Thrive Game Development
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Thrive Game Development

Development of the evolution game Thrive.
 
HomeHome  PortalPortal  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Welcome new and returning members!
If you're new, read around a bit before you post: the odds are we've already covered your suggestion.
If you want to join the development team, sign up and tell us why.
ADMIN is pleased to note that this marquee has finally been updated.
ADMIN reminds you that the Devblog is REQUIRED reading.
Currently: The Microbe Stage GUI is under heavy development
Log in
Username:
Password:
Log in automatically: 
:: I forgot my password
Quick Links
Website
/r/thrive
GitHub
FAQs
Wiki
New Posts
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Statistics
We have 1675 registered users
The newest registered user is dejo123

Our users have posted a total of 30851 messages in 1411 subjects
Who is online?
In total there are 33 users online :: 0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 33 Guests

None

Most users ever online was 443 on Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:41 pm
Latest topics
» THIS FORUM IS NOW OBSOLETE
Ontogeny (Growth) Emptyby NickTheNick Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:26 pm

» To all the people who come here looking for thrive.
Ontogeny (Growth) Emptyby NickTheNick Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:22 pm

» Build Error Code::Blocks / CMake
Ontogeny (Growth) Emptyby crovea Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:28 pm

» Hello! I can translate in japanese
Ontogeny (Growth) Emptyby tjwhale Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:23 pm

» On Leave (Offline thread)
Ontogeny (Growth) Emptyby NickTheNick Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:20 am

» Devblog #14: A Brave New Forum
Ontogeny (Growth) Emptyby NickTheNick Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:49 am

» Application for Programmer
Ontogeny (Growth) Emptyby crovea Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:14 am

» Re-Reapplication
Ontogeny (Growth) Emptyby The Creator Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:57 pm

» Application (programming)
Ontogeny (Growth) Emptyby crovea Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:00 am

» Achieving Sapience
Ontogeny (Growth) Emptyby MitochondriaBox Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:03 pm

» Microbe Stage GDD
Ontogeny (Growth) Emptyby tjwhale Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:44 pm

» Application for Programmer/ Theorist
Ontogeny (Growth) Emptyby tjwhale Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:56 am

» Application for a 3D Modeler.
Ontogeny (Growth) Emptyby Kaiju4u Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:16 am

» Presentation
Ontogeny (Growth) Emptyby Othithu Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:38 am

» Application of Sorts
Ontogeny (Growth) Emptyby crovea Sun May 31, 2015 5:06 pm

» want to contribute
Ontogeny (Growth) Emptyby Renzope Sun May 31, 2015 12:58 pm

» Music List Thread (Post New Themes Here)
Ontogeny (Growth) Emptyby Oliveriver Thu May 28, 2015 1:06 pm

» Application: English-Spanish translator
Ontogeny (Growth) Emptyby Renzope Tue May 26, 2015 1:53 pm

» Want to be promoter or project manager
Ontogeny (Growth) Emptyby TheBudderBros Sun May 24, 2015 9:00 pm

» A new round of Forum Revamps!
Ontogeny (Growth) Emptyby Oliveriver Wed May 20, 2015 11:32 am


 

 Ontogeny (Growth)

Go down 
+3
PortalFan1000
NickTheNick
~sciocont
7 posters
AuthorMessage
~sciocont
Overall Team Lead
~sciocont


Posts : 3406
Reputation : 138
Join date : 2010-07-06

Ontogeny (Growth) Empty
PostSubject: Ontogeny (Growth)   Ontogeny (Growth) EmptyWed Aug 21, 2013 10:16 pm

Wow, it's been a while since I began a new thread.
Ontogeny refers to the patterns of organismal growth, and is something that we currently have no plan to implement. We have no plane to implement it largely due to it's baffling complexity. For instance, a professor of mine, who is an expert in tyrannosaur ontogeny, has, from fossil evidence alone, compiled a list of hundreds or possibly thousands of changes in the tyrannosaur skeleton, based on a specimen pool that contains virtually no very young animals. This is an incredibly complex topic, and it's not something I want to fake in our game, which is why up to this point I've elected to ignore it entirely. 
The only method of faithfully representing ontogeny that I can think of would be forcing the player to model and define the transition specifically between every life stage, which would be beyond tedious and beyond complex. That's why I'd like to open up the floor. In this thread, I'd like any ideas on how to implement growth in organisms faithfully, reconciling:
-differential growth rates
-loss or development of structures
-computer generation of growth patterns
-evolution of growth patterns
-effects of growth patterns on fitness
-effects of growth on animation
-complete/incomplete metamorphosis

You needn't swoop in and solve these all at once (though that would be appreciated), so ideas on any of these topics (or ones that I've missed) are appreciated. I just want everyone to be informed on the subject.
Back to top Go down
NickTheNick
Overall Team Co-Lead
NickTheNick


Posts : 2312
Reputation : 175
Join date : 2012-07-22
Age : 28
Location : Canada

Ontogeny (Growth) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ontogeny (Growth)   Ontogeny (Growth) EmptyWed Aug 21, 2013 10:20 pm

Well for one thing, as I posted on the Crash Course Evolution thread, I think the best time to make ontogenical changes is while the player organism is asleep. I'll have more time later to give a more in-depth response, but if no one else posts by then, i'll just edit it into here I'll make a new post to keep this thread active.


Last edited by NickTheNick on Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
NickTheNick
Overall Team Co-Lead
NickTheNick


Posts : 2312
Reputation : 175
Join date : 2012-07-22
Age : 28
Location : Canada

Ontogeny (Growth) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ontogeny (Growth)   Ontogeny (Growth) EmptyThu Aug 22, 2013 12:56 pm

Okay, so I can't address any of these issues directly, but I do have some ideas on how to approach solutions to these problems. First of all, I would try to avoid as much as possible putting any of these into the behaviour editor, because that would mean we would have to come up with two systems. One system for how it will be implemented into the behaviour editor, and another for automating it among AI orgs. Also, letting the player decide would give a bit of an unbalanced position to the player, because they could simply decide that children would be born with the same physical capabilities and size of an adult. So for these reasons I think ontogeny should be kept out of the Behaviour Editor, out of the player's control, and up to the computer to decide.

I am also against the idea of metamorphosis past anything visual (such as colouring and/or texturing of the animal) because that would greatly complicate Auto-Evo and the Organism Editor. Instead of mutations just affecting, let's say, species X, it would have to affect each stage of growth of that species X independently.

What I think is viable is increasing the size of an organism as it grows, altering its appearance, and gradually giving it the abilities that an adult of its kind would have (like climbing, swimming, flying, etc.)
Back to top Go down
PortalFan1000
Learner
PortalFan1000


Posts : 104
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2013-07-18
Age : 24
Location : This plane of existence

Ontogeny (Growth) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ontogeny (Growth)   Ontogeny (Growth) EmptyThu Aug 22, 2013 7:54 pm

I am not in favor of playing as a infant ant-shark. Not only is it more complex, it also evokes memories of "learning" in spore. *shudders* Also, as accurate as this idea is, players might get annoyed at having to go through the same process every time they mate, unless it is planned to be 5 minutes in real time.
Back to top Go down
NickTheNick
Overall Team Co-Lead
NickTheNick


Posts : 2312
Reputation : 175
Join date : 2012-07-22
Age : 28
Location : Canada

Ontogeny (Growth) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ontogeny (Growth)   Ontogeny (Growth) EmptyThu Aug 22, 2013 7:57 pm

Yeah, that's what I just said. The parts of ontogeny I think that would be good to include are the parts of physical growth, appearance changes, and "unlocking" abilities.
Back to top Go down
dinoman9877
Newcomer
dinoman9877


Posts : 92
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2012-06-08
Location : The Jurassic Period, fighting an allosaurus using a spear.

Ontogeny (Growth) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ontogeny (Growth)   Ontogeny (Growth) EmptyThu Aug 22, 2013 8:30 pm

I think we can dumb it down a bit to the point of 'metamorphosis'. Complete and incomplete.

Complete metamorphosis is basically a young animal, which looks nothing like the parent, growing and developing into the adult form. Most insects go through this.

Incomplete is when a baby is born looking like an adult. Mammals, reptiles, birds, etc.

Now, ~scio, you did say making the different life stages for an organism would be complex. The loophole is that if we used complete metamorphosis, the creature would only go through a few of these stages...or as many as the player would want. I just figured this could help. It allows the player to choose how they develop their species. If they want to be born a defenseless grub and grow up to be a deadly insect predator thing, all they have to do is design it. It could also bring up some new organs which could be specific to an individual only during that period in its life, such as silk or web making organs to make a cocoon with.

Just throwing in my ideas in.
Back to top Go down
penumbra espinosa
Learner



Posts : 139
Reputation : 5
Join date : 2010-09-10
Age : 32

Ontogeny (Growth) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ontogeny (Growth)   Ontogeny (Growth) EmptySat Aug 24, 2013 2:44 pm

dinoman9877 wrote:
I think we can dumb it down a bit to the point of 'metamorphosis'. Complete and incomplete.

Complete metamorphosis is basically a young animal, which looks nothing like the parent, growing and developing into the adult form. Most insects go through this.

Incomplete is when a baby is born looking like an adult. Mammals, reptiles, birds, etc.

Now, ~scio, you did say making the different life stages for an organism would be complex. The loophole is that if we used complete metamorphosis, the creature would only go through a few of these stages...or as many as the player would want. I just figured this could help. It allows the player to choose how they develop their species. If they want to be born a defenseless grub and grow up to be a deadly insect predator thing, all they have to do is design it. It could also bring up some new organs which could be specific to an individual only during that period in its life, such as silk or web making organs to make a cocoon with.

Just throwing in my ideas in.
you forgot amphibians, but yeah....
Back to top Go down
dinoman9877
Newcomer
dinoman9877


Posts : 92
Reputation : 1
Join date : 2012-06-08
Location : The Jurassic Period, fighting an allosaurus using a spear.

Ontogeny (Growth) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ontogeny (Growth)   Ontogeny (Growth) EmptySat Aug 24, 2013 3:57 pm

It was an example, dang it!
Back to top Go down
~sciocont
Overall Team Lead
~sciocont


Posts : 3406
Reputation : 138
Join date : 2010-07-06

Ontogeny (Growth) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ontogeny (Growth)   Ontogeny (Growth) EmptySat Aug 24, 2013 7:46 pm

Complete metamorphosis is easy, but how can we include it without a system for incomplete?
Back to top Go down
NickTheNick
Overall Team Co-Lead
NickTheNick


Posts : 2312
Reputation : 175
Join date : 2012-07-22
Age : 28
Location : Canada

Ontogeny (Growth) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ontogeny (Growth)   Ontogeny (Growth) EmptySat Aug 24, 2013 7:50 pm

But then with metamorphosis, auto-evo has to evolve each one independently, in a way that keeps them consistent, which I think would be a terrible pain in the Belgium to code or even plan out.
Back to top Go down
NikolaAnicic007
Newcomer



Posts : 54
Reputation : -34
Join date : 2013-02-03

Ontogeny (Growth) Empty
PostSubject: Ontogeny Idea   Ontogeny (Growth) EmptySun Aug 25, 2013 6:08 am

Isn't this determined by how much protein the creature gets,the amount of energy it has,how it uses the energy (Like does it grow or become wider)
And I think that if a player makes a change in the size of the creature (Height,With,etc.) It would slowly be implemented into the creature like...1 or 5% Per Year or Per Month and if he makes radical changes (We should define radical to the computer (maybe 40% of the mass?)) It would be even less (like 0.1% or a little bigger)

This is probably not even close to what you are saying but In my opinion any size is the effect of the atmosphere (It limits growth)

If you have more air your creatures can have more effective lungs and grow larger (the limit of growth is larger)
Today we have less air than 160 million years ago so we have a smaller growth limit (So most creatures are about 1m tall (The limit is the size of an elephant or giraf (On Land) and a blue whale in water)

This might be off topic entirely but then again
Idk :L
So...
I apologize ahead :I
Back to top Go down
NickTheNick
Overall Team Co-Lead
NickTheNick


Posts : 2312
Reputation : 175
Join date : 2012-07-22
Age : 28
Location : Canada

Ontogeny (Growth) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ontogeny (Growth)   Ontogeny (Growth) EmptySun Aug 25, 2013 10:33 am

Evolutionary changes take effect immediately upon the birth of the next generation, and the compound system, and the availability of compounds will limit the size and development of organisms naturally.
Back to top Go down
Immortal_Dragon
Regular
Immortal_Dragon


Posts : 425
Reputation : 19
Join date : 2013-06-18
Age : 31
Location : Throne of the Immortal Dragon

Ontogeny (Growth) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ontogeny (Growth)   Ontogeny (Growth) EmptySun Sep 01, 2013 8:01 am

Okay, so we have at least an outline of what will happen to simulate growth. How is the game going to determine how long it will take to reach the certain stages of development? Especially since the year is planned to only be 4 days long on the player's planet with (possible) variation.
Back to top Go down
NickTheNick
Overall Team Co-Lead
NickTheNick


Posts : 2312
Reputation : 175
Join date : 2012-07-22
Age : 28
Location : Canada

Ontogeny (Growth) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ontogeny (Growth)   Ontogeny (Growth) EmptySun Sep 01, 2013 3:44 pm

Outline? We don't have an outline for it yet. So far we just know what we want as the end result.
Back to top Go down
Immortal_Dragon
Regular
Immortal_Dragon


Posts : 425
Reputation : 19
Join date : 2013-06-18
Age : 31
Location : Throne of the Immortal Dragon

Ontogeny (Growth) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ontogeny (Growth)   Ontogeny (Growth) EmptySun Sep 01, 2013 4:06 pm

Sorry, that's just how I word things, the plan is just a concept, I know, my bad.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content





Ontogeny (Growth) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ontogeny (Growth)   Ontogeny (Growth) Empty

Back to top Go down
 
Ontogeny (Growth)
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Natural Population Growth Simulation/Prototype

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Thrive Game Development :: Development :: Design :: Evolution-
Jump to: