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Calfeggs
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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:32 pm

NickTheNick wrote:
Guys, great work with all this brainstorming!

However, governments can't just be a list like we have with resources and cultures. The important part of governments is that they are composed of two parts, a model and a form.
The model of a government is the base foundation, such as monarchy, republic, tribalism, despotism, empire, etc. These need to be distinct and not overlap too much. The model of a government is the part of the name that cannot be changed.
The form of a government is the adjective that describes the model, such as tribal, constitutional, absolute, mercantile, bureaucratic, feudal, etc.

Therefore any government is just a composition of one model, and one form. In an Absolute Monarchy, the Absolute is the form and the Monarchy is the model. Here is a list where we can organize our current lists of forms and models.

MODELS

Monarchy
Republic
Empire
Tribalism
Despotism

FORMS

Tribal
Feudal/Noble
Administrative/Bureaucratic
Imperial
Constitutional
Absolute/Enlightened
Theocratic/Religious

Military

Of course certain combinations of models and forms do not work, like Imperial Empire, or Tribal Tribalism. Also note that there is no such thing as "Early" governments. A republic founded 2000 years ago can be the exact same model as a republic founded today. Instead, the variable that changes is administration. Also, these models and forms are all unlocked by researching the appropriate technology. Therefore, early governments will be simulated without a distinct government form called "Early".

Also, communism isn't a government form, and neither is robocracy. Both of those are economic models that will be simulated in game. Communism can be achieved by setting the Economic Freedoms slider very low, with any further possibilities of achieving it to be determined. Robocracy can be achieved when robotics is discovered, by replacing workers in factories with robots.

Lastly, I am really glad to see you guys using the in game variables, but you don't have to worry about those right now. For now it is important just to get a list of the different government models and forms, while we also work to pin down the effects and workings of the other variables in game.

Intersting. I like it.
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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:29 pm

Ok guys, I have been working on this and I have concluded that Empire and Tribalism do not belong under the Models category. I have also tweaked the Forms list. I'll be posting a chart to organize this all soon. Also, I have decided that players can change the entire name of their government type, but when they hover their cursor over the icon, beside the name they have given it is the actual name in brackets. I think this works much better than only being able to customize the first word.

I took out tribalism because governments with the Tribal form are the same thing. I took out Empire and Imperial because their is no distinct government structure that makes something an empire, it is more a matter of prestige and size and income and other things. For that reason I decided the whole name should be able to be changed because then players can name themselves as an Empire, Emirate, Kritarchy, or whatever else they want to be without actually having to make specific government types for that in game. Basically, being an Empire is more just image than structure.

Here is the new and improved government type list:

MODELS

Monarchy
Republic
Despotism

FORMS

Tribal
Feudal/Noble
Administrative/Bureaucratic
Mercantile
Constitutional
Absolute/Enlightened
Theocratic/Religious

Military

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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:17 pm

NickTheNick wrote:
Ok guys, I have been working on this and I have concluded that Empire and Tribalism do not belong under the Models category. I have also tweaked the Forms list. I'll be posting a chart to organize this all soon. Also, I have decided that players can change the entire name of their government type, but when they hover their cursor over the icon, beside the name they have given it is the actual name in brackets. I think this works much better than only being able to customize the first word.

I took out tribalism because governments with the Tribal form are the same thing. I took out Empire and Imperial because their is no distinct government structure that makes something an empire, it is more a matter of prestige and size and income and other things. For that reason I decided the whole name should be able to be changed because then players can name themselves as an Empire, Emirate, Kritarchy, or whatever else they want to be without actually having to make specific government types for that in game. Basically, being an Empire is more just image than structure.

Here is the new and improved government type list:

MODELS

Monarchy
Republic
Despotism

FORMS

Tribal
Feudal/Noble
Administrative/Bureaucratic
Mercantile
Constitutional
Absolute/Enlightened
Theocratic/Religious

Military

Missing state atheism .. is very important as form.

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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:35 pm

State atheism is not a government. Enforcing atheism across the country can be a policy of the country, but it is not a government in and of itself. Any of the government types or forms, except theocracy/religious, can enforce state atheism.

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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:19 am

NickTheNick wrote:
State atheism is not a government. Enforcing atheism across the country can be a policy of the country, but it is not a government in and of itself. Any of the government types or forms, except theocracy/religious, can enforce state atheism.

ok I understand but the list missed many forms

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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:16 pm

Isn't there already a thread for this somewhere?
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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:15 pm

@Brennus: I don't know. I hope not or else this is redundant brainstorming.

@Doggit: I would have to disagree. I think the list covers almost everything we need. Do you have any suggestions for more?

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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:09 pm

Oh wait, I was thinking of a thread for a similar topic. never mind!
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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:27 am



I made a video to make public the types of government relations / effects between them. Of course I wrote that they are still not the official ones, although they get very close.

P.s. See it in full screen

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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Sat May 18, 2013 6:45 am

Theme: Constitutional monarchy
Description: Constitutional monarchy is a form of government in which a monarch acts as head of state within the guidelines of a constitution, whether it be a written, uncodified, or blended constitution. This form of government differs from absolute monarchy in which an absolute monarch serves as the source of power in the state and is not legally bound by any constitution and has the powers to regulate his or her respective government.
Effects: +5% order, + 1 % discipline, + 1 % Training troops, + 5% revolts, + 5% relations with the other nations monarchical

Theme: Monarchy
Description: A monarchy is a kind of government where a monarch, a kind of hereditary ruler (someone who inherits their office), is the head of state.
Effects: +15%order, + 5% population growth, + 5% discipline, + 5 % Training troops, + 10% revolts, - 10 % relations with the other nations non-monarchical, + 15% relations with the other nations monarchical

Theme: Absolute Monarchy
Description: Absolute monarchy is a monarchial form of government in which the monarch exercises ultimate governing authority as head of state and head of government; his or her powers are not limited by a constitution or by the law. An absolute monarch wields unrestricted political power over the sovereign state and its people.
Effects: +20% order, + 10% population growth, + 10% discipline, + 15 % Training troops, + 35% revolts, - 30 % relations with the other nations non-monarchical, + 15% relations with the other nations monarchical


I have not found many negative points for the monarchy (in general) .. you can help me?


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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Sat May 18, 2013 2:04 pm

Sorry Doggit, but that's not the way that government will work. The player won't pick from a list of different types of government.

Instead, they will pick specific things about their government, like how their leaders are picked, how governors are picked, etc.

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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Sat May 18, 2013 8:18 pm

NickTheNick wrote:
Sorry Doggit, but that's not the way that government will work. The player won't pick from a list of different types of government.

Instead, they will pick specific things about their government, like how their leaders are picked, how governors are picked, etc.

Ok im sorry

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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Sat May 18, 2013 9:05 pm

Don't worry about it. It's not on the wiki yet, so I need to update that soon.

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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:07 pm

I've had a look at what's been discussed so far and I have a few concerns. A lot of inspiration seems to be taken from strategy games like Civilization and Europa Universalis and the problem that I have with those games is that they tend to tell rather than show how different governments function. For example they might say that this particular government is an Absolute Monarchy, which gives these effects, or that's a Democracy which gives a different set of benefits and drawbacks and the leader changes every 4-8 years.

Rather than relying on rigid categorisation of what governments are instead I think an alternative would be to allow the player to build the institutions of government from the ground up. What we could do is break governments down into their constituent parts: executive, legislative and judiciary. Each of these can have various different variables which dictate how people are appointed to these roles. The various titles of these positions and institutions can also be named by the player to add to the degree of customisation.

Executives determine who proposes laws and may also have certain executive prerogatives (i.e. a dictator may be able to rule by decree on certain issues, or an elected President may be able to declare war without consulting the rest of the government depending on the country's constitution). At the very least there will always be a single individual here who is the head of state, but the executive may also include a cabinet, which can either serve as an advisory role or can . If they want they can separate the Head of State and the Head of Government and give them different roles, such as the Head of State serving a ceremonial role with the Head of Government being in charge of political affairs, or they can be combined into one person.

Legislatures vote on and amend legislation, and under certain laws may be able to propose it. They are divided into parliaments of which you can have as many as you wish. These parliaments can either be political, giving them the ability to strike down legislation, or advisory, meaning that they can delay and amend legislation but cannot stop it outright. The number of seats that a parliament has can be chosen by the player.

The ways that people are appointed to these institutions can also be chosen by the player. For example the head of State could be hereditary as in a Monarchy (with the details of inheritance also determined by the player), or they might be elected by a popular vote, chosen by the parliament, selected by lottery from a particular class or from parliament, elected by a particular section of society i.e. the nobility, etc. In terms of elections the player can also determine the voting franchise, excluding certain groups (women, heretics, slaves etc.) and placing certain qualifications (literacy, property, paying a particular tax).

Judiciaries determine how judges are selected. For example they may be answerable directly controlled by the legislature or executive, appointed by the government but given a degree of autonomy or directly elected by the people. In the even of a Communistic/Anarchistic government judicial positions might be abolished with local disputes resolved through direct local democracy. The degree to which the judiciary is independent of the government determines how easy it is to implement laws, i.e. if the current government appointed all of the judges in the Supreme Court and can withdraw them at will then things will probably go a little smoother, whereas if they are independent and cannot be removed by the government they might cause issues.

So to give a couple of examples:

The UK government would have a ceremonial Head of State who was hereditary, a Head of Government who is the head of whichever party controls the House of Commons. There are two parliaments, the House of Lords and the House of Commons. The House of Lords is an advisory parliament, its members are appointed the government and are members for life (although they can give up their position due to health or if they want to stand in the Commons). The House of Commons is a political parliament with 650 seats, with terms lasting until a general election is called. It's members are elected from constituencies with a universal franchise excluding non-citizens.

The US government has a combined Head of State and Head of Government (the President) who is elected by an independent electoral college in each state (though in practice they always vote with the popular vote of their state) and has a maximum 2 term limit, although these can be non-consecutive. It has two parliaments the House of Representatives and the Senate, both of which are political. The Senate receives 2 members from each state in the Union, whilst the House of Representatives receives them in proportion to their population. The terms in the Senate are for 6 years, but are staggered so that 1/3 of them are running for election every 2 years, whereas in the House of Representatives the terms are for 2 years, with elections held on every even number. Members of the Supreme Court are appointed by the President and serve for life (each judge is sympathetic to the politics of the President that appointed them, but may still disagree with them).

A Noble Republic might have Head of State and Government that ruled for life or for a fixed terms, drawn from the nobility and elected by the nobility, with a political parliament drawn from the nobility and an advisory parliament elected by the people, excluding the poor and illiterate.

An Absolute Monarchy would have a hereditary Head of State and Government, with either no parliaments or solely advisory parliaments, the ability to rule by decree, the ability to appoint and remove judges and personal control over all or most of the armed forces.

In terms of changing how governments are constituted, the player can either reform them slowly over time, which requires gaining political support for these changes, or in the even of a revolution or counter-revolution the player has the ability to rapidly redefine the institutions of government.


This is just a rough idea, and I doubt that it covers everything, but I can see how certain mechanics can be built to incorporate them.
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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:37 pm

As far as I can tell, the way it is planned is there are sliders in the Nation Editor to determine how many seats/positions there are in the branches, and sliders to determine how much power and freedom the branches and the people have. The effectiveness of government is determined by how corrupt the officials are and the power of the different classes.

For example, with enough freedom, capitalists will actually build factories on their own.

I don't know if my information is outdated or not. And as far as I know, there are technologies for the player to research that lets their civilization better manage larger amounts of citizens.
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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:51 pm

Well the problem with relying too heavily on sliders is that they tend to oversimplify things. It might tell you that country A has more legal freedom than country B or that this branch of the government has more power than that one, but it doesn't tell us what those freedoms are or how those different branches of government relate to each other. Furthermore, it tends to generalise the values that its supposed to represent. Things like power aren't zero-sum values that can be calculated in relation to other quantities of power. One institution might have a significant degree of power in one area, but next to no power in another.

I have a lot of trouble with the idea of trying to categorise freedom with a slider as a slider wouldn't be able to tell us what the various freedoms are. Two countries might have the same level of freedom, but might restrict their citizens in different ways. One might place restrictions on the freedom to worship different religions, whilst the other might ban trade unions. Even if we try to break it down into different types of freedom (economic, religious, social, and political for example) there are problems with the details. If we class economic freedom as simply non-intervention in the economy by the government and allowing people to use there property as they see fit, then you end up in a situation where high economic freedom = capitalism, and low economic freedom = everything else including feudalism, slavery, primitive communism, state-ownership, mutualism, syndicalism, anarcho-communism, anarcho-collectivism and parecon, to say nothing of overlooking the numerous interventions presupposed by the existence of property rights in the first place (i.e. the enforcement of contracts and the courts and police to enforce them, the acknowledging of absentee ownership, regulations on squatting, regulations on inheritance, universal systems of weights and measures, etc.).

There are also issues if we consider freedom in terms of positive freedom and negative freedom. Negative freedoms are freedom from coercion, and are usually expressed as freedom from things i.e. people aren't allowed to beat you up if you follow a different religion, whereas positive freedoms are the ability to do something, i.e. having the excess money to be able to afford higher levels of education.

Incidentally I would disagree that capitalists would build factories on their own when there was enough freedom. Capitalists build factories when it is profitable to do so. The various factors that dictate include: whether or not there are legally enforced capitalists property rights and contracts (as distinguished from communal and common property, state-owned property or firms that were mutually owned and managed by their worker's), the means to enforce them (an effective police force, low levels of corruption in certain areas, an effective judiciary and well established bureaucracy), how much capital the capitalists in question has access to (its easy to take risks when you aren't at risk of poverty if things go badly), the existence of a large potential workforce who are or can be trained to use the machines in the factory, and comprised of people who's primary means of subsistence involves selling their labour to capitalists, lack of restrictions in certain areas that enable the capitalist to operate (mostly covered in capitalist property relations), the presence of restrictions in others that eliminate or discourage competition such as tariff barriers and regulations, and financial support from the government such as tax breaks, subsidies or contracts for public-private partnerships. I think its safe to say that these conditions aren't simply covered by saying that a country has more or less economic freedom.

Ultimately, its like if in the Organism Editor we had a slider that determined how "well evolved" or "complex" a creature's internal organs were, or a slider that determines where they are on a spectrum between herbivore and carnivore. It might be easier from a gameplay point of view, but you end up sacrificing so much of the realism and complexity that we are aiming for.
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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:34 pm

In fact, I tried to point out above that we were not using the preset government form system (i.e. where you choose from a list of preset government models). As you said, the player will be customizing the leadership branch and the legislature branches of his government, but the judiciary branch is not included as it has no effect in the gameplay. Courts are instead a building which boost stability in a city.

However, the whole system had to be simplified from real life's degree, simply because we would need to simulate whole society's on an incredibly detailed level for a very realistic model of government customization to appropriately fit in. So basically, you won't be able to customize the entire bureacracy/heirarchy of your government and every positions, it's powers, and its status, but you will be able to customize major things like the nation's leadership, governors (AI's that manage cities for you), and the legislature. You can name the title of your leader, and how they are chosen, etc. You can also name your government model, just for fun.

The sliders are broken down into the constituents you mentioned, except political is aggregated into the other three. It is true that this is not an accurate representation of real society, but again to actually go deeper than just having sliders would also require the society at large to be simulated to a greater degree of detail, for the government customization to be more in-depth, etc. and the game would just become too complex, difficult, and even hard to make.

I understand your point with the Organism Editor reference, but the different between adding complexity to the earlier stages and adding complexity to the later stages is that to the earlier stages the added complexity is largely passive. Making the organism mode more realistic doesn't really make it any more complicated for the player. However, with the strategy mode, making it more and more realistic requires active complexity, as in the player now is expected to design a whole political system from the ground up. Plus, the operations and mechanics of nature are far more easily documented and quantified than that of human interaction, so ultimately the evolutionary stages will of course be more of a scientific simulator, whereas the civilization stages will be more of just a strategy game that offers cool customization (like designing your own units, buildings, and vehicles) as well as fun elements from various different strategy genres (there is a dabble of city building from the Anno games, warfare from the total war and MB series, etc.). So, when designing the strategy mode, we ultimately do need to be more aware of the need to abstract real world phenomena into game features.

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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:04 am

Fair enough. I guess I may have gotten a bit carried away  :roll:.

Is there an agreed upon set of sliders yet, because I might have a few ideas.

Justice system: Retributive/Rehabilitative

Privacy: Privacy/Surveillance
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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:44 am

Don't worry, I've felt that way before, but I concluded otherwise.

The three freedoms sliders are social, economic, and religious, representing the freedom of the people of your nation in those three areas of society.

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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:01 pm

Are those all of the sliders, because it seems you could do a lot more. Is there a thread discussing it, because I have a few ideas that would increase the customisation and complexity of government systems, whilst still keeping it fairly simple.
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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:51 pm

Yes, those are the only sliders. If you want to make a suggestion you can post it here.

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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:01 pm

Ok I've been reading the posts on this thread and I havent seen any Ideas for Mercentile rebublics
+ Trading realations
- realations with Monarch or Dictatorships
+ 25% liberty
A leader system where a Doge is elected out of the Oldest members of a family
Capitilst goverment
leads to democratic Concil lead goverents or other republican goverment types
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NickTheNick
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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:31 am

Governments won't be categorized into preset models that the player picks, rather, the player will customize important elements of their nation's government. This is explained earlier in the thread, just last page.

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Pantheon_Gamer
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PostSubject: Re: types of government   Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:58 pm

NickTheNick wrote:
Governments won't be categorized into preset models that the player picks, rather, the player will customize important elements of their nation's government. This is explained earlier in the thread, just last page.
Your right...Just shows don't post after I just woke up sorry to wast your time reading my derpyness  :shock: 
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