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 Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony

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Thrivial Pursuit
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PostSubject: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:16 am

I apologize for not being "online" for a while, but I was busy. Now I present a little formula for who wins a star when one empire takes over the other. Feel free to improve upon it.

W=(eD)/f-s

"W" is the Winner of the star/planet.

"e" is the size of the empire you are attacking.

"D" is how strong their defensive line is, their air-land-sea-space defense so to speak.

"f" is the Effectiveness of the defensive strategy on your ship.

"s" is the defense of your ship; how much stuff it can withstand.

This also might work for taking over tribes and cities in the previous stages.
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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:24 pm

Thrivial Pursuit wrote:
I apologize for not being "online" for a while, but I was busy. Now I present a little formula for who wins a star when one empire takes over the other. Feel free to improve upon it.

W=(eD)/f-s

"W" is the Winner of the star/planet.

"e" is the size of the empire you are attacking.

"D" is how strong their defensive line is, their air-land-sea-space defense so to speak.

"f" is the Effectiveness of the defensive strategy on your ship.

"s" is the defense of your ship; how much stuff it can withstand.

This also might work for taking over tribes and cities in the previous stages.
That's pretty good. Of course, you need to specify that W>1, the defense wins, whereas w<1 means the attacker wins. Also, why is it f-s instead of f+s or, more accurately f*s, because the attacker and the attacked are both measured in the same way?
A better equation might be:

W=(n1D1)/(n2D2)

n is nation, d is the force or effectiveness of the attack/defense strategy of that nation.

If w>1, defender wins. If w<1, attacker wins.

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Commander Keen
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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:51 pm

Well, the OP's equation seems to be oriented on Spore-like space stage. Also note that more factors will need to be present, and for the ease of counting we should do it by counting offensive score and defensive score of all the troops.

That will still be a very rough equation, though, usable mostly for AI nations duking it out. Player is most likely to use tactics and similar stuff, so player vs AI battles will need to be way more complicated (otherwise their bomber squadrons could get shotdown by a horde of pikemen),
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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:28 pm

Commander Keen wrote:
Well, the OP's equation seems to be oriented on Spore-like space stage. Also note that more factors will need to be present, and for the ease of counting we should do it by counting offensive score and defensive score of all the troops.

That will still be a very rough equation, though, usable mostly for AI nations duking it out. Player is most likely to use tactics and similar stuff, so player vs AI battles will need to be way more complicated (otherwise their bomber squadrons could get shotdown by a horde of pikemen),
I assumed it would be a background AI task.

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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:17 am

~sciocont wrote:
I assumed it would be a background AI task.

It will, unless the player wants to lead the battle himself. That's why we have to use more complicated system for battles like these.
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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:22 pm

Commander Keen wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
I assumed it would be a background AI task.

It will, unless the player wants to lead the battle himself. That's why we have to use more complicated system for battles like these.
Of course, I was referring to a distant battle between two NPCs.

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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:23 pm

Quote :
That will still be a very rough equation, though, usable mostly for AI nations duking it out. Player is most likely to use tactics and similar stuff, so player vs AI battles will need to be way more complicated (otherwise their bomber squadrons could get shotdown by a horde of pikemen),

You could go around the pikemen killing bomber problem by giving all units a attack and defence type. Attack types : Air - Air, Surface - Air and so on. And because pikemen is surface and only attacks surface it produces 0 damage to bombers.


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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:24 pm

BastianKraft wrote:
Quote :
That will still be a very rough equation, though, usable mostly for AI nations duking it out. Player is most likely to use tactics and similar stuff, so player vs AI battles will need to be way more complicated (otherwise their bomber squadrons could get shotdown by a horde of pikemen),

You could go around the pikemen killing bomber problem by giving all units a attack and defence type. Attack types : Air - Air, Surface - Air and so on. And because pikemen is surface and only attacks surface it produces 0 damage to bombers.

Yes, but they then could do damage to armored tanks as well, which does not make sense either.



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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:02 am

~sciocont wrote:
BastianKraft wrote:
You could go around the pikemen killing bomber problem by giving all units a attack and defence type. Attack types : Air - Air, Surface - Air and so on. And because pikemen is surface and only attacks surface it produces 0 damage to bombers.

Yes, but they then could do damage to armored tanks as well, which does not make sense either.

Pikemen would be able to do some damage if they would have a backup weapon and know where the tanks has an entrance. In the Vietnam War, US tanks had considerable losses to Vietnamese soldiers equipped only with knives. They would simply sneak behind the tanks, enter one through the commander's hatch and use the moment of surprise to kill the whole crew (4 people).

I was toying with a "range" variable. It would be also useful for artillery and other instances when the enemy can't strike back.


Last edited by Commander Keen on Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:29 pm

Thrivial Pursuit wrote:

W=(eD)/f-s

"W" is the Winner of the star/planet.

"e" is the size of the empire you are attacking.

"D" is how strong their defensive line is, their air-land-sea-space defense so to speak.

"f" is the Effectiveness of the defensive strategy on your ship.

"s" is the defense of your ship; how much stuff it can withstand.

This also might work for taking over tribes and cities in the previous stages.

I think it's to simple for realistic and challenging war.
and the size it's less important.
I think you can add "T" Technology (t=Technology)
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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:22 pm

Good work. It's wonderful to watch this stuff come together while the engine is still being constructed.

I think that the simplest thing to do is the SA/AA/SS/AS quadrangle of attacks, overlay them with simple unit and damage types (Armour, flesh, wood, etc.) and let the AI duke it out from there.

If we want to deal with the Society stages, we might want to throw in a few distinctions like cavalry, but on the whole we don't need to make this at all complicated when the player won't see it.

Speaking of which, this should probably be turned off whenever the player gets too close, not just when they player gets involved.
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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:25 am

Wait why the player can't commend his forces
i mean some kind of RTS minigame
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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:55 am

ido66667 wrote:
Wait why the player can't commend his forces
i mean some kind of RTS minigame
The player can command his forces, this is about two NPC forces against each other.

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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:35 am

ido66667 wrote:
Wait why the player can't commend his forces
i mean some kind of RTS minigame
~sciocont wrote:
Of course, I was referring to a distant battle between two NPCs.

You will be able to command your own troops.

If you're talking about controlling someone else's, probably not. If the player could do that, they could deliberately lose to weaken an enemy. However, if you become close enough to an ally, then maybe. There could be an alliance close enough that command of the troops merges and the two essentially become one nation.
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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:44 am

Hmm, Pikemen vs Tanks... I would rush and stuff the cannon with spears and that would probably backfire by adding alot of spear splitters along with the high explosive shot....

enough of my daydreaming.

To solve the problem you could just make technolgy extra important and having 5 times as much makes you 25 times stronger or something. You just have to make sure 1 tank is 5000 times as powerful as a Pikeman. 5000 could probably rush a tank anyways... at least as long as it cant drive away...So hord of pikemen killing tanks isnt that problematic.

More problematic is that to kill a modern tank you would at least need as many WWII tanks as the 1 modern tank has ammo

And yes, that formula should include a technolgy part.
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ido66667
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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:29 pm

better formula:

W=(eDt)/f-s

T=their technology

BtW we can do
defence\attack strategy type

like
attack type 1 is more aggressive than attack type 2
but attack type 2 is more smart than type 1
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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:41 pm

Quote :
better formula:

W=(eDt)/f-s

You are applying the technology to only one side, and as Scio said, the OP's equation is a bit weird. The proper version would be W=(n1D1t1)/(n2D2t2). The technology level can be calculated into the D though, getting us back to the W=(n1D1)/(n2D2).

Quote :
BtW we can do
defence\attack strategy type

like
attack type 1 is more aggressive than attack type 2
but attack type 2 is more smart than type 1

Seems quite a bit artificial to me. I think this doesn't need to be in the simplistic AI vs AI equation, and automatic player vs AI battles will be more complex than a single equation.

***

I'm thinking about a round system where the sides will exchange blows until one side is demoralized enough to flee or is totally destroyed. The system counts with strength of boths sides, range of units, speed, terrain roughness, different types of battles (holding the line, ambushes, etc.) and so on.

Just keep posting in this thread, please. Talk about the AI versus AI system, or just bump the thread once in a while. I fear I will forget to post it if I won't see the thread...
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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:36 am

Commander Keen wrote:
Quote :
better formula:

W=(eDt)/f-s

You are applying the technology to only one side, and as Scio said, the OP's equation is a bit weird. The proper version would be W=(n1D1t1)/(n2D2t2). The technology level can be calculated into the D though, getting us back to the W=(n1D1)/(n2D2).

Quote :
BtW we can do
defence\attack strategy type

like
attack type 1 is more aggressive than attack type 2
but attack type 2 is more smart than type 1

Seems quite a bit artificial to me. I think this doesn't need to be in the simplistic AI vs AI equation, and automatic player vs AI battles will be more complex than a single equation.

***

I'm thinking about a round system where the sides will exchange blows until one side is demoralized enough to flee or is totally destroyed. The system counts with strength of boths sides, range of units, speed, terrain roughness, different types of battles (holding the line, ambushes, etc.) and so on.

Just keep posting in this thread, please. Talk about the AI versus AI system, or just bump the thread once in a while. I fear I will forget to post it if I won't see the thread...





First you're Right, we need more then One Equation for a Normal Battles

Secondly my Equation only for AI Vs. AI not For PVAI (Player Vs. Artificial intelligence)

P.S

BTW There is a lot more stuff you need to add to you're Version
but It's Okay.
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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:52 pm

I knew I would forget to post it.. Well, I don't have the time to do it now anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:20 pm

the Technology effects attack too
So it can stand for Itself

but we still need more than this basic formula.
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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:43 pm

I like the round-based idea, but I just realized that we can essentially fix this in a simple way.

Assuming his is an AI vs AI battle that you don't see:

Strength (how we detemine this is up for debate) of one is added to the strength of the other. Find percent of total that it makes up. That percent is the chance that it has of winning.

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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:50 am

~sciocont wrote:
I like the round-based idea, but I just realized that we can essentially fix this in a simple way.

Assuming his is an AI vs AI battle that you don't see:

Strength (how we detemine this is up for debate) of one is added to the strength of the other. Find percent of total that it makes up. That percent is the chance that it has of winning.


It's too simple what with strategy, technology, defense and attack.
you need all this stuff to say what is Strength
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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:24 am

~sciocont wrote:
Assuming his is an AI vs AI battle that you don't see:

Strength (how we detemine this is up for debate) of one is added to the strength of the other. Find percent of total that it makes up. That percent is the chance that it has of winning.

This should work. As for the round-based battles, those are meant for player vs AI (without player's direct control). I am putting this together now, but it will need some more time.
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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:45 pm

~sciocont wrote:
I like the round-based idea, but I just realized that we can essentially fix this in a simple way.

Assuming his is an AI vs AI battle that you don't see:

Strength (how we detemine this is up for debate) of one is added to the strength of the other. Find percent of total that it makes up. That percent is the chance that it has of winning.

I'm not sure about this. If there is one little alien dude up against nine others, if that makes a strength of one vs 9 strength, there's a one in ten chance that that single one will just completely pwn them! This is dependant on how strength is defined, but it better account for this...
Or not, if that one little alien is one of mine in AI mode. I didn't think of that...
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PostSubject: Re: Who wins the Star- Takeover of a colony   Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Commander Keen wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
Assuming his is an AI vs AI battle that you don't see:

Strength (how we detemine this is up for debate) of one is added to the strength of the other. Find percent of total that it makes up. That percent is the chance that it has of winning.

This should work. As for the round-based battles, those are meant for player vs AI (without player's direct control). I am putting this together now, but it will need some more time.
I await with baited breath.

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