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 Implementing Underwater Civilizations

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the froggy ninja
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:43 pm

Hi I'm new,
I agree that breeding animals is the way to go, I have two ideas for shaping metal this way. The first is a fungus that attracts and melds bits of mineral from the water around it in the shape that it has been placed in when in contact with a sample of said mineral. The way I would explain how it grew was the metal was a self-preservation instinct as their spores are in stasis until contact with water after the metal erodes so even if the rest of them went extinct after several decades they would emerge and repopulate. It could be discovered by a child drawing with it because it's bio-luminescence and ether that or another being shows it a shiny piece of metal that touches the drawing and boom the drawing forms a metal shell.

My second way would be a creature that eats sedimentary or porous rocks to get at the organics inside. It would have a second stomach that made a chemical that super heated when in contact with water that allowed them to melt their food in their mouth and add the non-organic to there hides. i think that if they lived in arctic waters and the player race was very heat resistant then they could use primitive rope to tie one down ad forge stuff over its mouth.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:09 am

the froggy ninja wrote:
Hi I'm new,
I agree that breeding animals is the way to go, I have two ideas for shaping metal this way. The first is a fungus that attracts and melds bits of mineral from the water around it in the shape that it has been placed in when in contact with a sample of said mineral. The way I would explain how it grew was the metal was a self-preservation instinct as their spores are in stasis until contact with water after the metal erodes so even if the rest of them went extinct after several decades they would emerge and repopulate. It could be discovered by a child drawing with it because it's bio-luminescence and ether that or another being shows it a shiny piece of metal that touches the drawing and boom the drawing forms a metal shell.
That would sadly, propably be to hard to implent in a game...:|
the froggy ninja wrote:
My second way would be a creature that eats sedimentary or porous rocks to get at the organics inside. It would have a second stomach that made a chemical that super heated when in contact with water that allowed them to melt their food in their mouth and add the non-organic to there hides.
The temparutes needed to melt metal are so extreamly high that your creature would burn to death, (atlest an organic creature) and the warmth spreads much better in water than in air, so it would also cook up all the water around your creature, and therefore also cook and melt your ctreature(propably a very painfull death-experience for your creature)...
the froggy ninja wrote:
I think that if they lived in arctic waters and the player race was very heat resistant then they could use primitive rope to tie one down ad forge stuff over its mouth.
That wouldn't help against the extreme heats that're required for metal working...
Daniferrito wrote:
There's been 14 pages on this thread trying to find ways to do metalurgy underwater, or finding another way of developing all the things we need metals for. And this has not been the only thread about the subject.There has been more. The "closest" one was a kind of super selective breeding to turn some other underwater animals into tools. But that would take too much time to turn a profit (the star would die out before that)
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:05 am

Quote :
The temperatures* needed to melt metal are so extremely* high that your creature would burn to death, (at least* an organic creature) and the warmth spreads much better in water than in air, so it would also cook up all the water around your creature, and therefore also cook and melt your creature*(probably* a very painful* death-experience for your creature)

Well the Pompeii worm has a unique heat resisting coating made of bacteria. This allows temperatures of up to 80 C. Now I know this doesn't sound useful at the melting temps. of metal. But I did the math for a creature roughly fifteen times bigger. (The worm is normally 4 inches, so that's about five feet.) If the coating is proportional, it could withstand about 1200 C, 115 C above the melting point of copper and other semi-soft metals. The only thing needed to sustain the coating is high input of water and sugar fed to the bacteria as a sugary mucus. Now the creature would die under prolonged exposure, but it just has to be there long enough to bend the metal, which does not even have to be at full melting temperature to be shape-able, or cast it.

As to the water turning to steam if it was at sea level it would, but deeper under water the pressure would hold it together.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:46 am

the froggy ninja wrote:
Quote :
The temperatures* needed to melt metal are so extremely* high that your creature would burn to death, (at least* an organic creature) and the warmth spreads much better in water than in air, so it would also cook up all the water around your creature, and therefore also cook and melt your creature*(probably* a very painful* death-experience for your creature)

Well the Pompeii worm has a unique heat resisting coating made of bacteria. This allows temperatures of up to 80 C. Now I know this doesn't sound useful at the melting temps. of metal. But I did the math for a creature roughly fifteen times bigger. (The worm is normally 4 inches, so that's about five feet.) If the coating is proportional, it could withstand about 1200 C, 115 C above the melting point of copper and other semi-soft metals. The only thing needed to sustain the coating is high input of water and sugar fed to the bacteria as a sugary mucus. Now the creature would die under prolonged exposure, but it just has to be there long enough to bend the metal, which does not even have to be at full melting temperature to be shape-able, or cast it.
Just one note;  I don't think that the bacteria'll be able to withstand more heat just because there's a thicker layer of it on the creature, my assumption is that each one of these bacterias propably only can withstand a certain amount of heat (80C), and that maximum amount of heat they can withstand won't increase just beacuse there's more of them in the same place (same(almost) goes if you meant that the bacterias were bigger).
the froggy ninja wrote:
As to the water turning to steam if it was at sea level it would, but deeper under water the pressure would hold it together.
It would still be boiling hot if your creature gets to near.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:46 am

Alternatively a rock eater beast could melt the rocks outside its body by use of super-heated plasma made in the second stomach. This would make all the difference because the heat would travel in a different way. If you drop an ink drop directly into water, it will start to spread from the contact point like octopus ink.
 

  But if you put ink in a water gun and shot it, there would only be a trail behind until it hit something. This kind of represents both cause it had som momentum before hitting the water so it did a hybrid of both. So if you could train a rock eater beast for certain temperatures and when to fire than you could have a swimming forge. I think it could be trained either by training it with food and hoping it comes back for more or tethering it with primitive rope made from a heat resistant alien plant.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:23 am

the froggy ninja wrote:
Alternatively a rock eater beast could melt the rocks outside its body by use of super-heated plasma made in the second stomach. This would make all the difference because the heat would travel in a different way. If you drop an ink drop directly into water, it will start to spread from the contact point like octopus ink.
 

  But if you put ink in a water gun and shot it, there would only be a trail behind until it hit something. This kind of represents both cause it had som momentum before hitting the water so it did a hybrid of both. So if you could train a rock eater beast for certain temperatures and when to fire than you could have a swimming forge. I think it could be trained either by training it with food and hoping it comes back for more or tethering it with primitive rope made from a heat resistant alien plant.
The creature wouldn't be able to survive with such heat in his mouth.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:04 pm

Quote :
The creature wouldn't be able to survive with such heat in his mouth.
  What if the rock eater used glands on his face to make it in front of him then use an advanced respiratory system to shoot it forward. If it were outside his body then his hide made of rock and metal he ingests should protect him long enough.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:28 pm

Or more realistically, what if it evolved from the kind of extremophile bacteria you find in volcanoes?
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:50 pm

That makes sense, however, the bacteria would then have evolved for heat and (most likely)wouldn't survive anywhere else.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:00 pm

Hmmm... Then what if your species evolved to make their technologies from crystals they grew instead of metals? You could grow yourself the components for the ships and things, perhaps?
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:15 pm

Interesting. Crystalline tech I see? It would require VERY precise measurements, that a species without access to metal may or may not be able to comprehend.

Of course I'm no expert on the subject of crystals.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:19 pm

I mean, just grow the pieces, and I don't think metal has anything to do with you're measuring skills. .3. You could still develop maths and things, like exploration days england, but no metal bits. Heck, you could just sharpen wood for knives and other carving things. I mean, some south american natives can make machete's out of wood that are as sharp as any metal implement. I've seen it myself. .3.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:01 pm

if this has already been discussed just ignore it...

i don't know if anybody already had this idea, i just got to this topic actually, and i'm too lazy to read everything, but what about underwater volcanoes as a heat source, for example...

The creature could use something that doesn't melt in the magma, or the heat, to make the form of something...

i'm saying this, because i made a little resarch and found this http://www.iceagenow.com/Underwater_volcanoes_heat_the_seas.htm, it's says that the magma has a temperature of 2200 fahrenheit, or 1204 celcius, i think... So maybe, we could use this idea...


Aiosian idea about crystals could be implemented in this,i know that diamond melt at 3500c, or some igneus rocks, that melts at 2000 or maybe less... if we find something that doens't melt that easy, that it is easy to modify it's shape without melting and that is easy to find(lots of easy here) i think it could work...

or maybe, a rare material here, could be common in that planet, but than, this would be a matter of lucky, and the player wouldn't be abble to make this every time...


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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:07 pm

Quote :
That makes sense, however, the bacteria would then have evolved for heat and (most likely)wouldn't survive anywhere else.
  Yes, but with that plasma core in their body they could generate extreme heat of their own. 
Also it is posible that the player race evolved from such a bacteria and lives near a under water lava river (They exist!) or a volcanic hot spot which would provide the heat for metal smithing.
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:26 am

You still on about this. The answer is simple
Biomachines organisms that are used for different things, take the great tyranids for example if they find a water world and need metel they simply spit high corrosive bioplasma and shape it.Of course you people don't understand that so it layman's terms:find thing that live in land and water,Live in it

Inb4 a reputation of -10,00
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:38 am

Oh boy...

First of all, unless an organism doesn't need any form of sustenance other then sunlight, and can survive in a total vacuum with no heat, your tyranids aren't really possible without actual ships.

Just saying, I've done a little research and things that live in space don't work. Perhaps if it went dormant, like those frogs in New Zealand, then maybe just maybe you could get it to survive in space, and that is only if it requires no extra water, gasses or sustenance after it is sent into space. Even though this may be possible, it is also highly unlikely that it would work like your tyranids for a few reasons;

1. How did it get into space in the first place?

2. It would have no control of its direction, as it would be completely dormant.

3. I've seen the Tyranids, and they need a lot of food, as they are constantly eating, if said dormant creature was used as some sort of transport, if the creatures on the inside were not capable of the same dormancy, they would not survive the journey.

4. Even if it manages to get passed the last three problems, it still won't land gracefully, and most likely would die on impact into a planet, along with anything it is carrying.

I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but those critters just don't work outside of a world with an extra helping of fiction and fudged numbers. I know, because I once tried to make a species like that believable on the Speculative Evolution forums, of which I have my main projects in my signature. Everyone there picked it to pieces, they just don't work. Sorry, man. :/
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:09 am

Aiosian_Doctor_Xenox has already given some reasons why your idea might be difficult to implement, although I'd just like to add a few of my own. Please note I'm trying not to be too harsh on you, but there are some definite flaws in your suggestion and I'd like to correct them.

Jimexmore wrote:
You still on about this (I have to agree with you here - this thread's gone on for far longer than it needed to.). The answer is simple
Biomachines organisms that are used for different things, take the great tyranids for example if they find a water world (This implies that they have already evolved somewhere else beforehand, effectively defeating the point of discussing whether a creature can become civilised on a water planet.) and need metel they simply spit high corrosive bioplasma (High corrosive bioplasma? Bio would mean it would be created by organisms, and the plasma part indicates that it would be at a very high temperature, too high for any animal to survive with and therefore the very concept of bioplasma doesn't make sense.) and shape it.Of course you people don't understand (I seem to have understood this pretty well) that so it layman's terms:find thing that live in land and water,Live in it (This bears no relation to the rest of what you've posted. You find something that lives on land and in water, i.e. an amphibian, and live in it. While this is actually a good idea for something like parasites - maybe we'll need to consider those later - it would not allow a creature to become civilised underwater.)

Inb4 a reputation of -10,00 (I for one didn't rate you down, because I don't want to be harsh. I would just like you to think about what you post before you do, and check it's all in compliance with everything else about Thrive. We're trying to make a realistic game here, so a creature that creates a substance too hot for it to survive would certainly not be possible.)

Just to add my two cents to this discussion, I doubt they'll ever be a way to implement underwater civilisations without uplifting or returning to the sea after becoming civilised on land. However, I am excited about this concept - there will be underwater civilisations, you'll just have to evolve on land or be given the necessary technology first.

Or we could always release the game without them and wait for someone to mod it.

EDIT: I just had a very odd thought. Imagine if somewhere there is a civilisation which has developed entirely underwater, and their technology has progressed to such a degree that there is now a video game development team there discussing amongst themselves whether it's remotely possible for a civilisation to emerge on land. Just a random thought.

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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:32 pm

That's it, this nonsense has gone far enough. I'm reinstating the ban policy on this thread. if any of you have questions, read this thread to find how they've been refuted twelve times, or check out this document for a detailed review of the impossibility of underwater civs in Thrive.

ANYONE WHO POSTS AN IDEA ON THIS THREAD WHICH HAS ALREADY BEEN COVERED HERE OR IN THAT DOCUMENT WILL BE BANNED FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.

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PostSubject: I'm risking being banned on my first post but...   Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:23 am

Returning to the idea of heat vents (volcanic or otherwise).

To me the fact that life forms would expire in the heat around the vents could actually be the STARTING point for a civilisation using them to progress technologically.

Hear me out...

So a sentient species notices that these heat vents are dangerous and initially avoids them. They then notice that other lifeforms are safer to eat when they have expired a certain distance from the vents (hot enough to cook them, cool enough for them to be taken at a distance with some kind of tool), discovering cooking. The rest of the progression would start with ways of protecting from the heat, ceramics (initially fired directly over the vents?) could be an early discovery. Once they have the technology to protect themselves from the heat it's only a few steps from there to controlling the heat, bringing it down (to cook stuff) and up (to experiment, having discovered the firing of ceramics an experimenter would naturally be asking the question "If heat changes the state of this thing, what happens if I apply more heat?") from containing the heat in some kind of vessel and bringing the internal temperature up the discovery of glass and metals should be an easy next step. Essentially this deals with both problems mentioned in this thread concerning different types of heat vents (IIRC standard heat vents too cool to smelt metal, too hot to survive). This would be a means of bringing them from the tribal level (where I imagine they'd have tools of coral, bone, tooth and flint as the likelihood of something tree-like underwater is lower) to the beginnings of technology. Arguably such a civilisation may even be more advanced in ceramics than we were when they discover metallurgy.

Feel free to pick holes in this but I think this is quite a good solution to the problems discussed in this thread without having to resort to biological smelt monsters and the like.

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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:27 pm

SpiroExDeus wrote:
Valid points
None of this actually addresses the smelting of metals, which is the actual problem, not from a danger to the organism standpoint, but from a basic chemistry standpoint.
You are off with a warning. Do not reply to this.

If any of you have questions, read this thread to find how they've been refuted twelve times, or check out this document for a detailed review of the impossibility of underwater civs in Thrive.

ANYONE WHO POSTS AN IDEA ON THIS THREAD WHICH HAS ALREADY BEEN COVERED HERE OR IN THAT DOCUMENT WILL BE BANNED FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.

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PostSubject: Underwater, and no, not repeat.   Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:25 am

So, a lot of people have been wanting to play as a underwater species, with advanced civilization. The devs claim this would be impossible, but, with the help of wiki...
 
  Advanced organisms that evolve in the sea would not be able to go to space, or get metal... right?
Indeed, NOT. You see, it is possible to have fire underwater, and make metals... although you would have to be very far down... you could use the planet's own heat to melt such things, and pressurize it with ease. As for the space age, replace it with the "Dark" age, where your species delves deeper into the ocean, where you can find many undiscovered species... but no planets.
Perhaps you could only do this if your species was the size of a microbe? Perhaps...
    I do support open-mindedness and constructive criticism, but no flame please.
Discuss below...
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:25 pm

Please post ideas on the main underwater civ. thread instead of making a separate thread.

EDIT: Also, why did you originally post this in the Archive subforum? That is for out of date threads.

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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:30 pm

its been a long time since i replied in this belgiumned thread. but i want to beat the dead horse, you're focusing much in the "i cant make fire or smelt metals underwater", well, do it outside of it. how?

i dont know if you know about Sagan IV, that little forum project about an alien planet, created by an artist known as Hydromancerx. the artist created a race for SPORE (as some sort of roleplay or something) called the Nauceans, these creatures evolved in an amphibian environment, the first naucean tribe was the ocean tribe. now, i want to note that the ocean tribe used fire, how?, well the drawings and the writings fron Hydromancerx say that they build underwater structures (connected to an air intake on the surface). now, these are their houses. but in order to make fire they build floating structures. enough waterproof for allowing campfire inside of them.

this could be, and in my opinion, it could be the solution for underwater civilizations. you could start that simple, smelting metals on the surface, it doesnt need to be on land even. once you get to create waterproof materials, you could build entire underwater cities without having to smelt things on the surface. since you could create pressurized environments. the only problem would be the smoke created by the industry, but that could be fixed using pipes that would release it above the surface.

if someone wants to see the images, Hydromancerx leaved a complete archive of its race in this thread on the Sagan IV Forums. http://sagan4.com/forum/index.php?topic=3504.45
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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:39 pm

One of the most fundamental points of this thread is that we are not denying acquiring fire and metal on land.

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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:14 pm

NickTheNick wrote:
One of the most fundamental points of this thread is that we are not denying acquiring fire and metal on land.
im not talking about getting fire and metal on land, im talking about extracting the metal from the ocean floor, and smelting it in a floating structure. it should allow players who want to be a full acuatic race get to a more advanced civilization. the only requirement would be that the materials they need were both waterproof and fireproof, so they could put these floating structures above the surface.

i take the naucean example again, the archives say that the materials for both their underwater buildings and their buoyant structures were made from materials that they got in their habitat. the only issue i would see would be in getting an analogue to wood, i dont know if mineral coal can exist underwater or if dried acuatic vegetation could serve as the fuel.

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PostSubject: Re: Implementing Underwater Civilizations   Today at 6:25 am

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Implementing Underwater Civilizations
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