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 Microbe Stage First Build Concept

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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:19 am

Ok, we've gone through a lot on microbe stage in general, but it seems that not a lot has changed. Since we finally have a great team willing to program, I think it's time to nail some things down. Keep tin mind that this thread is about the BARE ESSENTIALS. This is about how we structure and execute the first build of unicellular stage.

Environment
The environment is top-down, with only one layer to move about on. This layer is the midground, where you and most of the things that you interact with are.

Underneath the midground layer, there is a background, which is just the texture of the surface you are on.

Between the midground and background is the film layer. On this layer grow the bacterial films on which you may feed. Bacterial films are simply colonies of bacteria, all growing together. This, in a way, acts like the plants of large multicellular stage. We'll include a few types of film for different conditions, which have different compositions. This will be investigated further later.

In front of the midground is the foreground. The foreground consists of any parts of the environment that are in front of you- bubbles, other films, etc. Its purpose is essentially decorative. it's not really essential for the first build.

So, the environment is set up
foreground
midground
film layer
background


Gameplay
You swim around and eat things. Gameplay is probably the thing we've discussed most, so I'll be expanding this more later with info from past threads. I'd like to change it so that it focuses more on evolution than endocytosis, since cell stage is where we'll be testing auto-evo. We'll still include things like mitochondria and chloroplasts being developed through endocytosis, but most of the other "proto-cells" don't seem extremely necessary to me.

You begin as a eukaryote, basically a simple protist. You'll respire anaerobically and have a nucleus, ribosomes, and simple golgi apparatus and ER. We'll assume that the mechanics of DNA replication and protein synthesis have already been perfected.

Editor
The editor will allow you to edit your cell when you are selected to evolve. In it you can edit your membrane, cytoskeleton, and organelles, as well as basic behavior. It will essentially act like a mini org-edior.

Cytoskeletal
Here you shape your cytoskeleton. This is done by taking skeletal fibers and drawing them into your desired shape. Essentailly, you are engineering your cell like you would a bridge. The fibers pivot wherever they attach to each other, and you can snap fibers to other pivot points to create a rigid shape. With this, you can create a wide array of different body shapes, and the skeletal structure will have a profound effect on how your organism moves and interacts with its environment. You'll only have a limited budget to create the skeleton, so efficiency is key.


(To programmers- how easy would it be to make the fibers slightly bendy? or bendy to separate degrees so that we can designate certain areas that are more rigid than others?)

Organelles
Organs are placed within the limits of the cytoskeleton. Their position isn't extremely important, but their functions do have an effect on their shape. Upgrading their efficiencies will change their size and shape, but most will be fairly malleable so that you can put them into your cytoskeleton correctly.

Membrane
The membrane surrounds your cell. When you go into the membrane tab, a membrane is automatically generated around your skeleton by connecting a segmented line in between all of the convex outer points of your cytoskeleton. The line attaches itself to these points, so the generated membrane only flexes over concave portions of the cytoskeleton. You can add to the membrane by pulling portions of it outwards. You can also add an inner ring of membrane somewhere (so long as it does not cross any cytoskelatal fibers or organs) to give your cell a torus like shape to increase surface area.

On top of the memberane, you can have the game create a rigid cell wall to protect the inner cell.

Color
You can change the color of the membrane/cell wall to any color, but you cannot change their opacities.


Here's what I think the skeletal/membrane tabs will be like. And I mean exactly, this is what They'll look like. They'll have a GUI, but the shapes here are what I expect us to be able to make.

I'm going to be basing pretty much all of my visuals for this off of this cell design. Let's call it lunacellula (older members: remember evobeast?)


I know there's a lot more to add here, but that's what I have for now. I'll update this with more illustrations soon.

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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:07 am

~sciocont wrote:
Ok, we've gone through a lot on microbe stage in general, but it seems that not a lot has changed. Since we finally have a great team willing to program, I think it's time to nail some things down. Keep tin mind that this thread is about the BARE ESSENTIALS. This is about how we structure and execute the first build of unicellular stage.

Environment
The environment is top-down, with only one layer to move about on. This layer is the midground, where you and most of the things that you interact with are.

Underneath the midground layer, there is a background, which is just the texture of the surface you are on.

Between the midground and background is the film layer. On this layer grow the bacterial films on which you may feed. Bacterial films are simply colonies of bacteria, all growing together. This, in a way, acts like the plants of large multicellular stage. We'll include a few types of film for different conditions, which have different compositions. This will be investigated further later.

In front of the midground is the foreground. The foreground consists of any parts of the environment that are in front of you- bubbles, other films, etc. Its purpose is essentially decorative. it's not really essential for the first build.

So, the environment is set up
foreground
midground
film layer
background


Gameplay
You swim around and eat things. Gameplay is probably the thing we've discussed most, so I'll be expanding this more later with info from past threads. I'd like to change it so that it focuses more on evolution than endocytosis, since cell stage is where we'll be testing auto-evo. We'll still include things like mitochondria and chloroplasts being developed through endocytosis, but most of the other "proto-cells" don't seem extremely necessary to me.

You begin as a eukaryote, basically a simple protist. You'll respire anaerobically and have a nucleus, ribosomes, and simple golgi apparatus and ER. We'll assume that the mechanics of DNA replication and protein synthesis have already been perfected.

Editor
The editor will allow you to edit your cell when you are selected to evolve. In it you can edit your membrane, cytoskeleton, and organelles, as well as basic behavior. It will essentially act like a mini org-edior.

Cytoskeletal
Here you shape your cytoskeleton. This is done by taking skeletal fibers and drawing them into your desired shape. Essentailly, you are engineering your cell like you would a bridge. The fibers pivot wherever they attach to each other, and you can snap fibers to other pivot points to create a rigid shape. With this, you can create a wide array of different body shapes, and the skeletal structure will have a profound effect on how your organism moves and interacts with its environment. You'll only have a limited budget to create the skeleton, so efficiency is key.


(To programmers- how easy would it be to make the fibers slightly bendy? or bendy to separate degrees so that we can designate certain areas that are more rigid than others?)

Organelles
Organs are placed within the limits of the cytoskeleton. Their position isn't extremely important, but their functions do have an effect on their shape. Upgrading their efficiencies will change their size and shape, but most will be fairly malleable so that you can put them into your cytoskeleton correctly.

Membrane
The membrane surrounds your cell. When you go into the membrane tab, a membrane is automatically generated around your skeleton by connecting a segmented line in between all of the convex outer points of your cytoskeleton. The line attaches itself to these points, so the generated membrane only flexes over concave portions of the cytoskeleton. You can add to the membrane by pulling portions of it outwards. You can also add an inner ring of membrane somewhere (so long as it does not cross any cytoskelatal fibers or organs) to give your cell a torus like shape to increase surface area.

On top of the memberane, you can have the game create a rigid cell wall to protect the inner cell.

Color
You can change the color of the membrane/cell wall to any color, but you cannot change their opacities.


Here's what I think the skeletal/membrane tabs will be like. And I mean exactly, this is what They'll look like. They'll have a GUI, but the shapes here are what I expect us to be able to make.

I'm going to be basing pretty much all of my visuals for this off of this cell design. Let's call it lunacellula (older members: remember evobeast?)


I know there's a lot more to add here, but that's what I have for now. I'll update this with more illustrations soon.

Is the background is going to moving ("Living"), If yes, we need to find some animators.
Also, We could have some inner standard cell suff inside every cell, Just so it will be more realistic, These stuff doesn't have to have any effect on the gameplay, but that your call.
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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:59 am

One could simulate animation by slightly randomizing the z values of the (outer) skeletal points. I guess stuff like that will be implemented into the procedural movement system.
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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:18 am

Carnifex wrote:
One could simulate animation by slightly randomizing the z values of the (outer) skeletal points. I guess stuff like that will be implemented into the procedural movement system.

So, the background will act like the upper lair, and Skeletal points in there move?
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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:23 am

~sciocont wrote:
You begin as a eukaryote, basically a simple protist. You'll respire anaerobically and have a nucleus, ribosomes, and simple golgi apparatus and ER. We'll assume that the mechanics of DNA replication and protein synthesis have already been perfected.
Unless you mean just for the basic first version, it does not seem wise to start as a eukaryote; logically, prokaryotes should be the starting point, even if the player can then 'grow' a nucleus the first chance they get (within 10 minutes of gameplay).

~sciocont wrote:
To programmers- how easy would it be to make the fibers slightly bendy? or bendy to separate degrees so that we can designate certain areas that are more rigid than others?
Do you mean bendy as in elastic, or bendy as in side to side? It would probably not be difficult either way (speaking from somewhat limited personal experience).

~sciocont wrote:
The membrane surrounds your cell. When you go into the membrane tab, a membrane is automatically generated around your skeleton by connecting a segmented line in between all of the convex outer points of your cytoskeleton. The line attaches itself to these points, so the generated membrane only flexes over concave portions of the cytoskeleton. You can add to the membrane by pulling portions of it outwards. You can also add an inner ring of membrane somewhere (so long as it does not cross any cytoskeletal fibers or organs) to give your cell a torus like shape to increase surface area.
I'm not entirely sure what you exactly meant by inner layer, but just for scientific facts a cell membrane is composed of a lipid bilayer with a somewhat hollow area between the lipid layers.

ido66667 wrote:
Is the background is going to moving ("Living"), If yes, we need to find some animators.
Not necessarily, we could just run a basic version of the foreground behind the playable area.

For player-made undulopods (flagella, cilia, amoeba-legs), we may need to find out how much volume the wave motion would create (and therefore how fast it would move). Also, with procedural movement systems, how would the control scheme be affected, would the controls move individual segments (more work) or would they move themselves to go in a particular direction (also more work).
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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:21 am

GamerXA wrote:
ido66667 wrote:
Is the background is going to moving ("Living"), If yes, we need to find some animators.
Not necessarily, we could just run a basic version of the foreground behind the playable area.


Well, Think about it, This is the same problem, as the foreground is much like the background, But carnifex helped.

"One could simulate animation by slightly randomizing the z values of the (outer) skeletal points. I guess stuff like that will be implemented into the procedural movement system."

I understand form it that there will be cells in there, but they will have random z... A little, I think by z he means the movment, Random z of the outer Skeletal points, But, here is another one, If there will be a random z, I think they will just Twitch and move around in an odd manner.
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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:15 am

Quote :
Unless you mean just for the basic first version, it does not seem wise to start as a eukaryote; logically, prokaryotes should be the starting point, even if the player can then 'grow' a nucleus the first chance they get (within 10 minutes of gameplay).
Sorry, this was decided a long time ago. It's just not that interesting to be a bacteria.
Quote :
Do you mean bendy as in elastic, or bendy as in side to side? It would probably not be difficult either way (speaking from somewhat limited personal experience).
Both. I want the cell to appear flexible.

The membrane is the regular phospholipid type. The inner layer that I was suggesting would act to increase surface area. I'll make an illustration.

Quote :
For player-made undulopods (flagella, cilia, amoeba-legs), we may need to find out how much volume the wave motion would create (and therefore how fast it would move). Also, with procedural movement systems, how would the control scheme be affected, would the controls move individual segments (more work) or would they move themselves to go in a particular direction (also more work).
We don't necessarily need to find this out, we just give them different speeds that work for gameplay. Control schemes would be a simple "follow the pointer" interface, I think. You might be able to click and drag on flexible pats of your cell.
Quote :
One could simulate animation by slightly randomizing the z values of the (outer) skeletal points. I guess stuff like that will be implemented into the procedural movement system.
Do you mean simulate movement up and down within the layer?

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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:22 pm

~sciocont wrote:

Quote :
One could simulate animation by slightly randomizing the z values of the (outer) skeletal points. I guess stuff like that will be implemented into the procedural movement system.
Do you mean simulate movement up and down within the layer?

I think that what he means, but there is one problem, I think that if we do that, the cells will just move oddly and randomly...
I have an idea, The background could be just the same is the main lair, When the player moves in the main lair, he moves in the background too, The only diffrence, that while the player moves in there, That layer ignores him, Completly.
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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:59 pm

ido66667 wrote:
~sciocont wrote:

Quote :
One could simulate animation by slightly randomizing the z values of the (outer) skeletal points. I guess stuff like that will be implemented into the procedural movement system.
Do you mean simulate movement up and down within the layer?

I think that what he means, but there is one problem, I think that if we do that, the cells will just move oddly and randomly...
I have an idea, The background could be just the same is the main lair, When the player moves in the main lair, he moves in the background too, The only diffrence, that while the player moves in there, That layer ignores him, Completly.
Yeah, my idea was that all layers are fixed and the player moves through/over them with the camera. We can give the illusion of 3 dimensions by moving the foreground layer at a slower rate than the background and film layers.

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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:04 pm

~sciocont wrote:
ido66667 wrote:
~sciocont wrote:

Quote :
One could simulate animation by slightly randomizing the z values of the (outer) skeletal points. I guess stuff like that will be implemented into the procedural movement system.
Do you mean simulate movement up and down within the layer?

I think that what he means, but there is one problem, I think that if we do that, the cells will just move oddly and randomly...
I have an idea, The background could be just the same is the main lair, When the player moves in the main lair, he moves in the background too, The only diffrence, that while the player moves in there, That layer ignores him, Completly.
Yeah, my idea was that all layers are fixed and the player moves through/over them with the camera. We can give the illusion of 3 dimensions by moving the foreground layer at a slower rate than the background and film layers.

We don't even need to do The "Move above them", The player can move in all of them, but the once that are not interactable, will just ignore the player.
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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:00 pm

Wow, Nice work here guys!
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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:54 pm

(100th Post)

I love your post, scio. But I think starting off as a protist is a little advanced. Would it be possible to have a tetris clone before the cell level where you build up to a protist?
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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:12 pm

Oh programming this will be so much fun. Oh and for the fiber thing, i'm no graphics expert but i suppose if we have the graphics for the fibers as textures on a plane, and screw with the plane, it will deform the texture in a way that makes the fiber seem bendy.
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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:21 pm

I'm going to jump in the bandwagon and say, wonderful work Scio! It's great to be able to see all these concepts come together into an organised, concise thread. Progress to the Microbe Stage seems to be rolling smoothly.

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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:04 am

jaws2blood wrote:
Oh programming this will be so much fun. Oh and for the fiber thing, i'm no graphics expert but i suppose if we have the graphics for the fibers as textures on a plane, and screw with the plane, it will deform the texture in a way that makes the fiber seem bendy.

Yeah, Progamming this will not be so hard, as it is very orginized, and not messy.
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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:24 pm

Quote :
We don't even need to do The "Move above them", The player can move in all of them, but the once that are not interactable, will just ignore the player.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying.

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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:52 pm

ido66667 wrote:
jaws2blood wrote:
Oh programming this will be so much fun. Oh and for the fiber thing, i'm no graphics expert but i suppose if we have the graphics for the fibers as textures on a plane, and screw with the plane, it will deform the texture in a way that makes the fiber seem bendy.

Yeah, Progamming this will not be so hard, as it is very orginized, and not messy.

Uhm.. yeah it will be hard to program since these movements involve a lot of thought, math, more math, and more thought. You have to keep many different factors, exceptions, etc. It's not going to be one simple function if that's what you think.
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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:48 pm

Carnifex wrote:
ido66667 wrote:
jaws2blood wrote:
Oh programming this will be so much fun. Oh and for the fiber thing, i'm no graphics expert but i suppose if we have the graphics for the fibers as textures on a plane, and screw with the plane, it will deform the texture in a way that makes the fiber seem bendy.

Yeah, Progamming this will not be so hard, as it is very orginized, and not messy.

Uhm.. yeah it will be hard to program since these movements involve a lot of thought, math, more math, and more thought. You have to keep many different factors, exceptions, etc. It's not going to be one simple function if that's what you think.

what he said.
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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:27 pm

Please don't quote the entire OP, especially when the question is so general
~scio



So will we be moving shapes on a static background, or will we be slightly opaque, moving, living creatures with texture and color all around us?
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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:08 pm

The background is static, you will interact with other cells and objects in your environment, the ones that are in the midground.

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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:59 am

Carnifex wrote:
ido66667 wrote:
jaws2blood wrote:
Oh programming this will be so much fun. Oh and for the fiber thing, i'm no graphics expert but i suppose if we have the graphics for the fibers as textures on a plane, and screw with the plane, it will deform the texture in a way that makes the fiber seem bendy.

Yeah, Progamming this will not be so hard, as it is very orginized, and not messy.

Uhm.. yeah it will be hard to program since these movements involve a lot of thought, math, more math, and more thought. You have to keep many different factors, exceptions, etc. It's not going to be one simple function if that's what you think.

Why not just make it like the Interactive lair, And Just make it static?
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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:02 pm

~sciocont wrote:
The background is static, you will interact with other cells and objects in your environment, the ones that are in the midground.



Oh darn, so no moving background? What about ambient noise or anything?
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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:28 pm

The finished version should atleast have a 3-d background
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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:48 pm

PTFace wrote:
The finished version should atleast have a 3-d background


Yeah, even if it is as simple as a slightly flowing background, it'd be okay. As long as it isn't boring and static.
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PostSubject: Re: Microbe Stage First Build Concept   Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:52 pm

Waves always look classy as Belgium
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