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 Religion and Society

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Tenebrarum
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PostSubject: Religion and Society   Wed May 09, 2012 6:23 pm

First I would like to apologize for my paltry attendence as of late. As an apology, here's some junk on the deliciously controversial subject of religion.

Spoiler:
 

I'm running out of steam at the moment, but I promise to add discussion on reformation and modern theology before long.


Last edited by Tenebrarum on Wed May 09, 2012 9:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Theusfilipe
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PostSubject: Re: Religion and Society   Wed May 09, 2012 8:11 pm

Wow after that I think I should think about it too... I will edit some posts about religion on the society thread. I sense I only scratched a bit on that reply. Thanks Tenebrarum.
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PostSubject: Re: Religion and Society   Wed May 09, 2012 10:32 pm

This is all, to my knowledge, completely correct. Religion has a definite evolution, and righ now lots of religions are entering a new phase, where threats to the integrity of the religion or questions over the existence of gods/deities are driving people towards the ends of the spectrum- the more religiously zealous are becoming increasingly so, whereas the less inclined are ditching it altogether or simply leaving organized religion as a whole. This is also a point at which the relentless progress of science chips away at the perceived physical influence of gods-"god of the gaps" as it's popularly known. I think religious evolution could be very important to the game, and it might be advantageous for the player to control a religious leader instead of a national leader at some times, since their religion can cross boundaries of nation.

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PostSubject: Re: Religion and Society   Thu May 10, 2012 1:38 am

now i know this idea sounds crazy, but what if your government type was a theocracy, and the game would randomly allow for deities to show up. being a theocracy would increase civil order, and discovering a deity would give your society massive bonuses while finding out their is no one watching your species would lead to massive revolts
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PostSubject: Re: Religion and Society   Thu May 10, 2012 1:51 am

If we start throwing deities into scripting this is going to get real complicated REAL fast. What is a deity and to what extent is its power, based on what and where and where does this deity stand in relation to other deities since they might exist wherever someone believes in them, heck they might just gain mana and send warriors and giant physical manifestations at one another..... Oh wait... That's the game Black and White. If we get into the supernatural we are seriously deviating from simple and scientific. Everything from souls to hell to why the universe exists will have to be fought on this slippery slope. Or we could create something more on the way of a game where you control a species having a hard enoug time without supernatural forces that will be perceived as glitches. If the player gets existential, there is some mystery in the basic concept of Thrive like how does the player control this species and why did all the things in the simulated universe happen, but it should be left at that: the players pondering imagination. It IS possible to script a group of organisms beleiving something. It is NOT possible (or at least plausible) to script that which, by definition, defies explanation or understanding.
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PostSubject: Re: Religion and Society   Thu May 10, 2012 6:22 am

~sciocont wrote:
This is all, to my knowledge, completely correct. Religion has a definite evolution, and righ now lots of religions are entering a new phase, where threats to the integrity of the religion or questions over the existence of gods/deities are driving people towards the ends of the spectrum- the more religiously zealous are becoming increasingly so, whereas the less inclined are ditching it altogether or simply leaving organized religion as a whole. This is also a point at which the relentless progress of science chips away at the perceived physical influence of gods-"god of the gaps" as it's popularly known. I think religious evolution could be very important to the game, and it might be advantageous for the player to control a religious leader instead of a national leader at some times, since their religion can cross boundaries of nation.

I'd be hesitant to say that. The universe is infinite, and as long as there is a source, we will demand a source for that source. Ad infinitum.

Besides, most of the time religion and science are asking two different questions: science asks how, where religion asks why.

P.S. NO DIETIES. This is final. If they do show up, if will ONLY be as a little easter egg, perhaps like hearing someone say "Wake up!" upon acheiving sentience. NO MORE.
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PostSubject: Re: Religion and Society   Thu May 10, 2012 8:20 am

A question:

You could create a godless civilization that is based solely on scientific and technological progress?
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Tenebrarum
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PostSubject: Re: Religion and Society   Thu May 10, 2012 3:15 pm

Doggit wrote:
A question:

You could create a godless civilization that is based solely on scientific and technological progress?

No. Perhaps eventually an entirely atheist society can be formed, but not right off the bat. You have to at least get to a point where mythology is no longer necessary, and even then people will desire some form of spiritual fufillment. Religion does not have to be what fills this role, but is likely to be the logical conclusion of any organized spirituality.

The same forces that drive us to science also drive us to religion. Curiosity just works like that.
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Doggit
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PostSubject: Re: Religion and Society   Thu May 10, 2012 3:44 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
Doggit wrote:
A question:

You could create a godless civilization that is based solely on scientific and technological progress?

No. Perhaps eventually an entirely atheist society can be formed, but not right off the bat. You have to at least get to a point where mythology is no longer necessary, and even then people will desire some form of spiritual fufillment. Religion does not have to be what fills this role, but is likely to be the logical conclusion of any organized spirituality.

The same forces that drive us to science also drive us to religion. Curiosity just works like that.

In a tribal culture is normal to expect people to believe in one or more gods, but it is also necessary in an industrial civilization, or a space civilization? Religion is not necessary.
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PostSubject: Re: Religion and Society   Thu May 10, 2012 3:55 pm

Doggit wrote:

In a tribal culture is normal to expect people to believe in one or more gods, but it is also necessary in an industrial civilization, or a space civilization? Religion is not necessary.

Necessary does not really come into it. It's a question of likelyhood. You can make a government that heavily supresses religion, but spirituality will always exist in some form or other, and religion is, as I said, the logical conclusion of most (if not all) organized spirituality. As long as there are people asking why, there will be religion.
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PostSubject: Re: Religion and Society   Thu May 10, 2012 8:13 pm

First post: Rex, you're a belgiumming genius.

Everybody else: since part of sentience is awareness of death, and the other part is communicating abstract ideas, at the very least rudmentary (I hesitate to call it primitive) animistic religion is as likely as we can reasonably postulate to develop somewhere in a society, even one that is essentially a family with a campfire. At the very least, there will be legends and myths, which we're lumping under religion for now, because they serve similar functions. They provide an organism faced with the implacable natural world an alternative to helplessness and despair: a way to understand the world and potentially influence it.

Of course, there's likely to be as many religions as there are people willing to puzzle out the universe, and atheism will of course be possible. Technically, though, Religion is two things: belief and ritual. Rituals will develop out of necessity and be vital to group cohesion and the process of socialization. We will be dealing almost exclusively with Ritual, as it's the editable bit, and belief occurs only in the individual mind.

Forgive me for the technicalities, I just finished my second semester of ancient religions.

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PostSubject: Re: Religion and Society   Thu May 10, 2012 8:27 pm

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
First post: Rex, you're a belgiumming genius.
Spoiler:
 

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
Of course, there's likely to be as many religions as there are people willing to puzzle out the universe, and atheism will of course be possible. Technically, though, Religion is two things: belief and ritual. Rituals will develop out of necessity and be vital to group cohesion and the process of socialization. We will be dealing almost exclusively with Ritual, as it's the editable bit, and belief occurs only in the individual mind.

Forgive me for the technicalities, I just finished my second semester of ancient religions.

THIS. THIS RIGHT HERE.
Religion is not about providing an alternative to science. Religion is about coming to terms with the nature of the universe.
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PostSubject: Re: Religion and Society   Thu May 10, 2012 10:07 pm

Religion is almost always going to be there in some form, but it does definitely change its purpose over time. That change from concrete to spiritual purpose is what we need to pay attention to and model.

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PostSubject: Re: Religion and Society   Fri May 11, 2012 3:24 pm

~sciocont wrote:
Religion is almost always going to be there in some form, but it does definitely change its purpose over time. That change from concrete to spiritual purpose is what we need to pay attention to and model.

And now we can start figuring out the changes in socia function. Group cohesion is always a big part of it, but as non-religious groups grow, it tends to be less all-encompassing.

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PostSubject: Re: Religion and Society   Fri May 11, 2012 10:24 pm

Will there be crusaders or religious wars?
Will similar civilizations with similar religions be allies in these wars?
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PostSubject: Re: Religion and Society   Fri May 11, 2012 11:05 pm

That sounds feasible.
Two reasons for wars inspired by religion: the first is that two "nations" with opposed (state supported) religions and overall a lot of tension could go to war, the second that one "nation" holds an arbitrarily designated "religious location of item" that the other one wants.
Both require religion to be fairly involved with the government and to have a lot of power over the citizens.

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PostSubject: Re: Religion and Society   Fri May 11, 2012 11:07 pm

Well if you look at the medieval ages religion was a way to gain prestige as a king, so i think it would be very common in a tribal type stage.
Also will there be a religious leadership role, such as the Papacy in Europa Universallis III?
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PostSubject: Re: Religion and Society   Fri May 11, 2012 11:20 pm

Posssible but probably shouldn't be required. In some cases, where you have a high correlation between government and relition, you'll have head of religion and head of state as the same position.

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PostSubject: Re: Religion and Society   Fri May 11, 2012 11:26 pm

I'm sorry but I don't think you understand.

In games developed by Paradox Interactive, there is usually a head of religion that is a separate country and has special powers.

Like in Crusader Kings 2, the Papacy has the ability to excommunicate and call crusaders, and in EUIII it includes a cardinal system where certain countries can take over the Papacy.

I think it would be interesting to see society develop a pagan religion, and each god gets representation by a certain city-state, and a city-state can control more than 1. So if the religion has 5 gods and 1 city controls 3, the leader of that city is the leader of the religion as well.

Think Holy Roman Empire.
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PostSubject: Re: Religion and Society   Sat May 12, 2012 1:13 pm

PTFace wrote:
I'm sorry but I don't think you understand.

In games developed by Paradox Interactive, there is usually a head of religion that is a separate country and has special powers.

Like in Crusader Kings 2, the Papacy has the ability to excommunicate and call crusaders, and in EUIII it includes a cardinal system where certain countries can take over the Papacy.

I think it would be interesting to see society develop a pagan religion, and each god gets representation by a certain city-state, and a city-state can control more than 1. So if the religion has 5 gods and 1 city controls 3, the leader of that city is the leader of the religion as well.

Think Holy Roman Empire.

Ah, okay. Your second idea is something like the Greek city states, where many gods were worshipped but each city had a "patron diety." However, in the real Greek city states, worship of a city's patron diety in another city was not influenced by the city that they patronized. I'm just pointing out that we don't want to hardcode that there has to be a head of religion, or that religion has to be involved in government. We want to have a wide variety of options open for civ stage, because it's going to last a while.

(I meant 'not the only option we should put in' not 'unnecessary to have in the game' by unnecessary.)

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