Miscellaneous Bugs And Questions That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

ido66667 wrote:

As relativity you can't pass the speed of light...

You don't pass it, you just go very near to it.

@Silver, in answer to the first part of your post, we will only have one galaxy, and we have a thread in which we came up with how big it and the planets in it should be, taking into consideration many things. Making multiple galaxies isn't intended in-game, and new saves start in a different location within the existing galaxy.

Time travel: If we can work out a system for recording every interaction which happens in the galaxy (as observed by the player, the rest is randomised when they see it), then we would be able to rewind through them to get back to a previous point in gameplay. Alternatively, we could create intermittent saves which are seen as one in-game, and can be switched between for time travel. Finally, we can periodically save everything which has changed in the galaxy, and add it to the save file.

So, each can have a different system, depending on which we choose:

1. If we record every action in the galaxy, we can go back to the past, perform an action, then return to the future as the reality the player knew, with the exception of the changes made. This is similar to the system used in the game Achron, and is pretty complicated. When you go back, the game undoes actions since the destination time, and redoes them when returning to the present, but keeping any changes to your previous actions. This works with actions performed in the future, too.
Any paradoxes, like destroying things which are about to create a unit, will just not make the unit. If that unit is the one that went back in time and destroyed the thing that created it, we have a paradox. We could either let it happen, or just make the unit spontaneously combust before it destroys the thing. We could also have time waves, and blatantly copy Achron entirely, but not a good idea.

2. Intermittent saves. This will quickly cause large amount of data being used, but will allow a simple system of going back in time. All realities can be returned to. Works in the same way as manual period saves, so very simple, but very inefficient.
Going to the future initiates supergalactic-auto-evo.

3. We can record everything which has changed, and append them to the game save. This is a bit different to the recording every action, because when you go back, you basically ditch the reality as you knew it, and start a new one, since this is basically regressing to a previous save.
A way to explain this is a bar of chocolates. You start with one row of chocolate. As you advance, another row gets added, every now and then. These chocolates are the changes that have happened since the previous save. When you go back, you just snap off a few rows and eat them, returning the chocolate bar to a previous state. The game cannot recreate the previous chocolate bar from this, just continue adding new chocolate until the same amount of chocolate is there. But different chocolate to the original chocolate.
Again, going to the future initiates supergalactic-auto-evo.

supergalactic-auto-evo - super-auto-evo on a galactic scale.
super-auto-evo - rapid auto-evo done to update a planet when the player visits it, so auto-evo doesn't have update the whole galaxy simultaneously, for those unfamiliar.

Opinions?

The Uteen wrote:

@Silver, in answer to the first part of your post, we will only have one galaxy, and we have a thread in which we came up with how big it and the planets in it should be, taking into consideration many things. Making multiple galaxies isn't intended in-game, and new saves start in a different location within the existing galaxy.

Time travel: If we can work out a system for recording every interaction which happens in the galaxy (as observed by the player, the rest is randomised when they see it), then we would be able to rewind through them to get back to a previous point in gameplay. Alternatively, we could create intermittent saves which are seen as one in-game, and can be switched between for time travel. Finally, we can periodically save everything which has changed in the galaxy, and add it to the save file.

So, each can have a different system, depending on which we choose:

1. If we record every action in the galaxy, we can go back to the past, perform an action, then return to the future as the reality the player knew, with the exception of the changes made. This is similar to the system used in the game Achron, and is pretty complicated. When you go back, the game undoes actions since the destination time, and redoes them when returning to the present, but keeping any changes to your previous actions. This works with actions performed in the future, too.
Any paradoxes, like destroying things which are about to create a unit, will just not make the unit. If that unit is the one that went back in time and destroyed the thing that created it, we have a paradox. We could either let it happen, or just make the unit spontaneously combust before it destroys the thing. We could also have time waves, and blatantly copy Achron entirely, but not a good idea.

2. Intermittent saves. This will quickly cause large amount of data being used, but will allow a simple system of going back in time. All realities can be returned to. Works in the same way as manual period saves, so very simple, but very inefficient. Going to the future initiates supergalactic-auto-evo.

3. We can record everything which has changed, and append them to the game save. This is a bit different to the recording every action, because when you go back, you basically ditch the reality as you knew it, and start a new one, since this is basically regressing to a previous save.
A way to explain this is a bar of chocolates. You start with one row of chocolate. As you advance, another row gets added, every now and then. These chocolates are the changes that have happened since the previous save. When you go back, you just snap off a few rows and eat them, returning the chocolate bar to a previous state. The game cannot recreate the previous chocolate bar from this, just continue adding new chocolate until the same amount of chocolate is there. But different chocolate to the original chocolate. Again, going to the future initiates supergalactic-auto-evo.

Those are the methods of doing it I can think of, gameplay-and-program-wise.

The records will be a huge mess, It is not really Program - wise, Just reload your saves!
Also, Super galactic auto evo will crash the avrage computer.
And, The things that the player made in the past could have tons of effect, We can't just do a game that kills the people's computer.

Silver Sterling wrote:

ido66667 wrote:

As relativity you can't pass the speed of light...

You don't pass it, you just go very near to it.

Oh, Yes, It will happen, I said it already.
And how are you Planing to get near the speed of light?
I mean, You can get a partical near the speed of light, But not huge objects, Like spaceships, Ect.

ido66667 wrote:

The records will be a huge mess, It is not really Program - wise, Just reload your saves!
Also, Super galactic auto evo will crash the avrage computer.
And, The things that the player made in the past could have tons of effect, We can't just do a game that kills the people's computer.

The game Achron managed the action-recording system very well, it can work if done correctly.
Supergalactic-auto-evo will just be very, very slow.
None of these ideas will kill the computer, unless we mess it up completely.

The Uteen wrote:

ido66667 wrote:

The records will be a huge mess, It is not really Program - wise, Just reload your saves!
Also, Super galactic auto evo will crash the avrage computer.
And, The things that the player made in the past could have tons of effect, We can't just do a game that kills the people's computer.

The game Achron managed the action-recording system very well, it can work if done correctly.
Supergalactic-auto-evo will just be very, very slow.
None of these ideas will kill the computer, unless we mess it up completely.

Do you really want slow loading time?

And in the same time really break tonf of stuff anf create paradoxes?

ido66667 wrote:

The Uteen wrote:

ido66667 wrote:

The records will be a huge mess, It is not really Program - wise, Just reload your saves!
Also, Super galactic auto evo will crash the avrage computer.
And, The things that the player made in the past could have tons of effect, We can't just do a game that kills the people's computer.

The game Achron managed the action-recording system very well, it can work if done correctly.
Supergalactic-auto-evo will just be very, very slow.
None of these ideas will kill the computer, unless we mess it up completely.

Do you really want slow loading time?

And in the same time really break tonf of stuff anf create paradoxes?

Only the first has any chance of paradoxes, and that is indeed one of the negative points of that option. However, it has the benefit of a very good kind of time travel in gameplay terms, and if the paradoxes are dealt with in the code, there won't be a problem. However, if you would rather suggest we use another option, please do, that was the reason I made several suggestions.

Do you know a way of simulating time travel to the future without simulating the passage of time? If not, the computer will indeed have to do some calculations for a bit.

EDIT: Hang on, this deserves its own thread. We need a poll. Continue discussion here!

EDIT2: Nevermind…

The Uteen wrote:

ido66667 wrote:

The Uteen wrote:

ido66667 wrote:

The records will be a huge mess, It is not really Program - wise, Just reload your saves!
Also, Super galactic auto evo will crash the avrage computer.
And, The things that the player made in the past could have tons of effect, We can't just do a game that kills the people's computer.

The game Achron managed the action-recording system very well, it can work if done correctly.
Supergalactic-auto-evo will just be very, very slow.
None of these ideas will kill the computer, unless we mess it up completely.

Do you really want slow loading time?

And in the same time really break tonf of stuff anf create paradoxes?

Only the first has any chance of paradoxes, and that is indeed one of the negative points of that option. However, it has the benefit of a very good kind of time travel in gameplay terms, and if the paradoxes are dealt with in the code, there won't be a problem. However, if you would rather suggest we use another option, please do, that was the reason I made several suggestions.

Do you know a way of simulating time travel to the future without simulating the passage of time? If not, the computer will indeed have to do some calculations for a bit.

EDIT: Hang on, this deserves its own thread. We need a poll. Continue discussion here!

EDIT2: Nevermind…

Nope, I don't have a way.
The problem is not about the code, it is about minimal realism...

BTW, THe calculations you are talking about, is not only some, It may be huge Calculations... That on old P.c. it may cause the game to crash.
And on newer once, It will just be A VERY long loading time.

I there will ever be a time travel in this game (what should be implemented, AFTER the first version of the game has been finished), i would still prefer the idea of quantum (alternative) realities.

1. I don't even know, if its possible to simulate a pradox. The time line would be altered and if its the same time line as before, how should the game calculate what happend in the time from the change and the new future. This might be work by Achron, what i heard, its way simplier as Thrive. And it was just a game play element. How ido66667 told, i'am afraid that there is no usefull way to go in the future. The game can only calculate from your own timeline. That this is actually this, what will be changed. And i don't know, if the game would be ever be able to play the game handling how you play it in a complete different scenario. Otherwise we would have to fear, that the computer would really become self aware.

2. What happend if you create a paradox where the trigger you drived in the past will not exist? You woudn't go back in time and we have a paradoxon.

So for me i would be happy to see a system with parallel realities for time travel sometime.

But to make this working, it would be only work with some limitations:

1. You can't drive back in time in your own reality. All back time travel would create an alternate reality.

2. A way to travel back in your own timeline would only work in the time you left it, or its future. Because you would be there, the game could calculate the development. But this will indeed need a simplier calculation algorithm to safe calculation time. Otherwise it would become very slow.

4. The problem would be indeed also the saving of the past. So how i mentioned it shoudn't be a coninues saving of the acting. Only episodes should work better. And the game shouldn't save everything aswell. A believable past would be nice, but i don't think we need one, where every stone and every create is direct on the same play it has been in the past.

5. I suggested the temporal anchors who aren't more as a simply record of your initial reality or eventuall you can set them in another reality, is that you can travel back to the place you left. To keep it simple it could be the quantum signature of yourself, so you can only have one and so only one anchor. Eventually you could also create a dimensional vortex (connection between the place you are and the temporal anchor place.

This is was i worked out for a good working complex and halfway useful way for time traveling, without breaking every law we can find.

But if the concept will make it in the game, it should be make it only after the final game has released. We need something we can show so early how possible. The game can be embroidered later aswell, when we have a working version. And its not a feature who will be necessarily for the final game.

Silver Sterling wrote:

I there will ever be a time travel in this game (what should be implemented, AFTER the first version of the game has been finished), i would still prefer the idea of quantum (alternative) realities.

1. I don't even know, if its possible to simulate a pradox. The time line would be altered and if its the same time line as before, how should the game calculate what happend in the time from the change and the new future. This might be work by Achron, what i heard, its way simplier as Thrive. And it was just a game play element. How ido66667 told, i'am afraid that there is no usefull way to go in the future. The game can only calculate from your own timeline. That this is actually this, what will be changed. And i don't know, if the game would be ever be able to play the game handling how you play it in a complete different scenario. Otherwise we would have to fear, that the computer would really become self aware.

2. What happend if you create a paradox where the trigger you drived in the past will not exist? You woudn't go back in time and we have a paradoxon.

So for me i would be happy to see a system with parallel realities for time travel sometime.

But to make this working, it would be only work with some limitations:

1. You can't drive back in time in your own reality. All back time travel would create an alternate reality.

2. A way to travel back in your own timeline would only work in the time you left it, or its future. Because you would be there, the game could calculate the development. But this will indeed need a simplier calculation algorithm to safe calculation time. Otherwise it would become very slow.

4. The problem would be indeed also the saving of the past. So how i mentioned it shoudn't be a coninues saving of the acting. Only episodes should work better. And the game shouldn't save everything aswell. A believable past would be nice, but i don't think we need one, where every stone and every create is direct on the same play it has been in the past.

5. I suggested the temporal anchors who aren't more as a simply record of your initial reality or eventuall you can set them in another reality, is that you can travel back to the place you left. To keep it simple it could be the quantum signature of yourself, so you can only have one and so only one anchor. Eventually you could also create a dimensional vortex (connection between the place you are and the temporal anchor place.

This is was i worked out for a good working complex and halfway useful way for time traveling, without breaking every law we can find.

But if the concept will make it in the game, it should be make it only after the final game has released. We need something we can show so early how possible. The game can be embroidered later aswell, when we have a working version. And its not a feature who will be necessarily for the final game.

Tons of timelines = Tons of galaxies in one save = Huge loading times.

ido66667 wrote:

Tons of timelines = Tons of galaxies in one save = Huge loading times.

Actually not tons, yust two. So if you travel back in time, a new timeline will be created and you can't only went back in this timeline the anchor is. This could be your qantum signature. So there will be only the 2 timelines, you can reach. The one youre in and the second you're anchor is in. So the game doesn't need to save the other timelines. Only the past of this two timelines.

Guys Sciocont already said no time travel. Now I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure by no time travel he meant no time travel.

Atm it seems more like a controversial about letting time paradox happen or not. But indeed i think we should let this topic rest. We can still argue about this, when the first version of the game is out. And i think everything how it could be made and how it couldn't be made has said already.

ido66667 wrote:

Tons of timelines = Tons of galaxies in one save = Huge loading times.

Actually, no it doesn't. Your save file would get very large (saving the state of every planet at any given time), but your loading time would be just as fast as any other. It might as well create another save file for that alternate reality.

Quote :

Actually, no it doesn't. Your save file would get very large (saving the state of every planet at any given time), but your loading time would be just as fast as any other. It might as well create another save file for that alternate reality.

Oh, this is nice to hear. So additional savegames would be nice aswell as standard futures. So you can experiment a bit around. Only problem i see is, that everything is running in one huge galaxy. Ok, could be something for a additional mode when the game is done.

The time travel stuff would be nice as endgame ability how told already. But it still depends if the lead developer want it or not, who is ~sciocont. And at the moment we have a clearly no.

But well i read the first thread about the time travel concept and it was quite a mess.

I don't believe its possible to travel trough time and even change a small detail. Also a small change could have a very huge effect* and even override the reason or the possibilty to drive back in time for you. This will indeed lead, that i personally don't want time travel without a parallel reality in the game.

*In chaos theory, there is a concept known as "sensitive dependence on initial conditions" most peoples call it the "Butterfly Effect".

Thats the reason i suggested the alternate realities. In them, you woudn't be present and its a new clean reality and the game can calculate it how it wants. How it works AND IF its in, is a thing of the lead developers.

So a short closing statement and i think we are done now. Everything else would be a run in circles now and this doesn't help.

So i for myself will stop taking part in the time discussion from now on. Do we have another topic to discuss, to get away from the topic now? How about ponies?
Oh ok, we had this already also.

Silver Sterling wrote:

Quote :

Actually, no it doesn't. Your save file would get very large (saving the state of every planet at any given time), but your loading time would be just as fast as any other. It might as well create another save file for that alternate reality.

Oh, this is nice to hear. So additional savegames would be nice aswell as standard futures. So you can experiment a bit around. Only problem i see is, that everything is running in one huge galaxy. Ok, could be something for a additional mode when the game is done.

The time travel stuff would be nice as endgame ability how told already. But it still depends if the lead developer want it or not, who is ~sciocont. And at the moment we have a clearly no.

But well i read the first thread about the time travel concept and it was quite a mess.

I don't believe its possible to travel trough time and even change a small detail. Also a small change could have a very huge effect* and even override the reason or the possibilty to drive back in time for you. This will indeed lead, that i personally don't want time travel without a parallel reality in the game.

*In chaos theory, there is a concept known as "sensitive dependence on initial conditions" most peoples call it the "Butterfly Effect".

Thats the reason i suggested the alternate realities. In them, you woudn't be present and its a new clean reality and the game can calculate it how it wants. How it works AND IF its in, is a thing of the lead developers.

So a short closing statement and i think we are done now. Everything else would be a run in circles now and this doesn't help.

So i for myself will stop taking part in the time discussion from now on. Do we have another topic to discuss, to get away from the topic now? How about ponies?
Oh ok, we had this already also.

I think that Complete choas theory simulation is kind of hard to do... You know Choas theory is math, To simulate that, we first need Maybe A Ph.D mathematian, than we need to Program the whole thing, But maybe we can make a partial simulation...

But I am glad to hear that we can do time travel without slow loading times.

But if Scio said, we need to listen to him.

As I said, no time travel. The non-technical reason is that I subscribe to the Novikov self-consistency principle, which is the insanely simple and obvious idea that you can't alter any past events because they've already happened. Going back into your own timestream was an event that was predated by other events, possibly the ones you'd already laid in place in the past. The point is, you can't go back in time and kill Hitler, because nobody killed Hitler.

Apart from this, I think it would be a pain in the Belgium to add into the program, and a feature that isn't really very useful to players.

Git, aka the source code manager you're already using does exactly this. You have the ability to rewind the code and start from there.

It's the same concept.

roadkillguy wrote:

Git, aka the source code manager you're already using does exactly this. You have the ability to rewind the code and start from there.

It's the same concept.

I'd rather not worry about including this, though, seeing as it's relativistically impossible. It's good to know that we have an option for rewinding code. I guess that's just something that I was taking for granted. Also, I'm really happy to see you posting a lot again. Enough OT though. Can we close this discussion on time travel?

roadkillguy wrote:

Git, aka the source code manager you're already using does exactly this. You have the ability to rewind the code and start from there.

It's the same concept.

Also, Roadkill, we got a new git repo, Look for Revolutionary-games/thrive, and ask seregon to give you rights and all.

~sciocont wrote:

roadkillguy wrote:

Git, aka the source code manager you're already using does exactly this. You have the ability to rewind the code and start from there.

It's the same concept.

I'd rather not worry about including this, though, seeing as it's relativistically impossible. It's good to know that we have an option for rewinding code. I guess that's just something that I was taking for granted. Also, I'm really happy to see you posting a lot again. Enough OT though. Can we close this discussion on time travel?

Yup.

Have we discussed the possibility of your race being the first spacefaring species? I have a few ideas if we have not.

Good question, what i heard is, that the game will generate the galaxy, when you visit it. So normaly you shouldn't encouter some species if you haven't been in the space already, because they haven't generated. Possible that they include some random encounters like in Spore. I personally would like to see a option where you can config at start (and possible also in the running game), how this will be handled. If they only fly by, be a thread or woudn't appear at all.
Another question about higher development is also, how do the other species develop on the same planet. In Spore everything is waiting for the player until he evolves. So you can take so much time as you want. But in the real development other species would develop also in fast time. So if you aren't the fastest, you could get some real trouble, for the case you want to become the dominant species.
Aswell an option how fast other can develop should be nice aswell. That the game isn't to slow for very good players, and not to fast for the not so good players, our just players, who want to take a bit more time in some specific state and don't want to hurry.

Silver Sterling wrote:

Good question, what i heard is, that the game will generate the galaxy, when you visit it. So normaly you shouldn't encouter some species if you haven't been in the space already, because they haven't generated. Possible that they include some random encounters like in Spore. I personally would like to see a option where you can config at start (and possible also in the running game), how this will be handled. If they only fly by, be a thread or woudn't appear at all.
Another question about higher development is also, how do the other species develop on the same planet. In Spore everything is waiting for the player until he evolves. So you can take so much time as you want. But in the real development other species would develop also in fast time. So if you aren't the fastest, you could get some real trouble, for the case you want to become the dominant species.
Aswell an option how fast other can develop should be nice aswell. That the game isn't to slow for very good players, and not to fast for the not so good players, our just players, who want to take a bit more time in some specific state and don't want to hurry.

This has been mentioned before, in various posts. The AI can develop more quickly than the player by default. However, it should be possible to switch this off.

I agree an 'AI evolution & tech advancement rate' slider would be good. It would allow very different gameplay experiences in combination with the difficulty slider.
(At the lowest advancement rate, you could (possibly) become a space-faring race, completely alone in the universe. Now that would be interesting. An ultimate Sandbox Mode…)

The Uteen wrote:

Silver Sterling wrote:

Good question, what i heard is, that the game will generate the galaxy, when you visit it. So normaly you shouldn't encouter some species if you haven't been in the space already, because they haven't generated. Possible that they include some random encounters like in Spore. I personally would like to see a option where you can config at start (and possible also in the running game), how this will be handled. If they only fly by, be a thread or woudn't appear at all.
Another question about higher development is also, how do the other species develop on the same planet. In Spore everything is waiting for the player until he evolves. So you can take so much time as you want. But in the real development other species would develop also in fast time. So if you aren't the fastest, you could get some real trouble, for the case you want to become the dominant species.
Aswell an option how fast other can develop should be nice aswell. That the game isn't to slow for very good players, and not to fast for the not so good players, our just players, who want to take a bit more time in some specific state and don't want to hurry.

This has been mentioned before, in various posts. The AI can develop more quickly than the player by default. However, it should be possible to switch this off.

I agree an 'AI evolution & tech advancement rate' slider would be good. It would allow very different gameplay experiences in combination with the difficulty slider.
(At the lowest advancement rate, you could (possibly) become a space-faring race, completely alone in the universe. Now that would be interesting. An ultimate Sandbox Mode…)

Maybe we can make a slider, and a check box, If you uncheck it, The Advancement rate is zero and the slider becomes gray.

I think it would be pretty cool to be the 1st spacefaring race. Its like being the vanguard of evolution.