Fine Manipulation

So, alot of the game world will have things that the player will want to do that's simply impossible to design into the game system. So here's my thought: have a button that let's the player treat their organism as a manican(sp?) as in the tech editor. Then, plot a course for the different limbs. Press the button again and the critter will attempt to complete the course set out for them. This will be great for everything from playing a game-generated board game to climbing a rock-face.

Tenebrarum wrote:

So, alot of the game world will have things that the player will want to do that's simply impossible to design into the game system. So here's my thought: have a button that let's the player treat their organism as a manican(sp?) as in the tech editor. Then, plot a course for the different limbs. Press the button again and the critter will attempt to complete the course set out for them. This will be great for everything from playing a game-generated board game to climbing a rock-face.

So... I didn't really get that much of it, but you mean pressing a key = doing stuff, especially climbing?

It's good but of course surfaces may vary, and your creature might lose a grip on one. Or you could go through a long, time-consuming, painstaking process of making many, many courses. But I think that might be our job rather than the player's.

It does seem overly time consuming and tedious for Casual Players and most Hard-Core Players too.

And aren't we already using the Mannequin idea in the tech editor already. The player should only really have to place the Organism in the tech and then the computer fills in the controls and behaviour with the tech's.

GamerXA wrote:

It does seem overly time consuming and tedious for Casual Players and most Hard-Core Players too.

And aren't we already using the Mannequin idea in the tech editor already. The player should only really have to place the Organism in the tech and then the computer fills in the controls and behaviour with the tech's.

It seems tedious, but in comparison to say, making a shelter without the TE (Awakening) the whole thing comes into veiw for me.

It really wouldn't be too hard to do if we have decent controls. An option to "grab" and "place on top of" will sort out most options for pre-TE construction.

The point of this is FINE manipulation, say, weaving grasses together to make a reed mat for the hut. The itty-bitty things that 'grab' is too coarse for.

Tenebrarum wrote:

The point of this is FINE manipulation, say, weaving grasses together to make a reed mat for the hut. The itty-bitty things that 'grab' is too coarse for.

Well, i don't think this should be possible until you've discovered the research "Weaving", and you'll therefore already have the TE.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

The point of this is FINE manipulation, say, weaving grasses together to make a reed mat for the hut. The itty-bitty things that 'grab' is too coarse for.

Well, i don't think this should be possible until you've discovered the research "Weaving", and you'll therefore already have the TE.

Basic weaving is done by certain apes. I assumed weaving in the research meant hand-loom.

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

The point of this is FINE manipulation, say, weaving grasses together to make a reed mat for the hut. The itty-bitty things that 'grab' is too coarse for.

Well, i don't think this should be possible until you've discovered the research "Weaving", and you'll therefore already have the TE.

Basic weaving is done by certain apes. I assumed weaving in the research meant hand-loom.

Well if it's possible, then i guess we'll just have to have a click-option for "Weave" or "Join" or something. Because your suggestion is simply too fiddly and annoying for most players.

Again, this is more than just a needlessly roundabout solution. It's a way for players to solve problems that would otherwise be unsolovable due to control limitations.

Let's say I want to dig a hole. The standard dig action uses my front limbs. I realize that my critter has tusks that would be great for digging. With Fine Maniulation, I can tell him to dig with his tusks. Without it, either I deal with the ineffciency, or the dev team comes up with a comlicated and buggy system to try and get the game to analyze the best way to dig, on top of the complicated procedurals we're already working with.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Again, this is more than just a needlessly roundabout solution. It's a way for players to solve problems that would otherwise be unsolovable due to control limitations.

Let's say I want to dig a hole. The standard dig action uses my front limbs. I realize that my critter has tusks that would be great for digging. With Fine Maniulation, I can tell him to dig with his tusks. Without it, either I deal with the ineffciency, or the dev team comes up with a comlicated and buggy system to try and get the game to analyze the best way to dig, on top of the complicated procedurals we're already working with.

like this idea. fine manipulation could put you in a third person view of your creature where you could drag body parts around, as long as you obey the restraints of physics and your creature's own body.

I still think it is a huge ask to get the player to create animations for his species to perform and get the programmers to make the game understand what is happening in the fine manipulation. For instance, if you make a digging animation and call it "Dig with Tusks", how does the game know to displace dirt? The physics will surely not be that advanced.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I still think it is a huge ask to get the player to create animations for his species to perform and get the programmers to make the game understand what is happening in the fine manipulation. For instance, if you make a digging animation and call it "Dig with Tusks", how does the game know to displace dirt? The physics will surely not be that advanced.

Good point, that was a bad example. This would function as a way to get critters to do things that they should be able to, but can't due to controls. Pushing with your mouth instead of limbs, whacking an egg out of a tree with your tail, kicking something, that sort of thing.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Good point, that was a bad example. This would function as a way to get critters to do things that they should be able to, but can't due to controls. Pushing with your mouth instead of limbs, whacking an egg out of a tree with your tail, kicking something, that sort of thing.

I hate to be a pessimist, but you still haven't explained how the game will know what each action actually does to the environment around it.

Has anyone ever played Toribash. In it the Player modified which muscles were activated in order to control the Avatar and do battle with another, some complex moves were resulting (both fight and dance moves).

Thrive would only need to simulate about 1 Meter (Relative to Size) Radius around the Player.

GamerXA wrote:

Has anyone ever played Toribash. In it the Player modified which muscles were activated in order to control the Avatar and do battle with another, some complex moves were resulting (both fight and dance moves).

Thrive would only need to simulate about 1 Meter (Relative to Size) Radius around the Player.

I hate to be a pessimist, but you still haven't explained how the game will know what each action actually does to the environment around it.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

GamerXA wrote:

Has anyone ever played Toribash. In it the Player modified which muscles were activated in order to control the Avatar and do battle with another, some complex moves were resulting (both fight and dance moves).

Thrive would only need to simulate about 1 Meter (Relative to Size) Radius around the Player.

I hate to be a pessimist, but you still haven't explained how the game will know what each action actually does to the environment around it.

Physics. The game would calculate the organism as a physics object when in Fine Manipulation mode. It would calculate the result and then play the action.

i agree with USA... it would be a very cool feature, but it seems like in-game scripting would have to happen for the game to finally know what you are trying to do. and it would be even harder for the game to know exactly when is the opportune time to do it automatically with other organisms.

examples - set a rock in front of a wall to climb onto it, stand on a building and drop a rock onto a clam-like thing, etc.

toxiciron wrote:

i agree with USA... it would be a very cool feature, but it seems like in-game scripting would have to happen for the game to finally know what you are trying to do. and it would be even harder for the game to know exactly when is the opportune time to do it automatically with other organisms.

examples - set a rock in front of a wall to climb onto it, stand on a building and drop a rock onto a clam-like thing, etc.

The game doesn't need to know what we're trying to do, it merely needs to understand physics and calculate the organism as a complex physics object for the duration of the manipulation. Other critters wouldn't pick up on it. This doesn't act as one of the actions that affects auto-evo or intelligence.

okay, i see what you're sayin.

Tenebrarum wrote:

toxiciron wrote:

i agree with USA... it would be a very cool feature, but it seems like in-game scripting would have to happen for the game to finally know what you are trying to do. and it would be even harder for the game to know exactly when is the opportune time to do it automatically with other organisms.

examples - set a rock in front of a wall to climb onto it, stand on a building and drop a rock onto a clam-like thing, etc.

The game doesn't need to know what we're trying to do, it merely needs to understand physics and calculate the organism as a complex physics object for the duration of the manipulation. Other critters wouldn't pick up on it. This doesn't act as one of the actions that affects auto-evo or intelligence.

That sounds a little better. I'll only be convinced when i see it working in-game, mind you.

GamerXA wrote:

Has anyone ever played Toribash. In it the Player modified which muscles were activated in order to control the Avatar and do battle with another, some complex moves were resulting (both fight and dance moves).

Thrive would only need to simulate about 1 Meter (Relative to Size) Radius around the Player.

Heard about it, but seemed too complex to play.