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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:30 pm

The Uteen wrote:
*mystified silence*

If every organ stayed when not used we could end up with organisms growing many more appendix-like useless organs, and end up wasting food which could be used for useful growth... That's why we don't still have gills, or fur...

I suppose simulating everything happening in the galaxy isn't an option? Unlikely...

*mystified silence returns*
This is a problem. I think any organs that aren't completely necessary should be categorized as "peripherals", which can be evolved in or out of existence. An organism would have a certain percentage of energy intake devoted to peripherals, and it cannot exceed that intake. This essentially limits the amount and scale of peripheral organs to a certain realm depending on the energy intake of the organism.

Actually, this can really refine the OE: we need to decide proportions of energy devoted to respiration and growth for everything, and these proportions change depending on your organs.

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:17 pm

Ok, I've done some research, here's the energy breakdown for animals.

Let E be the total energy content of the food the organism consumes.

Most of the energy in E is not used because of inefficient digestion, but for thrive, animals should be able to get anywhere from 25% to 75% efficiency in this area. The remaining percentage, U, could then be from 75% to 25%. Anywhere from 50% to 99% of the energy in U is used in homeostasis, more for endotherms ( 99% to 95% for mammals, birds) less for ectotherms (fish use about 90%, insects use about 60%). The remaining energy, G is available for growth.

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:37 am

So, specifically, how do we decide what the breakup of energy is? Homeostasis "U" could be determined by environmental conditions - adaptations (Where there is a theoretical cold effect of '70' and an endotherm animal has a warm fur effect of '50' so the extra energy required to stay warm is '70' - '50' to get the theoretical energy amount '20' required for it to stay warm. If an animal is extremely well adapted, say has antifreeze coursing through its veins, the value is more along the lines of 60 or approaching 70) The same could potentially work for any environment, such as heavy salt concentration, the negatives of which are overcome as the creature adapts.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:35 pm

Kraeken wrote:
So, specifically, how do we decide what the breakup of energy is? Homeostasis "U" could be determined by environmental conditions - adaptations (Where there is a theoretical cold effect of '70' and an endotherm animal has a warm fur effect of '50' so the extra energy required to stay warm is '70' - '50' to get the theoretical energy amount '20' required for it to stay warm. If an animal is extremely well adapted, say has antifreeze coursing through its veins, the value is more along the lines of 60 or approaching 70) The same could potentially work for any environment, such as heavy salt concentration, the negatives of which are overcome as the creature adapts.
This is all determined by what sort of organs it has, which is why this thread exists.

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Tue May 01, 2012 3:13 pm

Kraeken wrote:
So, specifically, how do we decide what the breakup of energy is? Homeostasis "U" could be determined by environmental conditions - adaptations (Where there is a theoretical cold effect of '70' and an endotherm animal has a warm fur effect of '50' so the extra energy required to stay warm is '70' - '50' to get the theoretical energy amount '20' required for it to stay warm. If an animal is extremely well adapted, say has antifreeze coursing through its veins, the value is more along the lines of 60 or approaching 70) The same could potentially work for any environment, such as heavy salt concentration, the negatives of which are overcome as the creature adapts.

The energy requirement of a typical mammal is around 3.4^0.75 watts, where M is the mass of the animal in kilograms.

That means that 3.36M^0.75 watts (99%) to 1.7M^0.75 watts (50%) are used in homeostatis, leaving anywhere between 0.03M^0.75 watts to 1.7M^0.75 watts for growth.

The amount of watts for growth can then be split between the various organs, although we'll need values of energy consumption for the various types of organs.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Tue May 01, 2012 9:10 pm

Holomanga wrote:
Kraeken wrote:
So, specifically, how do we decide what the breakup of energy is? Homeostasis "U" could be determined by environmental conditions - adaptations (Where there is a theoretical cold effect of '70' and an endotherm animal has a warm fur effect of '50' so the extra energy required to stay warm is '70' - '50' to get the theoretical energy amount '20' required for it to stay warm. If an animal is extremely well adapted, say has antifreeze coursing through its veins, the value is more along the lines of 60 or approaching 70) The same could potentially work for any environment, such as heavy salt concentration, the negatives of which are overcome as the creature adapts.

The energy requirement of a typical mammal is around 3.4^0.75 watts, where M is the mass of the animal in kilograms.

That means that 3.36M^0.75 watts (99%) to 1.7M^0.75 watts (50%) are used in homeostatis, leaving anywhere between 0.03M^0.75 watts to 1.7M^0.75 watts for growth.

The amount of watts for growth can then be split between the various organs, although we'll need values of energy consumption for the various types of organs.
To simplify things, I suggest that, for now, all organs and parts of the creature grow at the same rate, unless it goes through a sort of metamorphosis (where the same thing would happen, but split up into different rates of growth for each stage). Nice maths. Where'd you find it? The point of this thread is to design different organs in order to change the energy requirements.

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Wed May 02, 2012 12:24 pm

~sciocont wrote:
Holomanga wrote:

The energy requirement of a typical mammal is around 3.4^0.75 watts, where M is the mass of the animal in kilograms.

That means that 3.36M^0.75 watts (99%) to 1.7M^0.75 watts (50%) are used in homeostatis, leaving anywhere between 0.03M^0.75 watts to 1.7M^0.75 watts for growth.

The amount of watts for growth can then be split between the various organs, although we'll need values of energy consumption for the various types of organs.
To simplify things, I suggest that, for now, all organs and parts of the creature grow at the same rate, unless it goes through a sort of metamorphosis (where the same thing would happen, but split up into different rates of growth for each stage). Nice maths. Where'd you find it? The point of this thread is to design different organs in order to change the energy requirements.

I found the equation in Xenology chapter 10.3.

I agree that for simplicity everything grows at the same rate, but further down the line we should make a distinction between the energy requirements of e.g. muscle and bone.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Wed May 02, 2012 4:55 pm

Holomanga wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
Holomanga wrote:

The energy requirement of a typical mammal is around 3.4^0.75 watts, where M is the mass of the animal in kilograms.

That means that 3.36M^0.75 watts (99%) to 1.7M^0.75 watts (50%) are used in homeostatis, leaving anywhere between 0.03M^0.75 watts to 1.7M^0.75 watts for growth.

The amount of watts for growth can then be split between the various organs, although we'll need values of energy consumption for the various types of organs.
To simplify things, I suggest that, for now, all organs and parts of the creature grow at the same rate, unless it goes through a sort of metamorphosis (where the same thing would happen, but split up into different rates of growth for each stage). Nice maths. Where'd you find it? The point of this thread is to design different organs in order to change the energy requirements.

I found the equation in Xenology chapter 10.3.

I agree that for simplicity everything grows at the same rate, but further down the line we should make a distinction between the energy requirements of e.g. muscle and bone.
Remember, to make that useful, it would have to have a big effect on the player's ability to survive. As much as I'd love to add it, it needs to have some effect on gameplay.

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Sat May 05, 2012 9:56 pm

~sciocont wrote:

Circulatory- control the flow of liquids in the organism
Respiratory- control the flow of gases in and out of the organism
Digestive- control the flow of nutrients through the organism
Reproductive- allow the organism to reproduce
Nervous- the brain, nerves, and sensory organs, which we can discuss more in depth here.


What about the other systems?

Lymphatic, Integumetary, Muscular, Immune, Endocrine, Urinary, Skeletal?
If we're going to discuss systems we might as well go all out haha
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Sat May 05, 2012 9:59 pm

For the immune system, I think there should be a set chance for any given creature that said creature will have an immunodeficency disease.

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Sat May 05, 2012 10:07 pm

sumwun18 wrote:
~sciocont wrote:

Circulatory- control the flow of liquids in the organism
Respiratory- control the flow of gases in and out of the organism
Digestive- control the flow of nutrients through the organism
Reproductive- allow the organism to reproduce
Nervous- the brain, nerves, and sensory organs, which we can discuss more in depth here.


What about the other systems?

Lymphatic22, Integumetary, Muscular, Immune, Endocrine, Urinary, Skeletal?
If we're going to discuss systems we might as well go all out haha
I thought you'd read the OE CC.
Skeletal and Muscular and Integumentary each have their own tabs.
Urinary gets lumped in with Digestive
Endocrine gets lumped in with nervous
Lymphatic would be part of circulatory, but we could lump it in with immune. I didn't refer to these mainly because there really aren't large organs associated with them- they can be handled in the behavior editor.

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Sun May 06, 2012 12:26 pm

What about reproductive? OOOOHHHHH! I know why everyone is avaoiding that, cuz well I would rather just make one form of the species instead of a guy and a girl. Like in spore, You don't gotta worry about that type of stuff, plus that'd be a little gross, if it looked anything like a human's, I mean I'm mature and all but please lets just leave the genitals out please?
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Mon May 07, 2012 11:59 am

MeowMan1 wrote:
What about reproductive? OOOOHHHHH! I know why everyone is avaoiding that, cuz well I would rather just make one form of the species instead of a guy and a girl. Like in spore, You don't gotta worry about that type of stuff, plus that'd be a little gross, if it looked anything like a human's, I mean I'm mature and all but please lets just leave the genitals out please?
Ehem.
~sciocont wrote:
A few categories of organs exist:

Circulatory- control the flow of liquids in the organism
Respiratory- control the flow of gases in and out of the organism
Digestive- control the flow of nutrients through the organism
Reproductive- allow the organism to reproduce
Nervous- the brain, nerves, and sensory organs, which we can discuss more in depth here.

We're going to be making up rules and attributes for these systems as we go, so get cracking.
It's in the OP.

And of course, there are many reproductive systems. Plants pollinate, or emit spores. Some organisms reproduce by splitting in two. We are going to be including reproductive systems. Leaving out one type of reproduction just because its our species's is rather unscientific. However, we have discussed this matter in the past, and I assume we came to a conclusion which was deemed conclusive... That I don't remember.

So... Anyone remember?
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Mon May 07, 2012 2:33 pm

The conclusion was- it's in the Belgiuming game. That was an awful, awful, awful thread. We will not discuss it any more. It's as dead as underwater civs, chemistry editors, and online gameplay.

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Mon May 07, 2012 6:10 pm

Gas Bags: The organism can accumulate certain gas to float around. Some fish have something similar that gives them the hability to go up and down in water. It could get more envolved to get full with other gas besides oxygen.
About reproductive I think if you want you could "hide" them in the options menu.


Last edited by Theusfilipe on Mon May 07, 2012 7:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Mon May 07, 2012 6:54 pm

~sciocont wrote:
The conclusion was- it's in the Belgiuming game. That was an awful, awful, awful thread. We will not discuss it any more. It's as dead as underwater civs, chemistry editors, and online gameplay.

QFT. Isn't this in the assigned reading?

Theus, I'm going to assume that part of that last sentence is missing...
Anyone know if we have gas-collecting organs? We should have swim bladders...

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Mon May 07, 2012 7:42 pm

We can always edit, that is the beauty of the forum. Bad syntax with moderade english make weird sentences.
Bioluminescence should go to what organ? On the skin? Or a "lamp" on a firefly
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Tue May 08, 2012 6:08 pm

Cool, we're finally talking about organs again.

From the last few posts:

Gas bladder- peripheral organ that contains gases-
if hooked up to the digestive system, contains methane
if hooked up to respiratory system, contains air/CO2
can be contracted/inflated by muscles (optional)
has some maximum size, can be internal or external

Bioluminescence
can be handled in skin tab, but also can be a separate external or internal organ

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Tue May 08, 2012 6:36 pm

~sciocont wrote:
Cool, we're finally talking about organs again.

From the last few posts:

Gas bladder- peripheral organ that contains gases-
if hooked up to the digestive system, contains methane
if hooked up to respiratory system, contains air/CO2
can be contracted/inflated by muscles (optional)
has some maximum size, can be internal or external

Bioluminescence
can be handled in skin tab, but also can be a separate external or internal organ
Such complex Ideas... I love this "Gas Bladder"! Is this instead of urine? or fluids? could Your species just absorb stuff and have no digestive or bladder system?
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Tue May 08, 2012 6:38 pm

Theusfilipe wrote:
We can always edit, that is the beauty of the forum. Bad syntax with moderade english make weird sentences.
Bioluminescence should go to what organ? On the skin? Or a "lamp" on a firefly
WHOA! We're doing that too! YES!!! I do think that is an amazing idea Filipe! 20th post btw!
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Wed May 09, 2012 5:25 pm

Hum... I have to think some more about organs. Silk production.
A small tube that would produce silk. The creature would use it to make traps or hang in places. I think it is too complex and should be added latter, it would require a lot of physics.

Gular pouch: Can hold water and food like that of the pelican or can produce various noises like a frog.

Bone Plate: A hard bone plate that can be added outside or inside of the body. It gives the creature more defence. The outside version could evolve into a shell.

Acid Production: A small tube that produces acid. If added inside the creature, like in the blood, when a enemy bites you they take damage. If added in a gular pouch it gives the crature the hability to spit acid. Maybe add some color pallets to the acid would make a lot of people glad.

Spore holder: It lets certain flora "grow" in some parts of you body. It would be like hair folicules, the only exception would be the fact that it would require a seed or a spore to touch the area and after some time the plant or fungus would start a symbiotic relationship with you creature.

Tongue: Eating, but if muscles are added around it and you prolong the tongue it can be shot like a cameleon.
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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Thu May 10, 2012 7:56 pm

MeowMan1 wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
Cool, we're finally talking about organs again.

From the last few posts:

Gas bladder- peripheral organ that contains gases-
if hooked up to the digestive system, contains methane
if hooked up to respiratory system, contains air/CO2
can be contracted/inflated by muscles (optional)
has some maximum size, can be internal or external

Bioluminescence
can be handled in skin tab, but also can be a separate external or internal organ
Such complex Ideas... I love this "Gas Bladder"! Is this instead of urine? or fluids? could Your species just absorb stuff and have no digestive or bladder system?

No.
Bladder=a membranous sac or organ serving as a receptacle for a fluid or gas. Not necessarily for pee. You could have a normal, urinary bladder (and probably should) as well as a methane bladder.
You have a digestive tract if you are not a) a single cell or b) a slime mold. Even Jellyfish have a 'digestive tract,' of sorts.

(Mind the double posts, Meow. Especially when the post you first quoted references bioluminescence anyway.)

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Thu May 10, 2012 10:11 pm

Theusfilipe wrote:
Hum... I have to think some more about organs. Silk production.
A small tube that would produce silk. The creature would use it to make traps or hang in places. I think it is too complex and should be added latter, it would require a lot of physics.

Gular pouch: Can hold water and food like that of the pelican or can produce various noises like a frog.

Bone Plate: A hard bone plate that can be added outside or inside of the body. It gives the creature more defence. The outside version could evolve into a shell.

Acid Production: A small tube that produces acid. If added inside the creature, like in the blood, when a enemy bites you they take damage. If added in a gular pouch it gives the crature the hability to spit acid. Maybe add some color pallets to the acid would make a lot of people glad.

Spore holder: It lets certain flora "grow" in some parts of you body. It would be like hair folicules, the only exception would be the fact that it would require a seed or a spore to touch the area and after some time the plant or fungus would start a symbiotic relationship with you creature.

Tongue: Eating, but if muscles are added around it and you prolong the tongue it can be shot like a cameleon.
Well done. I'll overhaul these this weekend.

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Fri May 11, 2012 8:20 pm

History Lesson.

We mentioned reproduction.
People got bent out of shape.
It got out of hand.
ADMIN crunched them like bugs.

/History Lesson.

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PostSubject: Re: Organ Design   Fri May 11, 2012 8:35 pm

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
History Lesson.

We mentioned reproduction.
People got bent out of shape.
It got out of hand.
ADMIN crunched them like bugs.

/History Lesson.
ok I'll shut up in that case....thankyou for accepting what I old You and ANYONE ELSE DON NOT ASK. I assume atleast that You did. Thanks.
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