists of swimming around in search of food, spawning, and then dying.
-farming is also very difficult underwater because stands of autotrophs attract so many organisms to them. The ocean is really very empty, and any resting place with food is going to teem with things eating the food and eating each other.
-it's possible to imagine an organism that can swim long distances and manipulate objects freely, but building things underwater is extremely difficult- even though objects weigh less, they still have a ton of inertia, so moving them about is difficult, and to build, you'll need heavy objects because the forces of water are a lot stronger than the forces of air, kinetically.

It would be cool to have mermaids, but they're just not going to get very far.

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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Thu May 17, 2012 5:56 pm

[quote="~sciocont"]
penumbra espinosa wrote:
you only get he excuse of the fire to make it impossible, that's all, it pisses me of, the game will be realistic that's nice but there must be another way to develop a civilization without the need of fire.
Sorry, but that's the cold, hard physics of it- you can't progress past the stone age if you're fully aquatic. Until someone provides really really good evidence otherwise, that's how it will be.

Ok whoever said fully aquatic? Like I said....If your like a frog that can go underwaterfor a short tiime just vice versa for going on land fo a short time, then I deem it...Possible, yes very much possible. Don't think fully aquatic people....
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Thu May 17, 2012 6:01 pm

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
MeowMan1 wrote:
I do understand that, but could these aquatic species go up to land for a short time, make fire, make a casing of naturl resources to protect the fire, carry it into the ocean, and use the protected fire another source of heat and eventually use it for heating raw food, that is once they are sentient? because if the fire is protected enough not to go out, then couldn't they then have fire underwater? If they can breathe for a little while on land also?

Fire needs oxygen in a gaseous form. Sure, you can seal a glass bubble full of fire, but it will put itself out when it runs out of oxygen. Also, it would float.

Extinction time in sealed environment is under a minute per cubic foot of air. Physics says no.
Theres a thing called grasping....Why would I not think that they would hold it? how else would You get it down there in the first place? It's a big fire, so it WON'T run out very fast, then You get a bunch of the same thing, just smaller fires to help the feed to the big fire.
I mean, I'm very nieve sometimess, but not always. I think My plan is plausible not possible forget I ever said possible cuz I got know idea if it even is or not.
Thanks again guys!
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