Crash Course Economics

What? Decimals making it harder to code? Not at all. However, floating point operations are slower to compute. Either that or integers starting at grams (that should be small enough) are precise enough. Usually the added cost is negligible, but if we are choking processors with it...

Okay, then I guess there's no issue. So, unless there is something I missed, that discussion is wrapped up, and we can get to coming up with the categories for the FP's. What are your guys' suggestions?

This is what I have so far...

Tools
Ex. Spearhead, Axe, Blade, Handle

Machinery
Ex. Wheel, Ballista Mechanism, Bucket

Structures
Ex. Courtroom, Organic Lab, Classroom

Anything too general? Anything missing?

Seems good.

By machinery I noticed you also put very simple mechanisms (like the wheel, rope, cog, etc.) that are more or less used in making more advanced machines?

I'm not sure, but maybe you could separate these very simple mechanisms from the rest of the tools, because on their own, they're pretty much useless. The wheel is used in making carts, automobiles etc. but I really can't see any practical use for it alone. (except for maybe crushing things). Cogs are completely useless by them self as well. Rope can maybe be used for stuff other than machinery, but still, I think it should be regarded as a "simple mechanism".

So, let's get to the point: Maybe we should make a new category called mechanisms or misc. or something like that that would include:
1. Simple mechanisms. Things I mentioned just a second ago.
2. Containers. Containers are in reality, "simple mechanisms" as well, although they do have a use outside of machinery, but they will still probably be used a lot when making complex mechanisms.

It's just my suggestion. I don't know if you like it, but I thought it would be more practical.

(Sorry for double post)

Also, will players actually have to make their own machinery by combining mechanisms?

And when I said "We should separate mechanisms from the rest of the *tools" * I actually meant machines.

Well, Function Parts by definition are the things that comprise the machines, and not the machines themselves. So moving the simple mechanisms that are not very useful on their own to a new category would more or less move all of them. The advanced machinery you are speaking of are no longer Function Parts, but Tech Objects, creations made in the Tech Editor with Function Parts.

I see your point about containers, and I originally separated them not because they were significantly different, but because I imagined that there would be enough of them under the Machinery Category to be able to comprise their own category. However, now that I look back at it, it seems like there aren't that many Function Parts that are containers, so I would agree to merge them with Machinery (aka Simple Mechanisms).

EDIT: I edited my above list to the new version.

Oh ok. When you said "ballista mechanism " I thought you meant a ballista-like machine, not just the mechanism that makes it launch projectiles. I think that the categorization is good now (when you merged containers with machines). I really can't think of another way to categorize function parts.

Okay, so if we've got the categories nailed, we now need to get to naming a list of FP's. You can use the list I gave earlier for ideas. I have a list of my own that I will post up some time tomorrow to add on as well.

Remember folks, we are making a new list, not just revising the old one, so we need your contributions to complete it.

Here's my idea for the list (note there are some stuff from the old list too, this one just adds more FP's):

Spoiler:

Updated the list again. I'm going to add the ideas Nick gave me too, very soon.

Tarpy wrote:

Here's my idea for the list (note there are some stuff from the old list too, this one just adds more FP's):

Spoiler:

Okay, so the list will need A LOT of revising. There are many things that are probably unnecessary, so tell me your suggestions.

IMO some of those are a bit too general. For example, instead of having "computer" be a function part, that would be a Tech Object made of various FPs such as a CPU and integrated circuits and fans, as well as a case. Another example would be the television, which would include a screen, integrated circuits, and again the casing for it all.

You are right. I shall change the list. Tell me what you guys think about the new one.

Many of those FP's do not serve a purpose in game. I would like to challenge the above post and say that the player need not assemble a TV or computer. TV is not useful enough altogether, and a computer FP is only useful insomuch as it is a single FP, such as computer, or terminal.

Fans, integrated circuits, and the rest are WAAY too detailed for our scope, or for the scope of any game I can think of.

Stick I would rename Handle, since it can be made of any material.
Torch doesn't seem terribly necessary...
I don't see purpose for a wedge.
Hammerhead would be better as simply hammer. Hammerhead reminds me of the shark. (I know you just mean the head of the hammer).
Musical Instrument, although it makes sense, actually serves no purpose if you were to look at the concept.
The different types of containers, I think we should come back to that, because differentiating between the different types is important, or else we should just have one. Actually, let's just discuss that now.
Wooden platform isn't needed, since the player can make new shapes, platforms, and other stuff out of any material in the TE. Walls, roofs, platforms, etc.
Stirrup should be discussed. Anyone who can, elaborate how that would work.
Paintbrush isn't needed.
Bottle too.
Hand Drill I have to think about. Discuss its possible use below, and let's see what its good for.
Pipe I don't think we need.
Tap as well.
Buttons and levers as well.

Oh man, the next ones are interesting. You know what, I'm gonna go to sleep now and think these over. I'll read them over again and post tomorrow when I have thought it over more. Many of these initially seem unnecessary or hard to make necessary, but then on second though strike some interest. As I promised, I will also pitch in my list then as well.

Hmmmm.... You seem right about some of them but I don't agree with some of your points. Torches, neon lights, lightbulbs etc. should be used as decorational FP's- they wouldn't really have much use apart from lightning up/ decorating a TO. I initially wanted to name the stick handle, but for some reason I didn't, so I shall change that now. You are right about the wedge and hammer. I initially had much, much more types of containers but I thought it would have been useless to separate a bottle and a jar, but from what I understood, you actually want to differentate them in that way. Okay, then I shall separate them. Wooden platform is useless, paintbrush is to but the bottle, I'm not sure about that. Hand drill could be used in making a, I dunno, workbench or stonecutter's. How do we not need the pipe? It's very useful. Tap- not that much, but still. Buttons and levers may get a use. Also, I have removed some other things from the list.

Oh, torches as in a decorative sense are fine. I thought it was for practical use.
No, what I'm saying is that either we clearly differentiate between the different containers on the list, or otherwise merge them all into clearly distinct ones. For example, I can't think of much of a difference, in game terms, between bucket and basket.
Now that I look into it, hand drills do not actually serve much purpose in game.
Pipe I could see being useful, but only if internal systems involving plumbing, hydraulics, or pneumonics are implemented, which I don't see happening anytime soon. Plus, basic hydraulic and pneumonic systems will most likely be implemented, actually must be implemented, but to the level of detail where the player placed individual pipes I don't think so.
I promise I'll give my promised post soon, I have just been coerced into a Civ V game at the moment.

So, now for my review of the rest of the list.

Books and candles aren't particularly needed, especially the latter. Candles don't provide very much light anyway even if used for decorative purposes.
Telescope I would replace with observatory.
Tavern, meh, keep it for now.
Lantern seems like too much, even for decor.
I would rename Gunpoweder Barrel to just Gun Barrel.
Cannonballs aren't needed.
Thermometer and fuse box as well.
Scope, microscope, camera, as well.
Electro-magnet, discuss that below, because I imagine it could be of some use but then again I'm not sure.
I wouldn't want to call tank gun a "Tank Gun", although I can't think of a better name.
Typewriter not needed.
Factory Compartment? What do you mean?
Refrigerator, wrench, and metal detector not needed.
Radio reciever merge with Radio Antenna, and rename it Radio Tower.
Radar screen just make Radar.
Fan, film projector, and beacon are not needed.
TV altogether.
Security camera too.
Museum Exhibition can be just Museum.
Electric Microscope too in depth.
I know this is a small thing, but I think Police Station would be better over Police Department. The former is the physical structure, while the latter is the organization.
Merge all computers types.
Could you explain the role of an office? I like the idea and it sounds interesting, but I can't think of a use for it.
Scanners and printers are too much.
3D Printer as well.
What do you mean by Liquid Extractor Mechanism? What could it be used for?
Oil/Chemical Refinery can just be, for simplicity's sake, Chemical Refinery.
Air Conditioning not needed.
Ocean Turbines? Is that what they are called? I though they are called Hydro-turbines or Water Turbines?

The rest is all awesome. Great work on this list. That is very impressive how you came up with all that (even provided you had that other list too).

So now, here are my suggestions for the list. These are FP's I realized are necessary after working with the concept, so I know of purposes for them in game.

Housing (Lower Class)
Housing (Middle Class)
Housing (Upper Class)
Market
Stockpile
Forge (aka Furnace)
Workshop
Smithy
Refinery
Assembly Line
Casting Plant
Mechanical Loom
Lumber Mill (aka Sawmill)
Apothecary
Theatre

If you have any questions on their uses, just ask.

I updated the list.

I'm not sure about the containers, maybe we should differentate them because, for example, a basket can't hold liquids because they would spill. I am going to differentate them. Tell me what you think about it.

I will rename things as you said.

Refrigirator not very useful? I would rename it to freezer, but other than that looks fine. When the refrigirator appeared in the XIX century, it was a revolutionary device. Food was no longer a subject of spoiling, so ships could have traveled longer distances, most food industries received a production boom etc.

Liquid extractor I will rename to pump.
Offices would be placed into factories to improve production efficency and could create a brand new office building that would give income.

Great!

Whenever I say not useful, I do not deny their purpose in reality, rather, I am referring as to whether that same or a similar purpose can be served by it in game. Since by the Strategy Mode, I dont think we will be calculating when food goes bad, Refrigerators/Freezers dont have much use.

However, I could see a way around this. We could make Refrigerators increase the yield of compounds from the building tagged as "Food".

Differentiating sounds good. I guess we could place restrictions as to what container allows the carrying of what compounds.

Oh, I see. Pumps would be useful.

I got an idea for Offices, something I thought of overnight and is similar to your idea. Each Office FP increases the yield of a Factory. If a player builds a building with Offices separate from a factory, then whenever he places that building he must designate which factory thr office is related to. Each factory can only have one Office building related to it.

Actually we can simulate food going bad, and we should. We alredy have discussed stockpiles, which have a retention rate (or something like that). That aplies to anything that can deteriorate. Refrigerators (when used) will reduce that loss dramatically. We can also make so that people prefer to consume food that is close to perish, in order to make the food last longer.

The best way (most realistic) to do that would be to keep track of every food item that comes in, and destroy it when enough time has passed if noone ate it. This might be too much for computers, and to make it good we might have to introduce every kind of food (each one has diferent decaying time). Refrigerators would increase the time it takes for the food to go bad.

The easiest way would be to simulate food as if it were radioactive material, decaying the same way. Each cycle, some percentage of it goes bad. For example, if the stockpile is currently at 100, decaying rate is at 10% and there is no consumption, then it would look like this: 100>90>91>73>66>59>48>43>29>35>31>28>25>23. Refrigerators would reduce that percentage when used. Consumption would be taken from the things that are going to decay first, so only the biggest from consumption and decay would take effect (if you eat it faster than it decays, you won't notice anything, but if you try to store too much, food will start to perish). This is not a very accurate simulation, but it is extremely easy to do for the computer.

I think that lighting can be implemented as well. Without lighting, nothing can work at night. Candles require wax (if you dont have something similar to bees you cannot use them), and electrical lighting require energy.

Okay, so let me first start of with a question.

Should I maybe make a separate thread for discussing the different uses of the various FP's? Since this thread is called "crash course economics" I assume we are only temporarily discussing FP's and that the time will come when we would have to move on to different things. If I made a thread about the uses of the FP's, I think we would be more efficient. Keep in mind that the thread won't be used for adding new FP's, but discussing the actual use of the current ones.

That being said, I want you guys to tell me what you think about it.

Back on topic. Yes, simulating food decay would be difficult, but I have an idea about it.

First of all, let's start of with the case that food doesn't decay. Food wouldn't decay in an area while the food income of that province is lesser than or equal to the loss of food in that province. Let's say Fi is food income and Fl is food loss and D is food decay . First, the computer would scan Fi and Fl and compare them. If Fi<=Fl than D=0 and there is no food decay. However, if Fl<Fi than D would get a value larger than 0. More precisely, here are the factors that would effect D:
1. D will initially start of as (Ft(total food)-Fl)*100/Ft (if Fl<Fi)
2. If the climate is very arid or arid, nothing would be added due to the climate. If it is temperate than D=D+1 and if it is humid or very humid than D=D+2 or D=D+3
3. If there is a lack of storage space in the SC than D=Fe (Excess food)*100/Ft (total food) or something like that, I'm not sure.

This way, Fl=Fl+D.

Tell me if you like the idea

A new thread on the purposes of FP's would be good. That's something I have taken many notes on but never really discussed on the forums.

I like your idea about food decay, and it reminisces of a Paradox Game calculation (income of that province is lesser...). However, I prefer Dani's method. I like the idea of the 10% decay when stockpiled. It builds upon the stockpile concept, and as well it allows for a new variable to be added to the properties of compounds, decay rate.

However, I think candles are too small and do not provide significant enough light to be included as an FP. I think torches and braziers, followed by lighting and neon lights sounds good.

Danifferto's decay concept is good, as the player would never get a larger decay rate than the actual amount of food a province, unlike in my concept that would need some polishing. However, I think that the decay rate wouldn't always have to be a straightforward 10% since there would always be different things affecting decay. Take this as an example. If I had a city in a tundra, with proper storage for goods, a very well developed infrastructure, and a city in a jungle, where there wasn't enough storage for all the food produced and the infrastructure next to nothing, I'm sure decay in the latter would be much larger.
So, allow me to demonstrate what I think we should do about this:
The default decay variable is 10. Here's the list of things that would increase and decrease decay rate:
Green- Things that decrease decay
Red- Things that increase decay
If the province owner has discovered refrigiration, than D=D-5;
If the province has access to salt, than D=D-2
If the province has a good administration, than D=D- up to 2
If the province is in a cold biome, than D=D-3
If the province is in a temperate biome, humid or very humid biome, than D=D+1,D=D+3 or D=D+5
If the province doesn't have enough storage, than D=D+ up to 8

Also, since I'm not allowed to make new threads in this section, I can't create the FP thread. Can you make it for me, I mean, just create a thread called "Function Part Uses" or something like that and let me make organise it and everything. Or you can organise it , it's entirely up to you.

Of course, 10% was just an example. And i alredy said that diferent conditions would modify the decay. However, i dont really like your way of handling decay. Here is how i would do it:

Depending on the environement, decay would vary. The hotter the climate, the bigger the decay, geting to be extremely unsuistainable at high temperatures (80% decay), and low decay at low temperatures. The actual numbers have to be discussed once the actual system is on place, as they depend on how fast the cycles take place.

Having the food on a refrigerator would override environement, simulating decay as if food was on a very cold climate.

Good administration and some researches modify decay multiplicatedly (probably spelled wrong). What i mean, for example, is that a good administration reduces decay to half, and bad administration doubles decay. This multipliers affect the decay from the environement.

I dont really know how salt would affect.

Tarpy, just to clarify, the map is not divided into provinces. The player has a country, and that country is comprised of SC's. Modifiers would thus be applied nationwide or to the SC. Decay Rate I think should also depend on the compound, and some compounds could thus not decay.

See, its not that refrigeration is a Research that is unlocked that then adds a modifier to "provinces", or in our case the nation or SC's, of the player. Rather, it is an FP that is or is not placed in the building. If the player has researched the Research that enables the Refrigerator FP, that does not mean that all storage buildings automatically get that modifier. Only buildings with a Refrigerator FP get a reduced Decay Rate, based on the number of Refrigerators the player places.

Administration has been removed as a value, by the way. It was an arbitrary value for something that will actually be simulated.

You guys are going to have to specify the relationship between the biomes and the decay rates. I would think this isn't really all that necessary to include, anyways.

A province doesn't store compounds. Buildings store them. If the building doesn't have enough storage, that compound wouldn't even be stored there in the first place, so that last modifier is not applicable.

I think all you need is 20 posts to make a new thread. With two more posts here you should be up to par. However, if you want, I could do it.

Well, I know that the map won't be divided into provinces. I just called the SC's provinces for... I don't know why actually.

So, I know that my suggestion in my last post needed some polishing, as it was just an example. Danifferto, we can go with your decay concept, but there is a hole in it. The problem is, temperature isn't the most important factor for decay. The most important factor for decay is the humidity in the area. Now, humidity is somewhat affected by the temperature, but still, deserts have a high temperature and are extremely arid while jungles also have a high temperature and are extremely humid. Sure, we can take the temperature of the area in which the SC is in into account, but we have to take humidity as well. Also, salt would actually effect the decay quite a lot. Before fridges were discovered, salt was used to prevent meat rot.

Also, I didn't know I need two more posts (now 1) to be able to create new threads. You don't have to make the thread for me, I'll just wait for another post and than create it.

(sorry for double post)

Here is the link for the FP discussion