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 Organ Design

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Theusfilipe
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Sun May 27, 2012 1:16 pm

Air Sacs are already covered. Look the second post here to see the aproved ideas of organs.
The Crystalizer didn't pass? Calli could you see if this organ is possible?
What about Gular Pouch and Spore Holder? Could the gular pouch be considered a "food" sac?


Nervous Cords: Thanks James Cameron for that one. The Na'vi Nervous cord used to interact with other creatures (from diferent or the same species) maybe if evolved can be made in all the skin like the Asari or Protean. Proteans used this to hunt (they could sense other creature DNA and memories when he touched someone) Asari can "share" their minds connecting their nervous system with other or same species only with their hands. They have super-evolved synapses that can adapt. I think it would make the creature more susceptible to damage, they would feel more pain. Or maybe these skin synapses could ignore the pain after some generations.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Sun May 27, 2012 4:28 pm

Theusfilipe wrote:
Air Sacs are already covered. Look the second post here to see the aproved ideas of organs.
Nervous Cords: Thanks James Cameron for that one. The Na'vi Nervous cord used to interact with other creatures (from diferent or the same species) maybe if evolved can be made in all the skin like the Asari or Protean. Proteans used this to hunt (they could sense other creature DNA and memories when he touched someone) Asari can "share" their minds connecting their nervous system with other or same species only with their hands. They have super-evolved synapses that can adapt. I think it would make the creature more susceptible to damage, they would feel more pain. Or maybe these skin synapses could ignore the pain after some generations.

I don't think direct neural connection with other species is at all realistic. Even with two species on the same planet they would have different neural architechture which would make a kind of universal brain USB impossible.

Also, this has the same problems as telepathy, in that it's so incredibly useful that if it were possible a creature on Earth would have already evolved it. Our polanet might just be the only non-telepathic one, bur for the same reasons we assume water is needed for life we can assume that our planet is pretty average.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Sun May 27, 2012 5:29 pm

PTFace wrote:
I think an interesting way to go from cellular to multicellular would be am organelle which allowed you to conjugate with other cells and eventually just group together with cells of your species.
That is what we plan to do. You might want to check up on the cellular current concept. So great idea, we've already implemented it.

MeowMan1 wrote:
OOh very interesting, I like the air sac idea the most though.
Heat sensors are ofcourse already here on Earth, some snake I think see with heat sensors, so ofcourse we definitely SHOULD include that. We'll have to see whether air sacs are physically possible though, although I don't see how they wouldn't be.
Don't lungs count as (specialised) air sacks?
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Sun May 27, 2012 8:40 pm

About "different neural architechture" I disagree. They all evolved from a single organism didn't they? I mean a dog, a fish and a human react almost the same to pain (sure dogs more close to humans) . The nervous system is like any of the others, actualy the only system more close to "universal". The brain may not be that evolved but they react almost the same.
Why is telepathy comming into play? I mean it is pretty close but not that much.

That is not about being usefull. If evolution were based on usefullness larmack would be right. Evolution is random. Slow but random. There are infinite chances of anything happen. Why a planet can't evolve symbiote creatures that are so connected that, the ones that evolved a neural cord and a neural system closer to the partner, started to work better than older generations.

Sure, we have to stay in reality and I think this type of symbiosis is too complex to be added early in game. Or maybe it is an bad idea as bad as underwater civs.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Mon May 28, 2012 11:52 am

Theusfilipe wrote:
About "different neural architechture" I disagree. They all evolved from a single organism didn't they? I mean a dog, a fish and a human react almost the same to pain (sure dogs more close to humans) . The nervous system is like any of the others, actualy the only system more close to "universal". The brain may not be that evolved but they react almost the same.
Why is telepathy comming into play? I mean it is pretty close but not that much.

That is not about being usefull. If evolution were based on usefullness larmack would be right. Evolution is random. Slow but random. There are infinite chances of anything happen. Why a planet can't evolve symbiote creatures that are so connected that, the ones that evolved a neural cord and a neural system closer to the partner, started to work better than older generations.

Sure, we have to stay in reality and I think this type of symbiosis is too complex to be added early in game. Or maybe it is an bad idea as bad as underwater civs.

This occurring in nature is unlikely. The first major flaw is having exposed neurones - there is a reason we have skulls: to protect them, they can't grow back naturally. Even if they could, it still isn't ideal to have direct access to your main functioning brain available with only a bit of neural tissue for some sort of brain-eater to chomp through.

Another problem is that by the time the brain has developed enough to be able to be used in this sort of symbiosis, it is going to be developed to work alone - having two consciousnesses with access to each other's memories and senses will get seriously confusing for an otherwise solitary intelligence - "Which is my body? Both seem to be mine. Who am I? I remember before connecting brains being... Both. Which are my thoughts?". And so on - basically the creatures would begin to merge, and after disconnecting both would basically have multiple personalities. Not a great outcome. So this would have to have been compensated for at a stage before there is any reason for it to develop.

How to fasten together this neural tissue is also a problem, and would most likely require muscles to attach to these fragile neural cells to allow conscious control, probably not a good idea as it would damage it to use them very often. An alternative is developing some sort of external spine, also not great since the additional resources used don't bring a particularly great benefit, even if the mind-merge can be avoided.

If these problems can all be overcome, then it is possible. However, I am not exactly a biologist or a neurologist, so there may be other problems I don't know about or have overlooked. So, sorry, but this particular idea is not a very likely one to occur, even with manual control of your species's evolution, since without multiple species it can't really increase an organism's productivity. But at least it's a new one.

P.S. This is one of the several thing that makes Avatar fantasy, not sci-fi. I'm not being picky, there are true sci-fi stories out there, but this is not one of them. Neither are things like Star-Trek with its warp drive, or Star Wars with whatever interstellar travel that uses. Since when did the average film-maker in choosing genres what is possible with our current scientific understanding of the world and what isn't, anyway? (No offence to film-makers, but it isn't typically their area of expertise)
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Mon May 28, 2012 1:22 pm

About Your terms of sci-fi: number 1: Starwars IS scui-fi, no one can truly deny that.
Back to the topic: maybe a little bit of fantasy just to get some stuff over with and done is better than debating for several weeks "oh, it's not possible.'
Like let's make some more progress guys, seriously, I'm kinda ticked off here.
Sorry if I offended anyone, but we NEED to make some more progress, A LOT more.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Mon May 28, 2012 3:12 pm

I'm proud of you, Uteen.

As much as I hate James Cameron, the Avatar thing is worth discussing, but I don't think it's worth implementing. It's possible, in my view, that a neural network could evolve, if all organisms in it shared a common ancestor that developed a neural network. However, this would have such gigantic effects on gameplay and programming that I'd rather we don't include it.

@Uteen- lungs will be evolved air sacs, I'll study up on lung evolution to determine how best ti implement the evolution of lungs in the game. Interestingly, they did not evolve from gills, as one might think, but from a gut pouch, which was originally just a storage area for air when oxygen was scarce. To turn it into a lung, you simply need to give it an increasingly vascular lining, then start increasing its surface area. It should be relatively easy to implement.

@Theusfilipe- I'm going to keep going over this thread for things that I've missed. In the meantime, if you guys could submit organs with the template (if you could flag suggestions in orange, an option which should be found in the upper right hand corner of the reply posting window, that would be great)

Transparency is doable, to a point. Larger creatures are probably going to have to be opaque, since they need more support, and support systems tend to be naturally colored and opaque.

Bone plates in the skin are called osteoderms and will be an option in the skinning tab and in the skeletal tab, depending on the size that you want to make them.

Tentacles, tails, and musculature are all covered in the OE CC, feel free to reread it if you're confused.

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Mon May 28, 2012 3:38 pm

so, bending water, by avatar You mean is a no go?
ok, that's good.
Will anyparts that You can drag onto Your creature count as extra skeleton structure and give You more health, or protect You, again, like a triceratops?
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Mon May 28, 2012 3:42 pm

Hum... yeah Uteen it would take a lot of resources to make it doable. It is a evolution path so complicated and narrow... It is doable but if you make it your creature will get killed. Maybe infection or a little stronger push.
I think it is more doable with sandbox mode. You have to control all the planet to make this more easy.
Neural Cord is very difficult to mantain. You have to evolve many protections to it, don't get yourself killed between one generation to another and have a lot of patience. If this is possyble and implemented it will make the game a lot harder. And harder to code too.

Another thing that I think is impossible is genetic memory. The only work around in my mind is if the mother transfer the code of her brain into the baby. It is actualy a vague idea in my mind.


P.S.:I agree with Avatar and Star-Wars being fantasy. Sci-fy need to be based in proven scientific facts. Sorry but I much as I like the force, micoorganisms living in the blood stream can't do telekinissis (don't know how to write it ).

P.S.: Not that Avatar MeowMan.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Tue May 29, 2012 4:28 pm

Did You say and I quote :"Hum...yeah" to me, saying yes to my question or were You talking to Uteen?
Sorry did I just create a wierd moment, or am I good?
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Tue May 29, 2012 4:46 pm

As part of the circulatory system, I suggest arterial-only hearts and venous-only hearts. These two hearts would only deal with blood coming in from certain directions (arterial and venous blood, respectively). I believe this is what squids have.

On the topic of squids, chromatophores (which would allow the player to change the colour of the creature for camouflage) and ink sacs (which squirt ink into the surrounding water so the creature can flee).

By the way, would a smoke sac work? If a creature could squirt some kind of smoke out then
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Tue May 29, 2012 5:09 pm

Holomanga wrote:
As part of the circulatory system, I suggest arterial-only hearts and venous-only hearts. These two hearts would only deal with blood coming in from certain directions (arterial and venous blood, respectively). I believe this is what squids have.

On the topic of squids, chromatophores (which would allow the player to change the colour of the creature for camouflage) and ink sacs (which squirt ink into the surrounding water so the creature can flee).

By the way, would a smoke sac work? If a creature could squirt some kind of smoke out then
Sounds good, I'll try to format them soon.

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Tue May 29, 2012 5:18 pm

Thanks for bringing Chromatophores back up, there's info hiding around here somewhere.

The Crystalizer thing will be researched when I can find it. And I believe that what Uteeen is referring to is the Moh's Scale of Sci-Fi Hardness, or how much science is in your fiction. Prior to the middle of the 20th century, fantasy and science fiction were basically the same genere, and much of our older science fiction is essentially fantasy dressed up in more scientific terms. But this is the wrong thread for that discussion.

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Tue May 29, 2012 6:13 pm

That's cool Mysterious! Anybody want to answer this: Will we have tentacles at all, and if so on land, also will they be possible to use as arms and graspers?
Excuse me if this has already been discussed.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Tue May 29, 2012 7:17 pm

MeowMan1 wrote:
That's cool Mysterious! Anybody want to answer this: Will we have tentacles at all, and if so on land, also will they be possible to use as arms and graspers?
Excuse me if this has already been discussed.
Read the current concept.

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Tue May 29, 2012 8:21 pm

Thanks Calli.

Nice idea Holomanga. Speaking of hearts... Should the blood preassure be automatic or editable? What about beats per minute? With a "faster" heart "faster" the creature, like a hummingbird.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Tue May 29, 2012 9:28 pm

Theusfilipe wrote:
Thanks Calli.

Nice idea Holomanga. Speaking of hearts... Should the blood preassure be automatic or editable? What about beats per minute? With a "faster" heart "faster" the creature, like a hummingbird.
Automatic, probably.

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Wed May 30, 2012 8:00 pm

~sciocont wrote:
Theusfilipe wrote:
Thanks Calli.

Nice idea Holomanga. Speaking of hearts... Should the blood preassure be automatic or editable? What about beats per minute? With a "faster" heart "faster" the creature, like a hummingbird.
Automatic, probably.

Should scale automatically with animal size and metabolism.

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Wed May 30, 2012 8:36 pm

Speaking of the heart, have we discussed multiple organs such as hearts or stomachs?
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Wed May 30, 2012 8:49 pm

PTFace wrote:
Speaking of the heart, have we discussed multiple organs such as hearts or stomachs?

also pump-like organs?, take for example Snaiad, a project created by Nemo Ramjet, in this planet the dominant group of acuatic vertebrates are the Jetocetes and the Cardiocetids, this creatures use a modified extention of the digestive tract to propel in the water, in the Cardiocetes especially, there's special organs which act like a heart, but they use them to pump the seawater throught the propelling system.......

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Wed May 30, 2012 10:26 pm

penumbra espinosa wrote:
PTFace wrote:
Speaking of the heart, have we discussed multiple organs such as hearts or stomachs?

also pump-like organs?, take for example Snaiad, a project created by Nemo Ramjet, in this planet the dominant group of acuatic vertebrates are the Jetocetes and the Cardiocetids, this creatures use a modified extention of the digestive tract to propel in the water, in the Cardiocetes especially, there's special organs which act like a heart, but they use them to pump the seawater throught the propelling system.......

I'll cover hearts in detail later, pumps should be put under general.

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:35 pm

What about spitting acid? I don't mean weak acids like stomach acid or citrus, I mean major acids that could melt muscle and bone quickly. It would be a weapon, and it would get pretty complex, but acid spit is doable. All you really need is a system to keep it from corroding the inside of your creature. I think that a large amount of saliva in the storage area for acid would work, sort of like a saftey net. (BTW, I searched for things along those lines, there weren't any. Sorry if you already have something like this or a suggestion like this.)
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:13 pm

Grep42 wrote:
What about spitting acid? I don't mean weak acids like stomach acid or citrus, I mean major acids that could melt muscle and bone quickly. It would be a weapon, and it would get pretty complex, but acid spit is doable. All you really need is a system to keep it from corroding the inside of your creature. I think that a large amount of saliva in the storage area for acid would work, sort of like a saftey net. (BTW, I searched for things along those lines, there weren't any. Sorry if you already have something like this or a suggestion like this.)
It's definitely an option.

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:11 pm

MeowMan1 wrote:
What about tentacles, on land like a land octopus?
If you'd care to read the OE CC...

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:35 am

Strongly thermal organs? Going beyond heat transfers in the blood that actually produce heat using various reactions? Arctic dweller has movable heat pad for thawing food and melting ice without cooling it's own body. No clue if a strong heat removing is possible in biology (I honestly doubt it based on earth) but I'm aware of a few animals that produce heat beyond warm-bloodedness
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