Aquatic Sapience

I'm just curious - what, exactly, do we accomplish by defining 'aware?' It's safe to say that any organism with any sort of senses is able to respond to stimuli. Hell, bacteria do that with chemical receptors. It's not rocket surgery.

Based on my admittedly ancient understanding of the game's mechanics, I really like the "Sentience = Unlock your first Tech Object" definition, which I realized was the instinctual criterion I was using all along.

Since this always my drum to beat, I'll give it one more whack. With no metals, the best a 100% aquatic civ can accomplish is stone-age tech. Yes, they will be apex predators, and perhaps able to dominate the seas of their own planet, but they will have no way of leaving it.

I hate arguments from authority, but seriously, trust me. I've done the math, and won this debate dozens of times (online and with real humans) since the original Sven forums. You can't smelt iron in a deep-sea vent. No space mermaids.

Please.

Redstar wrote:

I'm just curious - what, exactly, do we accomplish by defining 'aware?' It's safe to say that any organism with any sort of senses is able to respond to stimuli. Hell, bacteria do that with chemical receptors. It's not rocket surgery.

Based on my admittedly ancient understanding of the game's mechanics, I really like the "Sentience = Unlock your first Tech Object" definition, which I realized was the instinctual criterion I was using all along.

Since this always my drum to beat, I'll give it one more whack. With no metals, the best a 100% aquatic civ can accomplish is stone-age tech. Yes, they will be apex predators, and perhaps able to dominate the seas of their own planet, but they will have no way of leaving it.

I hate arguments from authority, but seriously, trust me. I've done the math, and won this debate dozens of times (online and with real humans) since the original Sven forums. You can't smelt iron in a deep-sea vent. No space mermaids.

Please.

There will probably no sea creatures in the game cua you can't smelt iron in the Sea like you said

I don't know, we could have a civilization of otters. Except they live on land too, so I guess they don't count.

Pretty much nothing adapted for the deep sea seems to be built handily for making tools, except the octopus. If the octopus carries around a shaped bit of coral to pry shells open or something, it could equal stone age tech, but that's about as far as we go down there.

Yup. We've been over this a lot lately, that and the fact that I cannot just invent chemistry if we are to have realism, so H2O is the only water. Maybe we should put it in the manual.

Sorry to derail this a bit more, but seeing as this thread is now solved, I think we may continue in the stages discussion for a while.

The stages were split into Microbe, Multicellular, Aware, Awakening and so on. Originally, Microbe lasted as long as you controlled a single cell; as soon as your organism had two cells, it was in Multicellular, and this stage handled mostly simple cell colonies. The 'animal stage' was Aware, and the tribal one was Awakening.

It seems the stages' meanings have shifted quite a bit since, with Aware and Awakening now being redudant.

Commander Keen wrote:

Sorry to derail this a bit more, but seeing as this thread is now solved, I think we may continue in the stages discussion for a while.

The stages were split into Microbe, Multicellular, Aware, Awakening and so on. Originally, Microbe lasted as long as you controlled a single cell; as soon as your organism had two cells, it was in Multicellular, and this stage handled mostly simple cell colonies. The 'animal stage' was Aware, and the tribal one was Awakening.

It seems the stages' meanings have shifted quite a bit since, with Aware and Awakening now being redudant.

No, actually I think those definitions would simplify things greatly. The game can tell when an advance from one to the next happens, and even if not all the creatures in 'aware' are aware, we could always rename it 'fundamentally functional large-scale organic formations', but I think aware is more catchy.

And we can't exactly stop the player from learning, so making that a definition of a stage is meaningless.

If it has a nervous system that has a cortex, 'aware' is probably as good of a definition as we're going to get.

As opposed to a species with gills becoming sentient, could an amphibian-like race capable of both air and water breathing do metal work and such above water and make cities underwater? Just curious.

Gryphogrox wrote:

As opposed to a species with gills becoming sentient, could an amphibian-like race capable of both air and water breathing do metal work and such above water and make cities underwater? Just curious.

Yep. As long as you can survive for long amounts of time out of the water, you'll be able to use complex tools.

Sorry to deviate from the current subject but,


The Latin American civilizations hardly had any metallurgy and were by no means a large part of the civilization. Just look at the cultures, the Mayans and Aztecs didn't really even use metals other than gold and the Incas were barely into a copper age. I would say we could at least be able to get to that level of civilization, if not further in this stage underwater. We should probably review these cultures and see what is actually necessary for a civilization, I mean the Incas have no known WRITTEN LANGUAGE. Research into the Latin American civilization might be beneficial into understanding what makes a civilization.

Falthron wrote:

Sorry to deviate from the current subject but,


The Latin American civilizations hardly had any metallurgy and were by no means a large part of the civilization. Just look at the cultures, the Mayans and Aztecs didn't really even use metals other than gold and the Incas were barely into a copper age. I would say we could at least be able to get to that level of civilization, if not further in this stage underwater. We should probably review these cultures and see what is actually necessary for a civilization, I mean the Incas have no known WRITTEN LANGUAGE. Research into the Latin American civilization might be beneficial into understanding what makes a civilization.

That's very true. The Incas didn't have written language, but they did have an excellent accounting system. The point here is that electronics, rockets, very high technology, these things can't happen underwater. You can build very big things, create huge civilizations, but you can't escape the ocean and go onto land where these things are possible very easily.

Deploying necro in 3... 2... 1...
What if the creatures in question were reclaiming a planet that used to have advanced sapient life, but Anno 2070 happened? They would have all the resources available to build with. Need a forge? Find a bunch of mirror-like objects and a satellite dish or other parabolic object and build a parabolic reflector. They might even be given the tech by a space-faring race.

Sorry, didn't see the main topic. Carry on.

AlexaiZ wrote:

Deploying necro in 3... 2... 1...
What if the creatures in question were reclaiming a planet that used to have advanced sapient life, but Anno 2070 happened? They would have all the resources available to build with. Need a forge? Find a bunch of mirror-like objects and a satellite dish or other parabolic object and build a parabolic reflector. They might even be given the tech by a space-faring race.

That is considered uplifting. It is alredy said that it is perfectly possible and underwater civilizations are possible, but they need that uplift in order go over fire and metalurgy. Underwater space-faring civilizations are possible, but they need that uplift, they cant do it by themselves.

AlexaiZ wrote:

Deploying necro in 3... 2... 1...
What if the creatures in question were reclaiming a planet that used to have advanced sapient life, but Anno 2070 happened? They would have all the resources available to build with. Need a forge? Find a bunch of mirror-like objects and a satellite dish or other parabolic object and build a parabolic reflector. They might even be given the tech by a space-faring race.

If this is This is about underwater civilisations, there are threads on that topic. This isn't one of them, though it might as well be.
Also, it would be a good idea to duck, I think ~Scio might be about to fling his wrath in your direction for bringing up this topic again.

Anyway, getting technology from an older civilisation is basically the same as being uplifted (i.e. given their technology), which is a viable way to get advanced technology while being purely aquatic, as has been said before.
So, hooray… Underwater civilisa-

The relevant thread and main discussion can be found here: Implementing Underwater Civilisations.

The Uteen wrote:

AlexaiZ wrote:

Deploying necro in 3... 2... 1...
What if the creatures in question were reclaiming a planet that used to have advanced sapient life, but Anno 2070 happened? They would have all the resources available to build with. Need a forge? Find a bunch of mirror-like objects and a satellite dish or other parabolic object and build a parabolic reflector. They might even be given the tech by a space-faring race.

If this is This is about underwater civilisations, there are threads on that topic. This isn't one of them, though it might as well be.
Also, it would be a good idea to duck, I think ~Scio might be about to fling his wrath in your direction for bringing up this topic again.

Anyway, getting technology from an older civilisation is basically the same as being uplifted (i.e. given their technology), which is a viable way to get advanced technology while being purely aquatic, as has been said before.
So, hooray… Underwater civilisa-

The relevant thread and main discussion can be found here: Implementing Underwater Civilisations.

I'm so sorry. I didn't see that topic. Please hide me.

BastianKraft wrote:

*facepalm

QFT

Not to be harsh, but why would you respond to someone from a conversation that took place a year ago, to a person who hasn't posted since a year ago, and who hasn't even visited this site for 10 months now, at least under that account?

NickTheNick wrote:

Not to be harsh, but why would you respond to someone from a conversation that took place a year ago, to a person who hasn't posted since a year ago, and who hasn't even visited this site for 10 months now, at least under that account?

yep, that is strange.
i didn't noticed date
(aka: one QFT more)

Perhaps you could evolve out of aquatic stage, then once you've evolved to the point of advanced tech you can start to research a branch of the skill tree (or similar, whatever's to be developed). say it starts with basic rafts, then boats, then bigger boats, proper ships (ya know, the metal kind), then another branch that goes into submersibles then upgrades for them, such as drills, torpedoes, etc. and then you get into basic domes or something similar, and you go from there.

Basically the point of this is to mine for underwater ores and minerals.
say, you need some form of crystal to research lasers, and most of that type of crystal is found underwater, so you'd have to go underwater to get them.

jay sheddan wrote:

Perhaps you could evolve out of aquatic stage, then once you've evolved to the point of advanced tech you can start to research a branch of the skill tree (or similar, whatever's to be developed). say it starts with basic rafts, then boats, then bigger boats, proper ships (ya know, the metal kind), then another branch that goes into submersibles then upgrades for them, such as drills, torpedoes, etc. and then you get into basic domes or something similar, and you go from there.

Basically the point of this is to mine for underwater ores and minerals.
say, you need some form of crystal to research lasers, and most of that type of crystal is found underwater, so you'd have to go underwater to get them.

And what's wrong with wooden ships?

In any case, your argument seems to be that a creature could leave the water in order to "evolve to the point of advanced tech," at which point, the sentient species would no longer be underwater. I get what you're saying, with the possibility of drilling for oil, and there is the recurring sci-fi concept of those little underwater hamsterballs that allow for places like the gungan city, but as far as most species would be concerned, the complications of moving their civilization back underwater would outweigh the benefits. Ores and minerals that are currently underwater are no different from those that are underground, except for the fact that they are harder to obtain, and it is likely that most societies would have to advance very far technologically in order for undersea deposits to be worth their time to obtain.

P.S. Necropost is necro.

i come again with what we finally decided at the original thread:

acuatic sapience is possible, but you cannot develop an underwater civilization (at least in terms of advanced technology and reaching space). you could however, if your race was amphibian or it would be uplifted by another advanced race.

unless that, you're pretty much locked to something akin to "the little mermaid", with underwater buildings and maybe animals adapted to work as some tools but not much from that, sorry.

i proposed another aproach but it was too much sci fi so it wouldnt work on thrive, basically was extreme eugenetics based in neoteny and domestication, thus allowing underwater races to breed living tools and other devices from living things around them (like weapons made from mollusks or living buildings made from anemones, things like that).

going extreme that should allow to make "bioships", but as i said, too much fantastic for being adde to Thrive...