Explosive Defense Mechanism

How far do you guys go into the defense mechanisms of animals?
Do we put in things like an Inkt Sac for underwater creatures?
Is it possible to evolve some sort of small explosion like the Bombardier beetle? It's effective, but I think it would be hard to evolve because it is done with chemicals, hydroquinones and hydrogen peroxide, the last one is thought to be in the immune system, so it may already be in the game. Is it possible to do this in the game?
Here's a text from wikipedia.

Defense mechanism

Secretory cells produce hydroquinones and hydrogen peroxide, which collect in a reservoir. The reservoir opens through a muscle-controlled valve onto a thick-walled reaction chamber. This chamber is lined with cells that secrete catalases and peroxidases. When the contents of the reservoir are forced into the reaction chamber, the catalases and peroxidases rapidly break down the hydrogen peroxide and catalyze the oxidation of the hydroquinones into p-quinones.
These reactions release free oxygen and generate enough heat to bring the mixture to the boiling point and vaporize about a fifth of it. Under pressure of the released gases, the valve is forced closed, and the chemicals are expelled explosively through openings at the tip of the abdomen. Each time it does this, it shoots about 70 times very rapidly. The damage caused can be fatal to attacking insects and small creatures and is painful to human skin. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_beetle )

It's sounds a bit completely hard to me, what do you think? Here's a video that explains it all : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFUIEuNeWw4&feature=related

Sorry if this has already been mentioned

Hmm... Sounds like a challenge. But this 'small explosion' thing... From the description of the defence mechanism, what it seems to be is basically attacking the enemy with a chemical wind. No, not a toxic fart, but chemicals (Or some sort of irritant) fired very quickly at the victim. The chemicals could be incorporated into our current idea for toxins, and they are fired as a high-velocity spray... I don't think an ability for organisms to spray stuff been mentioned at all yet (except maybe as an underwater propulsion system).

Now, the mixed chemicals can be covered by toxins, and the raw chemicals can be covered by materials, but this is a way for a mixture of materials to be turned into toxins... So, have we got anything for this?


And as for how far we go into the defence mechanisms of animals, I'd say not as much as we should. But it's quite a deadly topic... What we seem to need to do is think of every possible defence system and include them all. That or create a 'defence system generator', but when you get to how... We have a thing that works out how much damage you can do with different shapes and forces, but that doesn't cover any of the creative things like the system above... Although, luckily, ink sacks do seem to be covered, they just hinder an organisms senses... That's assuming the AI 'sees' just like the player.

Maybe it first could evolve just like the Inkt Sac and then during evolution some chemicals get added so it's also stinging or something. When you go on land, you have a stinging spray. Or is this to Sporish? I don't know what would happen if the Octopus evolved to walk on and used his Inkt Sac but it could be like a spray.

Milan0ka wrote:

How far do you guys go into the defense mechanisms of animals?
Do we put in things like an Inkt Sac for underwater creatures?
Is it possible to evolve some sort of small explosion like the Bombardier beetle? It's effective, but I think it would be hard to evolve because it is done with chemicals, hydroquinones and hydrogen peroxide, the last one is thought to be in the immune system, so it may already be in the game. Is it possible to do this in the game?
Here's a text from wikipedia.

Defense mechanism

Secretory cells produce hydroquinones and hydrogen peroxide, which collect in a reservoir. The reservoir opens through a muscle-controlled valve onto a thick-walled reaction chamber. This chamber is lined with cells that secrete catalases and peroxidases. When the contents of the reservoir are forced into the reaction chamber, the catalases and peroxidases rapidly break down the hydrogen peroxide and catalyze the oxidation of the hydroquinones into p-quinones.
These reactions release free oxygen and generate enough heat to bring the mixture to the boiling point and vaporize about a fifth of it. Under pressure of the released gases, the valve is forced closed, and the chemicals are expelled explosively through openings at the tip of the abdomen. Each time it does this, it shoots about 70 times very rapidly. The damage caused can be fatal to attacking insects and small creatures and is painful to human skin. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_beetle )

It's sounds a bit completely hard to me, what do you think? Here's a video that explains it all : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFUIEuNeWw4&feature=related

Sorry if this has already been mentioned

This can be managed in the OE organ system. You'd need a gland that produces the substance, tubes to connect it to the outside, and an orifice to shoot it out of.

Well were on the topic of defense mechanisms: What about herd defense? like something as basic as your creature calling out to warn the herd of predators approaching? or starting a stampede? herd wide defense mechanisms will probably be important for herbivores or any creatures that travel in herds/small packs so they should be considered.

SciFiGamer wrote:

Well were on the topic of defense mechanisms: What about herd defense? like something as basic as your creature calling out to warn the herd of predators approaching? or starting a stampede? herd wide defense mechanisms will probably be important for herbivores or any creatures that travel in herds/small packs so they should be considered.

That's an excellent point. herding behavior should be covered in the behavior editor portion of the OE.

~sciocont wrote:

SciFiGamer wrote:

Well were on the topic of defense mechanisms: What about herd defense? like something as basic as your creature calling out to warn the herd of predators approaching? or starting a stampede? herd wide defense mechanisms will probably be important for herbivores or any creatures that travel in herds/small packs so they should be considered.

That's an excellent point. herding behavior should be covered in the behavior editor portion of the OE.

Have we got a current concept for the behaviour editor? We know it'll have the options for lots of behaviours, but not, to my knowledge, what they are or how they the editor works... I think using boolean values would work well (as in AND, OR, XOR, etc), but maybe if presented in a way that sounds less scary (XNOR? People wont like that); that'd be along with object and action options, and stuff.

Visual mockup (thank you Pages) (maybe I should have made this post in a new thread, oh well):

Spoiler:

Anyway, back to the current topic... Which I think has been pretty much concluded anyway.

The Uteen wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

SciFiGamer wrote:

Well were on the topic of defense mechanisms: What about herd defense? like something as basic as your creature calling out to warn the herd of predators approaching? or starting a stampede? herd wide defense mechanisms will probably be important for herbivores or any creatures that travel in herds/small packs so they should be considered.

That's an excellent point. herding behavior should be covered in the behavior editor portion of the OE.

Have we got a current concept for the behaviour editor? We know it'll have the options for lots of behaviours, but not, to my knowledge, what they are or how they the editor works... I think using boolean values would work well (as in AND, OR, XOR, etc), but maybe if presented in a way that sounds less scary (XNOR? People wont like that); that'd be along with object and action options, and stuff.

Visual mockup (thank you Pages) (maybe I should have made this post in a new thread, oh well):

Spoiler:

Anyway, back to the current topic... Which I think has been pretty much concluded anyway.

GamerXA created a concept program a while back.

~sciocont wrote:

SciFiGamer wrote:

Well were on the topic of defense mechanisms: What about herd defense? like something as basic as your creature calling out to warn the herd of predators approaching? or starting a stampede? herd wide defense mechanisms will probably be important for herbivores or any creatures that travel in herds/small packs so they should be considered.

That's an excellent point. herding behavior should be covered in the behavior editor portion of the OE.

But we need a way for the herd to understand that you are warning them about a predator rather than just yelling to yell.

Poisson wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

SciFiGamer wrote:

Well were on the topic of defense mechanisms: What about herd defense? like something as basic as your creature calling out to warn the herd of predators approaching? or starting a stampede? herd wide defense mechanisms will probably be important for herbivores or any creatures that travel in herds/small packs so they should be considered.

That's an excellent point. herding behavior should be covered in the behavior editor portion of the OE.

But we need a way for the herd to understand that you are warning them about a predator rather than just yelling to yell.

Your yell would need to be, specifically a danger yell. The Behavior editor would pick up that the danger yell had been made and it would adjust behavior accordingly, probably putting the creature into a defensive state.

~sciocont wrote:

Poisson wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

SciFiGamer wrote:

Well were on the topic of defense mechanisms: What about herd defense? like something as basic as your creature calling out to warn the herd of predators approaching? or starting a stampede? herd wide defense mechanisms will probably be important for herbivores or any creatures that travel in herds/small packs so they should be considered.

That's an excellent point. herding behavior should be covered in the behavior editor portion of the OE.

But we need a way for the herd to understand that you are warning them about a predator rather than just yelling to yell.

Your yell would need to be, specifically a danger yell. The Behavior editor would pick up that the danger yell had been made and it would adjust behavior accordingly, probably putting the creature into a defensive state.

Well if your doing specific types of yells then wouldn't that lead to a basic language? If your creatures using different types of yells that mean different things then would it count towards basic language in auto evo right? or do I not understand how the auto evo works?

Maybe a bit like the Meerkat?

Behavior

(...)
Meerkats demonstrate altruistic behavior within their colonies; one or more meerkats stand sentry while others are foraging or playing, to warn them of approaching dangers. When a predator is spotted, the meerkat performing as sentry gives a warning bark, and other members of the gang will run and hide in one of the many bolt holes they have spread across their territory. The sentry meerkat is the first to reappear from the burrow and search for predators, constantly barking to keep the others underground. If there is no threat, the sentry meerkat stops signaling and the others feel safe to emerge. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meerkat )
(...)

But instead of staying at one place the group would be moving as a herd from place to place. With a few sentry walking around the group.
SciFiGamer's idea's are good too, I think that would work.

SciFiGamer wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

Poisson wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

SciFiGamer wrote:

Well were on the topic of defense mechanisms: What about herd defense? like something as basic as your creature calling out to warn the herd of predators approaching? or starting a stampede? herd wide defense mechanisms will probably be important for herbivores or any creatures that travel in herds/small packs so they should be considered.

That's an excellent point. herding behavior should be covered in the behavior editor portion of the OE.

But we need a way for the herd to understand that you are warning them about a predator rather than just yelling to yell.

Your yell would need to be, specifically a danger yell. The Behavior editor would pick up that the danger yell had been made and it would adjust behavior accordingly, probably putting the creature into a defensive state.

Well if your doing specific types of yells then wouldn't that lead to a basic language? If your creatures using different types of yells that mean different things then would it count towards basic language in auto evo right? or do I not understand how the auto evo works?

You are correct.

~sciocont wrote:

SciFiGamer wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

Poisson wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

SciFiGamer wrote:

Well were on the topic of defense mechanisms: What about herd defense? like something as basic as your creature calling out to warn the herd of predators approaching? or starting a stampede? herd wide defense mechanisms will probably be important for herbivores or any creatures that travel in herds/small packs so they should be considered.

That's an excellent point. herding behavior should be covered in the behavior editor portion of the OE.

But we need a way for the herd to understand that you are warning them about a predator rather than just yelling to yell.

Your yell would need to be, specifically a danger yell. The Behavior editor would pick up that the danger yell had been made and it would adjust behavior accordingly, probably putting the creature into a defensive state.

Well if your doing specific types of yells then wouldn't that lead to a basic language? If your creatures using different types of yells that mean different things then would it count towards basic language in auto evo right? or do I not understand how the auto evo works?

You are correct.

The behaviour wont be editable in-game, though, will it? I hope not, it could make some pretty cool behaviours if done randomly, maybe with a slight nudge from the player's behaviour.

The Uteen wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

SciFiGamer wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

Poisson wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

SciFiGamer wrote:

Well were on the topic of defense mechanisms: What about herd defense? like something as basic as your creature calling out to warn the herd of predators approaching? or starting a stampede? herd wide defense mechanisms will probably be important for herbivores or any creatures that travel in herds/small packs so they should be considered.

That's an excellent point. herding behavior should be covered in the behavior editor portion of the OE.

But we need a way for the herd to understand that you are warning them about a predator rather than just yelling to yell.

Your yell would need to be, specifically a danger yell. The Behavior editor would pick up that the danger yell had been made and it would adjust behavior accordingly, probably putting the creature into a defensive state.

Well if your doing specific types of yells then wouldn't that lead to a basic language? If your creatures using different types of yells that mean different things then would it count towards basic language in auto evo right? or do I not understand how the auto evo works?

You are correct.

The behaviour wont be editable in-game, though, will it? I hope not, it could make some pretty cool behaviours if done randomly, maybe with a slight nudge from the player's behaviour.

Behavior editor is part of the OE. My suggestion is that we use the OE to evolve in game.

~scint wrote:

The teen wrote:

~scint wrote:

SiG wrote:

~scint wrote:

Posso (It's gone from french to italian!) wrote:

~scint wrote:

SiG wrote:

Well defense mechanisms herd something as basic as a stampede? wide mechanisms will be for herbivores or any herds/small packs.

That's herding behavior covered in the portion.

But we need the herd to understand that you are a predator just yelling to yell.

Your yell would need to be a danger yell. The pick up yell would adjust the creature into a state.

yells wouldn't lead to a basic language? your creatures mean different things it count towards basic language? I not auto evo?

You are.

behaviour wont be in-game, though? hope not, it make some pretty randomly, with a slight nudge behaviour.

Behavior is the OE. suggestion is that we evolve in game.

I think some of the words spilt out of the quote boxes... I hope it didn't alter the message too much. Anyway, I agree we should evolve in game... Behaviour is not the OE, it's what a creature does! And what on earth did 'The teen' mean by 'a slight nudge behaviour'?

...Ohh... It did alter the message. I'll have to scroll below the text entry box to see what you said, I'm not picking all those words back up. Brb...


...*creak* *clank* *crash* *more words clatter onto the floor*


Wait, we are using the OE to evolve now? I thought we had just claimed auto-evo back! What's going on? *Utterly confuzzled*

...*Annoyed confuzzled isn't a word*

Scio's scheduled to be back today, so I shall bump my question to which he was the desired recipient.
What did you mean? I've waited days, my mind is burning with confused and worrying wonderings...

*Clonk*
Whoops... Not again...

Scio's scheduled back bump was desired.
What mean days, my mind is confused and worrying...

Okay, I'll be more careful now. The words are beginning to insult my mind. I'm not having inanimate squiggles insult me, even if I typed them... And I don't know what they're suggesting with this 'scheduled back bumping', but it sounds dangerous, so I'm taking no part in it.


But seriously, what is this of which you speak? -I mean type?

Uteen- behavior is part of the OE. It tells NPCs what to do. You decide what you do in game, of course. I've always suggested that player evo should be done by the player, so that you can play how you like. However, if you so choose, you can just let auto evo (which is pretty much all worked out) take control.

Should we really allow the players to play as they want? It would change the goal from "try to survive with what you've got" to "design the best creature". Remember, most if not all players will always do it the easier way if they can.

And even then, this would still only apply before God mode is achieved.

Commander Keen wrote:

Should we really allow the players to play as they want? It would change the goal from "try to survive with what you've got" to "design the best creature". Remember, most if not all players will always do it the easier way if they can.

And even then, this would still only apply before God mode is achieved.

One of the core ideas of this game is freedom. I think you should always have the option to play as you like. Besides, designing yourself will only help you if you are competent. most people who self-design will become too specialized and die out quickly at times of environmental change.

~sciocont wrote:

Commander Keen wrote:

Should we really allow the players to play as they want? It would change the goal from "try to survive with what you've got" to "design the best creature". Remember, most if not all players will always do it the easier way if they can.

And even then, this would still only apply before God mode is achieved.

One of the core ideas of this game is freedom. I think you should always have the option to play as you like. Besides, designing yourself will only help you if you are competent. most people who self-design will become too specialized and die out quickly at times of environmental change.

And wouldn't be able to remember (or find in the first place) the many things that need to be compensated and adapted to. There's many species of prey, predator, and even rivals competing for the niche, with many different things to take into account, and so doing it yourself is foolish, and I should stop now, before I bring down the whole idea, and/or begin a long argument...

On the other hand, auto-evo may not always be lucky enough to compensate, since it uses random chance... It gets slowly more and more boring and irrelevant from here on, descending into what can only be referred to as brain splunge, so to save you the time, and the brain in your head, I shall now redirect your eyes down to the next post.

VV Look down to the next post! VV
Redirection complete
If you're reading this, you haven't looked down...
Disobey the Uteen again, and you shall be
made to eat... BRAIN SPLUNGE!

The Uteen wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

Commander Keen wrote:

Should we really allow the players to play as they want? It would change the goal from "try to survive with what you've got" to "design the best creature". Remember, most if not all players will always do it the easier way if they can.

And even then, this would still only apply before God mode is achieved.

One of the core ideas of this game is freedom. I think you should always have the option to play as you like. Besides, designing yourself will only help you if you are competent. most people who self-design will become too specialized and die out quickly at times of environmental change.

Needs sleep

Options. How about three options?
-pure auto-evo
-auto evo where you evolve when you are selected
-no auto-evo, you can evolve once in every generation

~sciocont wrote:

The Uteen wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

Commander Keen wrote:

Should we really allow the players to play as they want? It would change the goal from "try to survive with what you've got" to "design the best creature". Remember, most if not all players will always do it the easier way if they can.

And even then, this would still only apply before God mode is achieved.

One of the core ideas of this game is freedom. I think you should always have the option to play as you like. Besides, designing yourself will only help you if you are competent. most people who self-design will become too specialized and die out quickly at times of environmental change.

Needs six weeks of non-stop sleep and minimal brain activity, before that very brain explodes from the ears

Options. How about three options?
-pure auto-evo
-auto evo where you evolve when you are selected
-no auto-evo, you can evolve once in every generation

Does 'selected' mean chosen randomly (with the planned chance biases, ie your idea of higher chance reaction mutations)? If so, what separates that from pure auto-evo, which is using those ideas? I need some further elaboration, please.


Anyway, while I await the elaboration, I shall present my idea:

Option 1: Auto-evo
Option 2: Manual-evo

Then, in the settings, a 'rate of mutation' slider, beginning with never (it seems sensible, if a bit suicidal), and going all the way up to every generation. There would then be a marker somewhere along it for the default rate of mutation, and ideally further markers for indications of points like: 2x rate, 3x rate, 5x rate, 1/2 rate, 1/3 rate, 1/5, rate, etc; which may not be obvious at first. This way, there can be every generation evolution along with many other rates.

The Uteen wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

The Uteen wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

Commander Keen wrote:

Should we really allow the players to play as they want? It would change the goal from "try to survive with what you've got" to "design the best creature". Remember, most if not all players will always do it the easier way if they can.

And even then, this would still only apply before God mode is achieved.

One of the core ideas of this game is freedom. I think you should always have the option to play as you like. Besides, designing yourself will only help you if you are competent. most people who self-design will become too specialized and die out quickly at times of environmental change.

Needs six weeks of non-stop sleep and minimal brain activity, before that very brain explodes from the ears

Options. How about three options?
-pure auto-evo
-auto evo where you evolve when you are selected
-no auto-evo, you can evolve once in every generation

Does 'selected' mean chosen randomly (with the planned chance biases, ie your idea of higher chance reaction mutations)? If so, what separates that from pure auto-evo, which is using those ideas? I need some further elaboration, please.


Anyway, while I await the elaboration, I shall present my idea:

Option 1: Auto-evo
Option 2: Manual-evo

Then, in the settings, a 'rate of mutation' slider, beginning with never (it seems sensible, if a bit suicidal), and going all the way up to every generation. There would then be a marker somewhere along it for the default rate of mutation, and ideally further markers for indications of points like: 2x rate, 3x rate, 5x rate, 1/2 rate, 1/3 rate, 1/5, rate, etc; which may not be obvious at first. This way, there can be every generation evolution along with many other rates.

Sorry, that was quite unclear.

Option 1- Pure auto evo
Option 2- When you are selected by the game in the normal auto-evo process, you can directly edit your organism.
Option 3- You can edit your organism every generation.

Wait. If manual-evo is very likely to kill you, then are we just giving inexperienced players the opportunity to go extinct? Maybe we should tell them to use autoevo until they play the game enough..