Gaining Intelligence

While there's been alot of talk on both ends of the awakening, there hasn't been much discussian about how we GET there. So here's my idea.

Basically, it's a progress bar. I hate them, but it's the only way I can imagine this working. The progress bar is invisable to the player. Now, when the meter fills up, the player will be promted to try and build a shelter, or some other simple building WITHOUT THE TECH EDITOR. (We'd need an algorithem to identify four walls and a roof as a shelter.) This is key. Like a final boss in any other game, this will be a final test of skill and a "what have we learned" type deal, requiring patience, skill, and creativity. If successful, sapience is acheived and the tech editor is unlocked.

Now, the progress bar. The player will move along this by doing things that promote intelligence in other creatures. This includes manipulating the environment, exploring, problem solving (Like catching prey) and working outside the box. Also note that if the player settles into a rutine, the bar will not move. Repition is what creates stagnation. The player must be constantly trying new things, and they must be things not naturaly tenable for the species.

Discuss.

this all sounds good, but what if the shelter you wanted to build didn't have walls or a roof? what if it was a tree fort made of just a large platform (rock? idk) balanced on two branches?

toxiciron wrote:

this all sounds good, but what if the shelter you wanted to build didn't have walls or a roof? what if it was a tree fort made of just a large platform (rock? idk) balanced on two branches?

That's where the programmers would really have to think about this algorithm and make it work.

However, i'm not sure that building a shelter should be the final test. It's definitely a strong sign of sapience, but not the sole definer. In fact, usually the way experts define the difference between man and animal is the fact that man uses tools to make other tools. Maybe that could be incorporated into this "final test"?

I just think having one ultimate test is a little too linear and restrictive.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I just think having one ultimate test is a little too linear and restrictive.

I agree. What defines sapience can differ based on the circumstances, and making it one ultimate goal seems too linear. Have we thought of the possibility that some players might make choices against achieving sapience, instead aiming to excel in some other category but remain a lower-intelligence organism? Sapience in itself might not necessarily be the end goal of every evolutionary path.

we could have a scale that could say that the brain capacity would be = to x cubic cm or to the intelligence of something. this could work for hive minded creatures. We cannot make a linear par of capacity or test, but a estimate of the processing power of the brain..

Tenebrarum wrote:

While there's been alot of talk on both ends of the awakening, there hasn't been much discussian about how we GET there. So here's my idea.

Basically, it's a progress bar. I hate them, but it's the only way I can imagine this working. The progress bar is invisable to the player. Now, when the meter fills up, the player will be promted to try and build a shelter, or some other simple building WITHOUT THE TECH EDITOR. (We'd need an algorithem to identify four walls and a roof as a shelter.) This is key. Like a final boss in any other game, this will be a final test of skill and a "what have we learned" type deal, requiring patience, skill, and creativity. If successful, sapience is acheived and the tech editor is unlocked.

Now, the progress bar. The player will move along this by doing things that promote intelligence in other creatures. This includes manipulating the environment, exploring, problem solving (Like catching prey) and working outside the box. Also note that if the player settles into a rutine, the bar will not move. Repition is what creates stagnation. The player must be constantly trying new things, and they must be things not naturaly tenable for the species.

Discuss.

I agree with this idea, but I'd like to suggest some changes (the first two I think would help make the transition smoother):


No prompt, seriously, that sounds way too much like Spore "Click the history button to evolve" "Eat plant or meat" "Get that skeleton, it contains a part you can graft onto your body like an unholy zombie"

When the bar fills you achieve sentience straight away (having a 'one last thing' doesn't appeal to me, filling the bar means you are doing the things to get sapience anyway),

Finally, when you fall into routine, the bar very slowly goes down, so avoiding awakening is easier.


Do you think we could do this, to save us from Sporification and smooth gameplay?

The Uteen wrote:

I agree with this idea, but I'd like to suggest some changes (the first two I think would help make the transition smoother):

No prompt, seriously, that sounds way too much like Spore "Click the history button to evolve" "Eat plant or meat" "Get that skeleton, it contains a part you can graft onto your body like an unholy zombie"

When the bar fills you achieve sentience straight away (having a 'one last thing' doesn't appeal to me, filling the bar means you are doing the things to get sapience anyway),

Finally, when you fall into routine, the bar very slowly goes down, so avoiding awakening is easier.

Do you think we could do this, to save us from Sporification and smooth gameplay?

Actually, yes. I think the best way to stop this from becoming linear is take away the prompts. The game will know how far you are on this progress bar anyways (and building a shelter would bump it up a fair bit). Actually, we could have building a shelter be a prerequisite for the Tech Editor, no? But what should unlock Strategy Mode? Complex Communication, maybe?

Since this topic seems to hinge around being able to build complex tech objects. Many other Organisms in the Real World can use items that we would consider in-game to be Tech Objects such as Crows, Apes and some domesticated dogs (though to a lesser extent). Albeit they mostly just use a stick and in the case of crows, wire.

This is an important step. Instead of having the Behaviour Trees on these Organisms filled up with a clutter of doing small individual steps eventually it would reach a point where, with enough repetition, these Behaviours to "Make a Hut by Placing Sticks" would just be replaced by just "Make a Hut". A certain number of these advancements based on the Tech Objects Complexity could warrant the advance to Sapience.

The prompt would merely be a sugestion, not a requirement. Since I feel it'd be best hiding the intelligence bar, this would let players know when they should work on it.

shouldn't they be always working on it, if what they want is to eventually become sapient?
which reminds me, we should at least mention in the manual or in a tutorial that becoming intelligent organisms means thinking outside the box constantly.

Tenebrarum wrote:

The prompt would merely be a sugestion, not a requirement. Since I feel it'd be best hiding the intelligence bar, this would let players know when they should work on it.

Okay, i can work with notifications like: "Congratulations! You're well on your way to sapience! Try creating a shelter or making some tools!".

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

The prompt would merely be a sugestion, not a requirement. Since I feel it'd be best hiding the intelligence bar, this would let players know when they should work on it.

Okay, i can work with notifications like: "Congratulations! You're well on your way to sapience! Try creating a shelter or making some tools!".

Would it be possible to disable these notifications then?

Albalrogue wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

The prompt would merely be a sugestion, not a requirement. Since I feel it'd be best hiding the intelligence bar, this would let players know when they should work on it.

Okay, i can work with notifications like: "Congratulations! You're well on your way to sapience! Try creating a shelter or making some tools!".

Would it be possible to disable these notifications then?

I was thinking the same reading this, after all, you don't want it appearing all the time, especially if you were not interested in getting sapience and are just seeing where the game takes you or have already made a save and know what to do.

Can this 'suggestion' only appear with the help option checked? It is help, after all, so it should be covered by the help option. That would make me completely happy with including it.

The Uteen wrote:

I was thinking the same reading this, after all, you don't want it appearing all the time, especially if you were not interested in getting sapience and are just seeing where the game takes you or have already made a save and know what to do.

Can this 'suggestion' only appear with the help option checked? It is help, after all, so it should be covered by the help option. That would make me completely happy with including it.

Makes perfect sense.

Is it possible to work in hunting and other such early-game activities to help critters gain sentience?

Tenebrarum wrote:

Is it possible to work in hunting and other such early-game activities to help critters gain sentience?

Yes since it will make critters more social if they start hunting in packs, but if you're organism hunts on it's own all the time then senscience will be less likely. Am I right?

Albalrogue wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

Is it possible to work in hunting and other such early-game activities to help critters gain sentience?

Yes since it will make critters more social if they start hunting in packs, but if you're organism hunts on it's own all the time then senscience will be less likely. Am I right?

Yes, but still significantly better than an herbavor.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Albalrogue wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

Is it possible to work in hunting and other such early-game activities to help critters gain sentience?

Yes since it will make critters more social if they start hunting in packs, but if you're organism hunts on it's own all the time then senscience will be less likely. Am I right?

Yes, but still significantly better than an herbavor.

Big apes have gained some form of inteligence even if they have a more herbivore diet.

Albalrogue wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

Albalrogue wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

Is it possible to work in hunting and other such early-game activities to help critters gain sentience?

Yes since it will make critters more social if they start hunting in packs, but if you're organism hunts on it's own all the time then senscience will be less likely. Am I right?

Yes, but still significantly better than an herbavor.

Big apes have gained some form of inteligence even if they have a more herbivore diet.

Apes still hunt though. Rarely, but they do. Their not purely herbavore.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Albalrogue wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

Albalrogue wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

Is it possible to work in hunting and other such early-game activities to help critters gain sentience?

Yes since it will make critters more social if they start hunting in packs, but if you're organism hunts on it's own all the time then senscience will be less likely. Am I right?

Yes, but still significantly better than an herbavor.

Big apes have gained some form of inteligence even if they have a more herbivore diet.

Apes still hunt though. Rarely, but they do. Their not purely herbavore.

I know that they are omnis, but if they rarely hunt then wouldn't they be less curious to discover new ways to hunt?

Well I suppose we got this inteligent (I hate saying that humans are inteligent) becaus ewe ate more meat than the other apes. Therefore finding new ways to hunt such as using spears, or scaring mamouths and make them fall off cliffs. So if apes have gained as much curiosity then they must be eating more meat than we thought.

Maybe if herbivores used simple tools as a defence against predators, they could get sapient, but it would take them reeeeally long.

Stagnancy in one aspect would not warrant the increase to Sapiency. For herbivores, almost all of their time is occupied by eating enough low-energy food so that they can actually stay alive. Meat may not have made our ancestors smart, but it definitely freed up their time for playing around; and playing around is pretty much the key to sapience. Without Trial and Error, there is no progress.

Well, then there must be a way to get "high-energy plants". Maybe carnivorous plants that eat medium-size animals?

well, if a creature ate fruits instead of leaves, that would give him a huge increment in the amount of energy taken in

I don't want to forget completely about the diet of a herbivore, so let's just say they eat very high-energy plants for this example:

There is a herbivore prey species, and it's predator is a fairly sapient (not civilised yet) purely predatory species. This sapient predator can learn how the prey species hides from it, and its common choice of hiding place. The prey needs to do something, because without being able to hide properly, it is almost totally defenceless. Therefore, it needs to come up with other ways of avoiding detection, and it needs to be able to think them, not slowly evolve to change its habits. Therefore, over time, this lucky prey species becomes able to imagine other ways to hide, beginning the unstoppable process of development, and imagination develops into conscious thought, and conscious thought develops into sentience and sapience.

It's possible, you just need a little imagination (which develops into conscious thought, and conscious thought develops into sentience and sapience, so us humans are well on our way to become intelligent :lol:).