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| Early Multicellular - The current concept | |
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+3~sciocont kaosrain Pezzalis 7 posters | |
Author | Message |
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Pezzalis Regular
Posts : 260 Reputation : 6 Join date : 2010-08-07
| Subject: Early Multicellular - The current concept Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:29 pm | |
| Early Multicellular begins as soon as your single celled organism is able to bond with another cell of your species. Gameplay will be much the same as single celled stage (Eat single celled and other multicellular organisms for energy, attain enough energy to reproduce) except you will control an entire colony of cells. OE will allow you to re-arrange your colony, when the cells begin to specialize. Fist things first, you will need to understand this: RedStar's Microbe stage Concept- Spoiler:
Cell Stage Gameplay =================
At the beginning of the game, the player will take control of a single-celled, prokaryotic organism. It will be in one of the following shapes, at random: *Sphere *Rod *Comma *Spiral
The shape of the cell will not initially affect movement.
The player's environment is the "organic soup", a murky screen populated by floating proto-cellular structures. AI proto-cells may include: 1) Wrigglers - Worm-like creatures that move quickly around the screen; assimilating them grants the player a flagellum 2) Writhers - Small globular creatures that move quickly around the screen by rippling cilia on their body; assimilating them grants the player cilia 3) Squirmers - Crescent-shaped creatures that move by undulating themselves up and down like a pair of wings; assimilating them grants the player lamellipodes 4) Squishers - Glob-shaped creatures that move in an amoeba-like fashion, by wriggling their cytoplasm; assimilating them grants the player the ability to move in this way and engulf other cells. 5) Shiners - Small spherical creatures that drift and emit a pale colored light whenever they absorb amino acids; assimilating them grants the player a bioluminescent dot that shines when they feed 6) Clone-Stickers - Tiny globs with a hollow spike (like a hypodermic) that inject their reproductive material into other cells, causing them to die and be replaced by another sticker. Assimilating them grants the player a pilus (hypodermic spike) that can create clones of the player cell in this manner. 7) Poison-stickers - Tiny globs with a hollow spike (like a hypodermic) that inject toxic material into other cells, causing them to die and dissolve into edible material. Assimilating them grants the player a pilus (hypodermic spike) that injects poison. 8 ) Defenders - Tiny capsules that resist being absorbed by cells; assimilating them grants the player an antiphagocytic capsule which defends them from being absorbed by other cells by producing an outer coating of enzyme "slime" 9) Producers - Blobs that cluster around rich regions of the soup, transforming the amino acids into proteins. Assimilating them grants the player double nourishment from absorbing Amino Acids, and allows damaged cell components to be replaced. 10) Dissolvers - Blobs that cluster around proteins and reduce them to amino acids. Assimilating them grants the player double nourishment from absorbing Protein, and allows cells with Walls to be consumed. 11) Eaters - Small globes that absorb proteins and other cells, converting them to energy for reproduction; assimilating them grants the player Mitochondria, which allows them to "eat" carbohydrates. 12) Light-eaters - Small discs that reproduce automatically while exposed to light; assimilating them grants the player Chloroplasts, which transform light into nourishment (carbohydrates) 13) Heat-eaters - Small blobs that reproduce automatically when exposed to heat; assimilating them grants the the player Thermoplasts, which transform heat into nourishment (carbohydrates) 14) Cookers - Small spheres that release enzymes which break down proteins and cells into amino acids; assimilating them grants the player Lysosomes, which give double nourishment from consuming Cells 15) Holders - Hollow membranes that encase whatever molecules they come in contact with; assimilating them grants the player Vacuoles, which can store material to be digested, or compartmentalize harmful substances (like poison or injected reproductive material). 16) Platers - Solid "plates" that reproduce by absorbing proteins; assimilation grants the player Cell Walls, which form a protective barrier around the cell. In silicone-rich environments, these may be 1.5x as hard to puncture/engulf (as they utilize silicate crystals). 17) Gluers - Globs that create a sticky enzyme that can glue cells together. Assimilating them grants the ability to bond with other cells of your type. 18) Sharers - Elliptic Cells which can exchange DNA with other cells, and after division acquire half of that cells traits. Assimilating them gives you the ability to exchange DNA (Early Sexual Reproduction)
Camera angle is locked at a top-down angle on the Z axis; the player can move freely in the X and Y axes. For the first few moments of the game, cell movement will be limited to drifting, with player able to choose direction by clicking. At this point, the objective for the player is to absorb other cells' structures by engulfing certain numbers of them.
Initially, the "soup" is populated with random variants of the AI proto-cells. There should be several different models of every proto-cell for the game to choose from; these will then have their color palette randomly shifted in every new game to create many different-looking proto-cells.
Some cells will be more common than others. This could be determined by the planet environment (IE. a hot planet has more Heat Eaters, a brighter star will give more Light Eaters etc)
The player's GUI will include a "Nourishment Meter" which will empty at a given rate, and fill as the player consumes proto-cells and other cells. AI cells in the environment will be absorbing proto-cells as well, causing them to become increasingly complex. The player may engulf them by approaching them, provided they are large enough and have the appropriate structures. Initially, they only yield nourishment based on their size, and any structures within them will break down into globs of protein, which are rejected by the player's cell. As the player gains new cell parts, they may gain the ability to digest proteins or carbohydrates produced by other cells.
Every cell, including AI cells, has a Nourishment Meter. Whenever a cell's Nourishment Meter remains filled for a given amount of time, that cell will reproduce. Its offspring will be exactly identical to the parent. If the player cell reproduces, it will release an AI cell of the same type into the environment; cells of similar type to the player's cell will not attack it. If this cell assimilates any new cell structures, it is considered a different species, and will become hostile to the player.
After a given number of organelles are assimilated (exact number TBD), the player will have to assimilate more and more of a given type of proto-cell in order to assimilate it.
When a player's cell absorbs a given number of #17 - Gluers (Which could be quite rare to give a lengthy microbe stage), it gains the ability to "stick" to other cells of its kind, forming cellular colonies. At this point, the player can become a multicellular organism by bonding with as many cells of its type as possible.
However It will only be able to replicate the whole colony if it has assimilated enough #19 - Sharers, so the player must assimilate enough sharers before entering Multicellular stage.
Early Multicellular stage: - Spoiler:
So we have pretty much mutually decided that you are multicellular when your cells begin joining together. (Assimilating lots of Gluers which contain an organelle which produces a bonding enzyme). Strength in numbers is beneficial. So basically we have a colony of cells. At first there will be two. Camera is the same as Microbe, locked vertically. You are free to move along X and Y axis by clicking on the background, but you now have the option to dive up or down by using the mouse scroll wheel. (Like flOw for anyone whose played it). The camera will continuously zoom out to account for the size of your colony. - The Uteen wrote:
When you zoom in, there should be a limit (to stop you seeing lack of detail, and to stop you going stupidly over-zoomed). As your colony gets bigger, you can zoom in less, so as the cells become less and less visible, the gameplay becomes more like the multicellular one, with the arrow keys allowing feeble wriggling of the colony (an attempt at swimming, basically the colony begins to act as a whole), and the cells become less customisable (each of those things you absorb in single-cell can no longer be absorbed, you can't change cell positions, etc.). Other AI cell colonies will also be forming, and could even see your colony as a source of food. Things beneath you cell should appear blurred and out of focus (Or maybe not present if your cell is unable to sense them - Chemunication? I know thats not a word :P), things above you cell could occasionally flash across the screen or, if your cell has an eyespot, dim the screen when they pass over. Energy and MovementYour main priority is to attain energy for movement, reproduction and growth. There are several ways to acquire energy, and how you go about it depends on what you did in microbe stage. ~If you assimilated lots of Heat-Eaters (#13) you will be Thermosynthetic. You must find areas of heat intensity to acquire energy. Multicellular structures will need to be discussed. Surface area:Volume ratio of thermosynthetic cells should be efficient for heat transfer. Heat sensitive cells are likely to form (Cue infa-red vision developing) ~If you assimilated lots of Light-Eaters (#12) you will be Photosynthetic. You must find areas of light intensity. You are likely to evolve 'branches' of cells surrounded by specialist chlorophyll-rich cells (Like leaves). Light sensitive organelles in cells are likely to become more specialized and become 'eye spots', allowing a more clear depiction of light levels (Possibly meter on the screen showing when you are in a light intense area). ~If you assimilated lots of Eaters (#11) you will be an organism that utilizes a form of cellular respiration (Animals/Fungi/Anything that 'Eats'). If you are a Respiratory organism you must attain energy by consuming other organisms. You are likely to evolve a string of organisms which form a ring around prey and then break them down internally with excreted enzymes. Later tube like organisms could form allowing food to be pushed by long strings of cells (Like tentacles) into an area of specialist cells which break down the food. Waste products are expelled at the rear. (Things like a Hydra may form) Movement: (Iffy) In Microbe: Assimilate lots of Flagella-boasting cells, you end up with a tail in early org mode like a fish, cillia gives lots of tiny legs or tentacles, pseudopod makes you like a worm/slug. Its far from realistic but easier to include in the game. ReproductionIn order to reproduce, true multicellular organisms must solve the problem of regenerating a whole organism from germ cells. The division of the colony rather than individual cells can only be done if you have assimilated enough #19) Sharers. One of your colony cells early on in Multicellular will be your 'sharing' cell. This sharing cell is essentially your cells gamete (Egg/Sperm). The Sharing cell will have to make contact with another sharing cell of a different colony of the same species (Cue early mating) in order to produce a zygote. Before you can reproduce the entire colony, individual cells must divide until you have the full cell count for that generation (Number TBD). Individual cells will only divide when you acquire enough energy. When you have enough cells, the sharing cell will be ready for reproduction. This new zygote will then divide several times until it is a new colony with elements from the parent colonies (Which early on will be pretty much the same). You will then take control of this colony. DeathIf you do not acquire enough energy due to lack of food, a majority of your colonies cells are lost/destroyed, or your sharing cell is destroyed you will die (Note that you will be able to increase your share cell count to make your species less vulnerable). As you can no longer contribute to the next generation, you will restart at the beginning of the one you died in. The structure of your colony may be slightly different. Cell Specialization *UPDATED*This section is still a bit iffy but recently several sparks of ideas, sketches, simplification of real life systems and processes has led me to the following. Whether this section will be handled manually or by auto evo (TBD), this is what we have so far. Specialized cells in early Multicellular gameplay will be different to those of single celled gameplay. As of now, here is a big old list of the types of cells that can form (Or be placed) in your colony. Locomotive cells:Cells that have certain organelles that specialize in movement. Pseudopodia:Cells that can change their shape to allow movement IE. Amoeba, White blood cells. Types/Functions of Pseudopodia: Creepers: Allow slug like movement at a low energy cost for surrounding/attached cells. + Slow Localized movement - Small ATP Engulfers: Can break off from the colony and 'engulf' any parasitic or harmful cell in the organism by Phagocytosis (Basically a fundamental white blood cell). +Immune response, or increases health/disease resistance. - Small ATP Ciliates:Round cells covered in hundereds of small, fine thread-like cilia. Types/Functions of Ciliates: Beaters - Cilia beats to allow motion to the cell and cells within a radius attached to it., but it is not as effective as Wrigglers. + Medium Localized movement - Medium ATP Pushers - When lining a small tube-section of a colony, they can beat to push food along the tube. + Digestive efficiency + Function - Medium ATP Flagellates:Egg-shaped cells with a long, mobile whip like thread called a Flagella. Types/Functions of Flagellates: Wrigglers - The flagella is beat back and forth to allow motion to the cell and cells within a radius attached to it. + Fast localized movement - Large ATP Anglers - The flagella is covered in an adhesive substance and can stick to food particles or prey and pull it towards the cell. + Energy from food + Function - Large ATP Physiological:Cells which deal with digestion, ATP production, waste, and metabolic functions. Secretory Cells:Longs vase shaped cells with an organelle at one end which secretes special fluids in the pointed direction. (Essentially gland cells). Types/Functions of Secretory Cells: Digesters: Secrete fluids/enzymes which break down food particles. + Function + Digestive efficiency Odourants: Secrete a fluid which repels larger organisms (Or organisms of a certain type) + Function - Medium ATP Chummers: Secrete a fluid which attracts smaller organisms (Or certain types of organisms) +Function - Medium ATP Absorbers:Grooved box-shaped cells (More surface area for diffusion) which absorb certain materials. Types/Functions of Absorbers: Eaters: Absorb all food material in a radius and convert it to ATP + Large ATP Breathers: ONLY in large colonies, absorb oxygen from outside of colony and transport to the interior cells for respiration. (At this scale it can be done under the hood, could be displayed as vein like structures forming) + Function + ATP gained from food Offensive and Defensive CellsAny cells concerned with the defense or offense of the colony. This section contains many different types of cells. Shield Cells: Tube shaped cells which are used defensively. Types/Functions of Shield Cells: Platers: Have a thick membrane which is very hard to break, can form shells when placed around other cells. + Colony Health/Defense + Function Stinging CellsContain a sub organelle called a cnida which can inject poison into any cell that touches it. Types/Functions of Stinging cells: Stingers: Inflict damage to all organelles in the victim cell. + Function - Medium ATP Dissolvers: Break down the inside of the victim cell for digestion + Function - Medium ATP Paralyzers: Immobilise the victim cell. + Function - Medium ATP Sensory CellsThese are cells which account for senses such as heat, light, chemicals etc Eye cells: Sensitive to light, give the player a light sensor and a wider FOV, and a warning if the light becomes to dim (for photosynthetics) or too intense. + Light Sensor Thermo cells: Sensitive to heat, give the player a heat sensor and a warning system if the temperature is too cold or too hot. + Heat sensor pH Cells: Sensitive to extreme pH levels, be they low or high. Adds a warning system. +Chemical sensor Nerve cells: A very simple version of a nerve cell, gives the colony a sensitivity to large vibrations in the water. Can help increase awareness of larger organisms. + Presence awareness bar Reproductive Cell(s)The aforementioned 'Sharing Cell' has undergone some modifications. Hormone CellWhen the colony is old enough, the hormone cells will activate, releasing hormones into the surrounding area. These hormones will attract another of your species with which you can mate sexually. At this stage (if your colony is small enough) you can also asexually reproduce, by 'budding' you mating cells, forming colonies identical to your current one. Why you'd do this, I don't know. I guess if you can't find a mate or if you are close to death. Mating/Sharing CellsThese mating cells, when active will be able to exchange DNA with other mating cells as long as they are the same species. If your colony has more than one mating cell they can asexually reproduce. If you have released hormones to attract a mate you can sexually reproduce with them by connecting the mating cells and activating them. When the two cells are together they will fuse (Giving the full chromosome number) and form what is essentially a zygote. Depending on whats happening with Auto-Evo or the OE, Auto-Evo: This zygote will divide, and as it does so it will offer certain traits such as "Increase Plater Thickness" Or "Increase Plater Count", giving you various options to add or decrease certain traits/cells to your liking. OE: Your colony will be opened up in the colony editor when you have specialized cells. (Because they have different functions, placement actually matters). Here you can spend "Diversity Points - (A number determined by how many times your whole colony died, how many cells in your colony died, and basically the population size of your species and thus the likeliness of mutations) on things such as new cells, new traits, and improvements of existing cells. Ok. SO its not really 100%. There is HEAPS to add, and heaps to work out and simplify for effective gameplay. You will notice that I have seriously stripped down the types of cells and left out many key functional cells. This is because a lot of them can be done behind the scenes and/or later in the game when you are not viewing them at a cellular level (Things such as nervous systems or muscle cells). I have also given them names that the common gamer can associate with a function as opposed to the full on confusing scientific names. I have sorted them under a not-so-good type setting as opposed to function (IE Flagellates as opposed to Movement cells). Microscopic BiomesThese biomes are based around earthly Planktic ecosystems. Plankton on earth are defined by their niche rather than their classification, so I think that this early multicellular stage could be done quite easily with different variations of a pelagic, planktonic ecosystem. What if at the start of each game, you start in a randomly selected (or a chosen) pelagic biome? You start there as a prokaryote and can leave when you enter full-3D organism mode. (Could be tropical, freshwater, polar, etc and different global locations and water types will determine different niches). Heres an example: - Spoiler:
Tropical Pelagic
- Where: The Pelagic zone, in tropical waters (Open water, close to surface, far from shore)
- Elevation: 0-200m below sea level.
- Resoruces: Salt water
- Climate: Tropical
- Topography: None, too small to survive deep water pressures, just open water.
- Biodiversity: Large
- Niches for autotrophs:
Phytoplankton Autotrophic, prokaryotic organisms that live near the water surface where there is sufficient light to support photosynthesis. (Like diatoms, cyanobacteria etc). (Anything that has assimilated lots of Light Eaters, and is single celled) Scale: Single celled - Tiny/Miniscule (Invisible/green goop to anything larger than a small organism)
- Trophic levels for heterotrophs:
Protozoic Zooplankton - protozoans that feed on phytoplankton and other protozoic zoolplankton. Scale: Single celled - Tiny/Miniscule (Invisible to anything larger than a small organism)
Metazoic Zooplankton - Multicellular planktic organisms that feed on Protozoic Zooplankton and Phytoplankton. Scale: Tiny (1-20cm)
Small Feeders - Feed on Metazoic Zooplankton Scale: Small (20-100cm)
Large Feeders - Carnivores which feed on Small feeders, some filter feeders, and each-other. Scale: Midsize-Large
Filter Feeders - Feed on all planktic life-forms. Scale: Midsize-Gargantuan (Like manta-rays, Basking sharks and Whales).
- Others: This is a primary Biome, and can be selected as the first biome that a single celled organism will begin in. When you enter full-3D organism stage, you will not of course be able to see the single celled organisms. Phytoplankton density will appear as a green goop, small metazoic zooplankton will appear as small moving white specs (Like krill).
We will probably need to make quite a few for varied early gameplay. The 2D - 3D Transition and Template organismsThere will be a set number of cells (At this point there probably won't be individual cells but your creature will be divided into cell clusters with functions as far as game mechanics go) that when you pass it you will go from 2D -3D. So if your something like a daphnia, you will go from seeing it like this: - Spoiler:
To this: - Spoiler:
The Transition:- Spoiler:
Template Orgs: A couple generations before you reach the 2D-3D cell cap, the game could determine the main shape, movement, energy production and structural material (Ie lots of platers around the exterior of the colony or no platers but lots of stingers), of the colony, and relate it to one of our template orgs. We would have to make a whole batch of template orgs for all the possible combinations, which with crowd-sourcing would probably not be too hard (200-500..?) So for something like the above Daphnia: Shape: Round - Egg if we are being extraspecific Movement: Contractile Muscle Cells (Muscle cells will form from large areas of other movement cells - not altogether scientific but function-wise it will work and it will be done 'behind the scenes' when individual cells are phased out). Energy production: Respiration Materials: (Probably represented as a ratio of parts determined by the Share code) Now from all these factors, perhaps the game could pick the closest match out of our 3D template organisms and during the next few generations phase in features from them? Then when you go full 3D you more or less assume their shape? Specialized Cell Density - OE PartsAt this point there probably won't be individual cells but your creature will be divided into cell clusters with functions. Or in simpler terms, these cell clusters turn into parts. I'm thinking that in order for this to work we will need to assemble a Cellular Tree. Much like the research/tech tree. Heres an example: -> Assimilate 10 Light eaters -> Gain Eyespot (Light sensor, increase FOV) -> Have 10 eyespot cells in same area -> Gain Eye cup (Directional Light sensor, Increase FOV) -> Have 10 Eyecups Linked to nervous mass -> Gain Eye (Much larger FOV, Nearby Org indicator, etc) This way perhaps certain areas of functional cells could phase into functional parts? (Still needs work). And then, this. - Bashinerox wrote:
- As the amount of cells increases into to the hundreds, the camera continues to zoom out, and behind the scenes, the multiple cells get turned into a single entity. This entity has a single bone that is of length 0.
You have officially entered the 3D Organism stage.
~Things To Be Discussed~ - The Cellular Tree - OE/Auto-Evo - How? - More specialized cells - Important ones - Brains and Nervous systems - When? | |
| | | kaosrain Newcomer
Posts : 58 Reputation : 3 Join date : 2010-11-21 Age : 25 Location : Dead frontier and civilization revolution
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:07 pm | |
| I think we should change the set number for 3d depending on the planet size, or not | |
| | | Pezzalis Regular
Posts : 260 Reputation : 6 Join date : 2010-08-07
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:40 am | |
| - kaosrain wrote:
- I think we should change the set number for 3d depending on the planet size, or not
Not quite sure what you mean? Basically when you pass a certain cell count/part count/mass etc your organism will be analyzed and related to its closest template organism. Over the next few generations, features of this organism will phase in, and it will be here where the camera is allowed slightly more freedom with each generation. When you have assumed the template organisms form, the camera is full 3D. Planet size won't really have much to do with it... | |
| | | kaosrain Newcomer
Posts : 58 Reputation : 3 Join date : 2010-11-21 Age : 25 Location : Dead frontier and civilization revolution
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:53 am | |
| what about bones? also what about swimming thermosinthesisers,how do we represent colors? i think the more close you get to the 3d part the less diversity points you get
Last edited by kaosrain on Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:55 pm; edited 2 times in total | |
| | | ~sciocont Overall Team Lead
Posts : 3406 Reputation : 138 Join date : 2010-07-06
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:56 am | |
| Excellent work on this. I've just read Wikipedia's entry on this, and it looks like we're right on track with it. The transition from these into template organisms seems to be the tricky part here. | |
| | | The Uteen Sandbox Team Lead
Posts : 1476 Reputation : 70 Join date : 2010-07-06 Age : 28 Location : England, Virgo Supercluster
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:44 pm | |
| - Pezzalis wrote:
Basically when you pass a certain cell count/part count/mass etc your organism will be analyzed and related to its closest template organism. Over the next few generations, features of this organism will phase in, and it will be here where the camera is allowed slightly more freedom with each generation. When you have assumed the template organisms form, the camera is full 3D. The reason we are using template organisms is to allow the the colony to become 3D without it getting too complicated, right? So that we don't have to make a program to make colonies 3D. But there will be some variables, right? I wont want to lose things in this process. Also, diversity points? Aren't they used in the editor..? What have they got to do with this, and why less? That sentence has confused me a bit... Anyway, nice concept. I think early multicellular deserves a new section, and I remember someone else saying the same. Are we agreed on this? Can we summon ADMIN from his mysterious home, a quarry in Wales? | |
| | | kaosrain Newcomer
Posts : 58 Reputation : 3 Join date : 2010-11-21 Age : 25 Location : Dead frontier and civilization revolution
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:01 pm | |
| bones are specialised cells i just discovered
| |
| | | ~sciocont Overall Team Lead
Posts : 3406 Reputation : 138 Join date : 2010-07-06
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:14 pm | |
| - The Uteen wrote:
- Can we summon ADMIN from his mysterious home, a quarry in Wales?
Some say he once peeled 157 oranges underwater, and that he lives in a quarry... in Wales. All we know is, he's called ADMIN. | |
| | | R136a1 Newcomer
Posts : 32 Reputation : 3 Join date : 2011-02-14 Location : Middle of Nowhere, USA
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:45 am | |
| Just dropping in to say that I like the concept so far. I'm still not a huge fan of the unicellular concept, but I suppose it works.
Also, I really, really think we should use auto-evo for early multicellular. If we used manual editing, it'd make for a rough transition from this stage to the next. It'd almost be like going into early multicellular saying to the player, "hey, you can edit your organism now!" and then after the transition to multicellular, saying, "whoops, you can't do that anymore! Sorry!" It just doesn't work very well. | |
| | | ~sciocont Overall Team Lead
Posts : 3406 Reputation : 138 Join date : 2010-07-06
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:14 pm | |
| - R136a1 wrote:
- Just dropping in to say that I like the concept so far. I'm still not a huge fan of the unicellular concept, but I suppose it works.
Also, I really, really think we should use auto-evo for early multicellular. If we used manual editing, it'd make for a rough transition from this stage to the next. It'd almost be like going into early multicellular saying to the player, "hey, you can edit your organism now!" and then after the transition to multicellular, saying, "whoops, you can't do that anymore! Sorry!" It just doesn't work very well. I agree with this actually. Makes sense not to give, then take away. | |
| | | Pezzalis Regular
Posts : 260 Reputation : 6 Join date : 2010-08-07
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:01 pm | |
| Forgive me for missing it if its been concluded, but what is going on with Auto-Evo VS OE?
Are they optional? (IE you can choose between the two) Or is OE unlocked with God tools? I was never sure!
P.S: Guess we need to discuss how Colonies could be constructed automatically then! | |
| | | caekdaemon Newcomer
Posts : 88 Reputation : 0 Join date : 2010-10-27
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:09 pm | |
| - ~sciocont wrote:
- The Uteen wrote:
- Can we summon ADMIN from his mysterious home, a quarry in Wales?
Some say he once peeled 157 oranges underwater, and that he lives in a quarry... in Wales. All we know is, he's called ADMIN.The Stig. I have the same question as Pezz, does the player get to edit their race? | |
| | | ~sciocont Overall Team Lead
Posts : 3406 Reputation : 138 Join date : 2010-07-06
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:23 pm | |
| - caekdaemon wrote:
- ~sciocont wrote:
- The Uteen wrote:
- Can we summon ADMIN from his mysterious home, a quarry in Wales?
Some say he once peeled 157 oranges underwater, and that he lives in a quarry... in Wales. All we know is, he's called ADMIN.The Stig. I have the same question as Pezz, does the player get to edit their race? I think It's best to have the absorption system do all of the evolving until you get specialized cells. | |
| | | Pezzalis Regular
Posts : 260 Reputation : 6 Join date : 2010-08-07
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:30 pm | |
| - ~sciocont wrote:
- caekdaemon wrote:
- ~sciocont wrote:
- The Uteen wrote:
- Can we summon ADMIN from his mysterious home, a quarry in Wales?
Some say he once peeled 157 oranges underwater, and that he lives in a quarry... in Wales. All we know is, he's called ADMIN.The Stig. I have the same question as Pezz, does the player get to edit their race? I think It's best to have the absorption system do all of the evolving until you get specialized cells. Yes, for Microbial we are following the endosymbiotic theory. At multicellular (When you get specialized cells) we are teetering between OE and Auto Evo. | |
| | | Pezzalis Regular
Posts : 260 Reputation : 6 Join date : 2010-08-07
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:46 pm | |
| OK So we more or less have all the basics down. Now we need to determine how we can turn it into game-play.
Food and Energy I think we should go with a depleting energy bar that slowly empties when you don't find food. When you eat/photosynthesize, the bar replenishes depending on the food you ate, your way of eating it (A digestive efficiency stat/perk will be tagged to specialized cells/parts) etc. If the bar empties, some of your colonies cells will begin to die, some will function less efficiently, your colony will essentially be fatigued. You will only have a short amount of time to find food before you die.
Death and Damage Cells will sustain damage if their cell membrane is broken, if subject to toxins or if broken off from the colony. Cells will die when they do not receive enough energy, or sustain too much damage. When more than 20% of your cells die, your entire colony will perish, and you will begin from the start of the generation. As a visual indicator to the player, a cell count could be given on the GUI. It will increase or decrease according to the amount of cells in the colony. This area still needs work.
Reproduction Needs work.
Evolutionary Growth Like Uteen suggested, the camera will continue to zoom out to account for the size of your colony, and phase out details of smaller cells. There will be a limit to how far you can zoom in so your hard drive doesn't implode from rendering hundreds of cells. Eventually as you get larger, clusters of cells will be 'transformed' into a single entity rather than several. The different clusters will be determined by what that area of cells can do. If its an area of hardened cells, it will be turned into a hard cluster, or a shell. If its an area of light sensitive cells, it will be turned into a light sensitive cluster. These clusters will all have their own cell count relative to the whole colonies cell count. If they are damaged, the cell count will be reduced by the magnitude of damage to that cluster.
IE if a cluster has 100 cells, and it is damaged 20% by a toxin, then 20 cells will be lost.
If you have 30 clusters each with 100 cells (Number could vary), your cell count is 3000. At this stage this value could be dumbed down to represent health points or be shown in the current complex damage system, but that area needs a bit of work.
Thats my brain dump for today. If I find more time, more shall come. If you have your own ideas or criticisms, please share | |
| | | ~sciocont Overall Team Lead
Posts : 3406 Reputation : 138 Join date : 2010-07-06
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:39 pm | |
| Everything sounds good, pezz. | |
| | | Mysterious_Calligrapher Biome Team Lead
Posts : 1034 Reputation : 26 Join date : 2010-11-26 Age : 32 Location : Earth, the solar system, the milky way...
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:11 pm | |
| Reproduction - will get back to you on that. Might even be able to dig out my bio notes... Basically, it's kind of complicated. I'll dump some info on you in the next few days if I have time, but there are several stages, and several variations, for several types of creatures, including sponges, jellies, hydras, etc.
Other than that, I want to point out that breaking apart can be good for a colony - if the cells aren't very specialized. The broken-off chunk can become a new colony if both chunks have all the cell groups necessary for survival. So, very simple forms this is good for, more complicated forms (such as jellies) this is bad for. | |
| | | The Uteen Sandbox Team Lead
Posts : 1476 Reputation : 70 Join date : 2010-07-06 Age : 28 Location : England, Virgo Supercluster
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:10 pm | |
| Good ideas, but there are a few comments from self-proclaimed Sgt. Negativity Z. Moan-a-lot. I'm not sure about the energy bar, in late multicellular the current interface uses glowing coloured shards, could we use them to keep it consistent? It's one less thing to transition, and bars have already been done thousands of times before.
A cell count... Would that be a health equivalent? Would it be a bar? Or worse, the old thing of '393/5143 remaining!'? Well, there's the good old health shard we could use, a good idea of your health in a single glance. And what's worse, did you just say... Health points?
Turning over to Prof. Positive, I like the sound of clustering the cells into 'parts'. Would this maybe be accompanied by the arrival of the complex damage indicator? (As a reminder to whoever, the idea was to click the shard, game pause, and each part's health is represented by colours) It seems a good place to bring it in, when the game starts to create the 'parts'. Although would this be when it's still 2D? Well, it'd make it easier to bring in, by being a simple diagram. | |
| | | Pezzalis Regular
Posts : 260 Reputation : 6 Join date : 2010-08-07
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:33 am | |
| - The Uteen wrote:
- Good ideas, but there are a few comments from self-proclaimed Sgt. Negativity Z. Moan-a-lot. I'm not sure about the energy bar, in late multicellular the current interface uses glowing coloured shards, could we use them to keep it consistent? It's one less thing to transition, and bars have already been done thousands of times before.
A cell count... Would that be a health equivalent? Would it be a bar? Or worse, the old thing of '393/5143 remaining!'? Well, there's the good old health shard we could use, a good idea of your health in a single glance. And what's worse, did you just say... Health points?
Turning over to Prof. Positive, I like the sound of clustering the cells into 'parts'. Would this maybe be accompanied by the arrival of the complex damage indicator? (As a reminder to whoever, the idea was to click the shard, game pause, and each part's health is represented by colours) It seems a good place to bring it in, when the game starts to create the 'parts'. Although would this be when it's still 2D? Well, it'd make it easier to bring in, by being a simple diagram. Of course energy bars/health bars or the dreaded 'point' word are malleable enough to fit any kind of system we are going for so right now they don't really need to be finalized - assume 'bar' as any kind of visual indicator that we end up deciding on. I don't think we will ever have a fully 2D game space, like spores cell stage. I don't see why a player shouldn't be able to observe his colony in 3D with glowing red parts for damage. Or maybe I should go read the complex damage thread. BRB. People who hack Spore can put creature stage creatures in the cellular environment, and it works (Of course they appear as cell-sized). If we could have Huge 3D Organisms swimming past our little cell colonies it could really give a player their sense of scale. Thats why I propose that we have micro-biomes, where not only other cells or colonies but huge filter feeders are a potential predator. | |
| | | The Uteen Sandbox Team Lead
Posts : 1476 Reputation : 70 Join date : 2010-07-06 Age : 28 Location : England, Virgo Supercluster
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:39 am | |
| - Pezzalis wrote:
- The Uteen wrote:
- Good ideas, but there are a few comments from self-proclaimed Sgt. Negativity Z. Moan-a-lot. I'm not sure about the energy bar, in late multicellular the current interface uses glowing coloured shards, could we use them to keep it consistent? It's one less thing to transition, and bars have already been done thousands of times before.
A cell count... Would that be a health equivalent? Would it be a bar? Or worse, the old thing of '393/5143 remaining!'? Well, there's the good old health shard we could use, a good idea of your health in a single glance. And what's worse, did you just say... Health points?
Turning over to Prof. Positive, I like the sound of clustering the cells into 'parts'. Would this maybe be accompanied by the arrival of the complex damage indicator? (As a reminder to whoever, the idea was to click the shard, game pause, and each part's health is represented by colours) It seems a good place to bring it in, when the game starts to create the 'parts'. Although would this be when it's still 2D? Well, it'd make it easier to bring in, by being a simple diagram. Of course energy bars/health bars or the dreaded 'point' word are malleable enough to fit any kind of system we are going for so right now they don't really need to be finalized - assume 'bar' as any kind of visual indicator that we end up deciding on.
I don't think we will ever have a fully 2D game space, like spores cell stage. I don't see why a player shouldn't be able to observe his colony in 3D with glowing red parts for damage. Or maybe I should go read the complex damage thread. BRB. People who hack Spore can put creature stage creatures in the cellular environment, and it works (Of course they appear as cell-sized). If we could have Huge 3D Organisms swimming past our little cell colonies it could really give a player their sense of scale. Thats why I propose that we have micro-biomes, where not only other cells or colonies but huge filter feeders are a potential predator.
Okay, and I didn't realise colony would be 3D, I thought it would transition into it as you reach late. Well then, we can go straight to complex damage in all it's 3D glory! Would you be able to see the cells of these huge 3D organisms, when you're still quite small? That'd be cool, seeing the edge of a colony of billions. That would be a sense of scale, if we could have that in the background. | |
| | | Mysterious_Calligrapher Biome Team Lead
Posts : 1034 Reputation : 26 Join date : 2010-11-26 Age : 32 Location : Earth, the solar system, the milky way...
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:56 am | |
| Filter feeders = love. In the words of the Krill from Finding Nemo, "Swim Away! Swim Away!" And this is the reproductive dump for you, because I have time and no inclanation to move or speak spanish after that final I just came back from. A la Jellyfish: Potentially the most complicated way to get new organisms, ever. - Spoiler:
- Male reproductive cells are released into the water, where they float until they come into contact with the eggs a female organism holds. Much like fish spawning, come to think of it. - Fertilized eggs are stored in pouches of the female organism. I suppose they could be left somewhere, alternatively. - Jellyfish larvae detatch themselves from their mother's body (or wherever they are anchored,) as little free-swimming planulae. It lookes like an oval with cilia, though it's really multiple cells. I would imagine that this is a pretty basic form, should we wish to have an army of jellyfish equivalents. - The weird part: Planulae go looking for a hard surface to anchor to and then become polyps. Yes, you heard me, polyps. These polyps have little arms and a mouth to procure food, and behave a lot like any other polyp or anemone. Except for the forming a new polyp from it's trunk and creating a colony interconnected by feeding tubes. - Over time, once contidions are right, a colony begins to have grooves and the topmost grove detatches itself, forming an ephyra. No word yet on whether the next groove also does this and so on, or whether the polyp colony is just parked there for the rest of eternity. - Ephyra matures into Medusa, wich is a mini-jelly, and then into an adult jelly.
A La Hydra (a.k.a. asexual reproduction and sexual reproduction, for one confused critter.) - Spoiler:
- Right conditions = an excess of food. This stimulates the hydra to start making a clone of itself, by budding. Eventually, the bud develops to a pont where it detatches and becomes its own hydra. - in harsh conditions, they reproduce sexually, with hydras that develop simple male organs releasing free-swimming gametes into the water to fertilize hydra that develop simple female organs. Hydras, however, are hermaphrodites and may produce either or both organs at once. The eggs of this union develop a protective outer shell that sheilds them after their host parent dies. Once the adult dies, the eggs lie dormant until conditions are favorable to hydras once more. Basically, hydras only "do it" if they're about to die.
A la sponge (they, like hydra, can reproduce both ways, but have three methods of asexual reproduction, making me even more confused. The sponges are not confused, because they have no neurons and thus do not think.) - Spoiler:
- Method 1: get torn to bits - not as painful as one might think. Sponges are fragile, but a colony only needs a handfull of cells to survive, provided it has the necessary kinds. It re-attatches to the ocean floor and re-establishes itself as a mini-sponge colony. It needs the following types of cells, however: collencytes: allow it to attatch itself, archeocytes: the sponge version of stem-cells, which can produce any other kind. - Method 2: Budding - We've been over this before. - Method 3: Gemules - sponge survival pods. Basically, it's a little dormant bundle of sponge, produced when the main colony is dying, often protected by reinforcements and sometimes containing photosynthesizing symbionts. It waits in the shadows - *ahem* - remains dormand until conditions are favorable once more. - Sexual reproduction of the sponge: another sea-going hermaphrodite, sponges hold male gametes in cysts (no, really. That's what they're called,) and transform their progenitor cells, archaeocytes, into female gametes. Each egg consumes nurse cells, giving it a "yolk," and are fertilized by ingesting the male cell in the same manner. - larvae: are starting to sound familiar. Little ovaloid balls with an outer layer using cillia... they swim for days before they sink to the seabed, exhausted, and anchor themselves. most cells transform into archaeocytes, and the process of building up a functioning sponge begins.
Yeah. I don't envy whoever codes reproduction for this stage one bit. | |
| | | The Uteen Sandbox Team Lead
Posts : 1476 Reputation : 70 Join date : 2010-07-06 Age : 28 Location : England, Virgo Supercluster
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:23 am | |
| I saw a documentary about jellyfish. They are weird. And all of the 'grooves' separate to form jellyfish. And the fact these can then eat, grow, and split too, while producing more and more jellyfish... It's like there's two different creatures in its DNA. This isn't just the worst reproductive system to attempt to include ever, it also means we need the option in the organism editor to make all these stages of growth, and the weird form of splitting they use.
...I'm surprise more creatures don't use this form of reproduction, though. The offspring not only make loads of jellyfish each, but they can reproduce too! Overpopulation = dominance of ecosystem = extinction of competition. The only reason they aren't completely dominant is the fact they're slightly lacking in everything else. They're like the animal form of Microsoft.
Also, I'd forgotten cell used layers. It wont happen again. But what sort of 3D will colony be using? Late, or microbial? Or a weird yet interesting combination? | |
| | | Mysterious_Calligrapher Biome Team Lead
Posts : 1034 Reputation : 26 Join date : 2010-11-26 Age : 32 Location : Earth, the solar system, the milky way...
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:54 am | |
| Well, there are the arguments that I would make about it being much harder to copy more complexity, leading to jellyfish being overabundant but overall pretty simple life. Coding this wouldn't be too hard - okay, the coding itself would bite the belgium, but I assume that of all coding beyond that required to play tetris - because what you need is a few conditions tags. For example, stage one of the jellies requires a large concentration of jellies in one spot. As far as the stalks just popping off more baby jellies goes, there's an evolutionary disadvantage to asexual cloning, and it really doesn't work for much more complex organisms (except when conditions are very right.) Bottom line is, they all use combination reproduction, so we probably should have that option somehow. Probably. Even if it makes us all hate the non-existent guts of the jellyfish...
Oh dear. I tend to leave the graphics aspect to those who know better, so I couldn't tell you, Uteen. I'm leaning towards the "unholy hybrid" option though, because we tend to do that. | |
| | | Pezzalis Regular
Posts : 260 Reputation : 6 Join date : 2010-08-07
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Wed May 18, 2011 2:44 am | |
| Putting jellyfish mating procedures aside for a single post,
Im going to have a crack at creating a prototype for microbial -> Colony stage in game maker. I am an absolute cab with most complex script based programming so Im not exactly the person to be making a pre alpha for this stage with the actual engine/openGL/more advanced programming tools, so Im just seeing how the gameplay will function, and also because I found a whole bunch of free time lying under my bed, and Im bored | |
| | | Mysterious_Calligrapher Biome Team Lead
Posts : 1034 Reputation : 26 Join date : 2010-11-26 Age : 32 Location : Earth, the solar system, the milky way...
| Subject: Re: Early Multicellular - The current concept Sat May 21, 2011 11:48 am | |
| Good. Let us all know how it turns up, okay? | |
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