Gaining Intelligence

RagingBeaver wrote:

i am not mindlessly disagreeing with you like a zealot, i do so because i have reason and i think it is right and i did not try to shut you up i said that we should divert our attention to the actual topic on a completely unrelated note my "quote" option seems to be broken (i can quote but my message just won't be sent) ... i may have stumbled on a forum glich

You thought you were right because you misunderstood. If you read my posts as what they were, you would agree with me. Before you said we should divert our attention to the topic, you said "I must ask you to stop", which is an alterred form of really asking me to stop: "Please stop", which is an alterred form of "SHUT UP!". BTW, if your quote option is broken, you should PM a mod about it.

If a herbivore gets enough nutrients in its diet to allow for a sapient brain, it should be possible for them to reach sapience.

Some humans are vegetarians for their entire life, so meat isn't strictly necessary for sapience, just the nutrients it contains. Herbivores with a similar diet to vegetarians, and some sort of need to develop sapience (such as in defence against a predator, sapience is a possible defence), should be able to develop sapience, while herbivores with insufficient amounts of the required nutrients in its diet would not.

Hopefully, our compounds system contains the compounds in question, and if not, would it be possible to add them? I think it would be a benefit to gameplay if the diet mattered for sapience.

now my theory is that a system should be created in which the "brain" of your creature will improve based on the creature's needs - for example i have developed a more advanced organ a basic eye now in order to make it work my creature needs a place to analyze the simple data collected from that sensory organ and use it thus the brain is either created or upgraded to also serve that function so as your creature develops it's brain will get more advanced, but that is too much like SPORE's faulty system eat something grow better wings and suddenly you are a sentient being; let's give the player some control over the brain (besides it's positioning on the body) let's make the brain (or whatever you would have as a command center) something like a huge tech tree with long branches that you unlock through organs and improve by yourself and after you get more than 60% (but that's a random number and is up for balancing debate) your species begins to get more advanced thoughts and little by little through trial and error it becomes sentient. [b] SO HERE IS AN EXAMPLE I GOT A FULLY FUNCTIONING ARM -> I UNLOCK THE BRANCH RELATED TO IT -> I IMPROVE THE BRANCH TO BETTER COORDINATION -> IMPROVE TO GER FASTER REACTION -> ETC. AND AS YOU GIVE MORE ATTRIBUTES TO YOUR BRAIN IT WILL BECOME MORE COMPLEX THUS MAKING YOU SMARTER AND SAPIENT

The Uteen wrote:

If a herbivore gets enough nutrients in its diet to allow for a sapient brain, it should be possible for them to reach sapience.

Some humans are vegetarians for their entire life, so meat isn't strictly necessary for sapience, just the nutrients it contains. Herbivores with a similar diet to vegetarians, and some sort of need to develop sapience (such as in defence against a predator, sapience is a possible defence), should be able to develop sapience, while herbivores with insufficient amounts of the required nutrients in its diet would not.

Hopefully, our compounds system contains the compounds in question, and if not, would it be possible to add them? I think it would be a benefit to gameplay if the diet mattered for sapience.

QTF but as i said before it should help you get sentience but not be a requirement

RagingBeaver wrote:

now my theory is that a system should be created in which the "brain" of your creature will improve based on the creature's needs - for example i have developed a more advanced organ a basic eye now in order to make it work my creature needs a place to analyze the simple data collected from that sensory organ and use it thus the brain is either created or upgraded to also serve that function so as your creature develops it's brain will get more advanced, but that is too much like SPORE's faulty system eat something grow better wings and suddenly you are a sentient being; let's give the player some control over the brain (besides it's positioning on the body) let's make the brain (or whatever you would have as a command center) something like a huge tech tree with long branches that you unlock through organs and improve by yourself and after you get more than 60% (but that's a random number and is up for balancing debate) your species begins to get more advanced thoughts and little by little through trial and error it becomes sentient.

No, you don't play as the creature when you are in the editor, but evolution itself. And a tech tree just for the brain? Imagine all the organs in the body and then imagine roadkill crying. Here's my system.
Basic-Most creatures are like this. An Earth example would be a fly.
Intelligent-A little smarter than everyone else. Only applies to a few specific groups, such as all primates. The dumbest of these don't even near sentience, like your orangutans.
Sentient-A LOT smarter. Only applies to a few individuals that have no other relation to each other. An Earth example would be dolphins or pigs.
Sapient- Builds tanks and does algebra. You play as the species destined to become it and play through aware and Awakening stage trying to be it. An Earth example would be humans.

RagingBeaver wrote:

The Uteen wrote:

If a herbivore gets enough nutrients in its diet to allow for a sapient brain, it should be possible for them to reach sapience.

Some humans are vegetarians for their entire life, so meat isn't strictly necessary for sapience, just the nutrients it contains. Herbivores with a similar diet to vegetarians, and some sort of need to develop sapience (such as in defence against a predator, sapience is a possible defence), should be able to develop sapience, while herbivores with insufficient amounts of the required nutrients in its diet would not.

Hopefully, our compounds system contains the compounds in question, and if not, would it be possible to add them? I think it would be a benefit to gameplay if the diet mattered for sapience.

QTF but as i said before it should help you get sentience but not be a requirement

No, sentience requires an advanced brain, which can only be fueled by Uteen's "compounds".

RagingBeaver wrote:

The Uteen wrote:

If a herbivore gets enough nutrients in its diet to allow for a sapient brain, it should be possible for them to reach sapience.

Some humans are vegetarians for their entire life, so meat isn't strictly necessary for sapience, just the nutrients it contains. Herbivores with a similar diet to vegetarians, and some sort of need to develop sapience (such as in defence against a predator, sapience is a possible defence), should be able to develop sapience, while herbivores with insufficient amounts of the required nutrients in its diet would not.

Hopefully, our compounds system contains the compounds in question, and if not, would it be possible to add them? I think it would be a benefit to gameplay if the diet mattered for sapience.

QTF but as i said before it should help you get sentience but not be a requirement

Getting the required materials should be a requirement, for realism. The alternative doesn't exactly add much to gameplay.

Evolving sapience as the player has already been conceptualised, the player must partake in enough of certain intelligent activity. As for AI, sapience is mostly random.

Deathbite42 wrote:

RagingBeaver wrote:

now my theory is that a system should be created in which the "brain" of your creature will improve based on the creature's needs - for example i have developed a more advanced organ a basic eye now in order to make it work my creature needs a place to analyze the simple data collected from that sensory organ and use it thus the brain is either created or upgraded to also serve that function so as your creature develops it's brain will get more advanced, but that is too much like SPORE's faulty system eat something grow better wings and suddenly you are a sentient being; let's give the player some control over the brain (besides it's positioning on the body) let's make the brain (or whatever you would have as a command center) something like a huge tech tree with long branches that you unlock through organs and improve by yourself and after you get more than 60% (but that's a random number and is up for balancing debate) your species begins to get more advanced thoughts and little by little through trial and error it becomes sentient.

No, you don't play as the creature when you are in the editor, but evolution itself. And a tech tree just for the brain? Imagine all the organs in the body and then imagine roadkill crying. Here's my system.
Basic-Most creatures are like this. An Earth example would be a fly.
Intelligent-A little smarter than everyone else. Only applies to a few specific groups, such as all primates. The dumbest of these don't even near sentience, like your orangutans.
Sentient-A LOT smarter. Only applies to a few individuals that have no other relation to each other. An Earth example would be dolphins or pigs.
Sapient- Builds tanks and does algebra. You play as the species destined to become it and play through aware and Awakening stage trying to be it. An Earth example would be humans.

wo wo wo my whole foundation of this game has be shaken so you don't control a species like in SPORE ? you play as evolution so you control multiple species?

RagingBeaver wrote:

Deathbite42 wrote:

RagingBeaver wrote:

now my theory is that a system should be created in which the "brain" of your creature will improve based on the creature's needs - for example i have developed a more advanced organ a basic eye now in order to make it work my creature needs a place to analyze the simple data collected from that sensory organ and use it thus the brain is either created or upgraded to also serve that function so as your creature develops it's brain will get more advanced, but that is too much like SPORE's faulty system eat something grow better wings and suddenly you are a sentient being; let's give the player some control over the brain (besides it's positioning on the body) let's make the brain (or whatever you would have as a command center) something like a huge tech tree with long branches that you unlock through organs and improve by yourself and after you get more than 60% (but that's a random number and is up for balancing debate) your species begins to get more advanced thoughts and little by little through trial and error it becomes sentient.

No, you don't play as the creature when you are in the editor, but evolution itself. And a tech tree just for the brain? Imagine all the organs in the body and then imagine roadkill crying. Here's my system.
Basic-Most creatures are like this. An Earth example would be a fly.
Intelligent-A little smarter than everyone else. Only applies to a few specific groups, such as all primates. The dumbest of these don't even near sentience, like your orangutans.
Sentient-A LOT smarter. Only applies to a few individuals that have no other relation to each other. An Earth example would be dolphins or pigs.
Sapient- Builds tanks and does algebra. You play as the species destined to become it and play through aware and Awakening stage trying to be it. An Earth example would be humans.

wo wo wo my whole foundation of this game has be shaken so you don't control a species like in SPORE ? you play as evolution so you control multiple species?

No, you play as one species, you may play as the one destined to be sapient. Other sentients are AIs, competing with you to become sapient. In the Editor, you play as evolution, but only the small part of evolution that changed your paricular species.

Deathbite42 wrote:

RagingBeaver wrote:

now my theory is that a system should be created in which the "brain" of your creature will improve based on the creature's needs - for example i have developed a more advanced organ a basic eye now in order to make it work my creature needs a place to analyze the simple data collected from that sensory organ and use it thus the brain is either created or upgraded to also serve that function so as your creature develops it's brain will get more advanced, but that is too much like SPORE's faulty system eat something grow better wings and suddenly you are a sentient being; let's give the player some control over the brain (besides it's positioning on the body) let's make the brain (or whatever you would have as a command center) something like a huge tech tree with long branches that you unlock through organs and improve by yourself and after you get more than 60% (but that's a random number and is up for balancing debate) your species begins to get more advanced thoughts and little by little through trial and error it becomes sentient.

No, you don't play as the creature when you are in the editor, but evolution itself. And a tech tree just for the brain? Imagine all the organs in the body and then imagine roadkill crying. Here's my system.
Basic-Most creatures are like this. An Earth example would be a fly.
Intelligent-A little smarter than everyone else. Only applies to a few specific groups, such as all primates. The dumbest of these don't even near sentience, like your orangutans.
Sentient-A LOT smarter. Only applies to a few individuals that have no other relation to each other. An Earth example would be dolphins or pigs.
Sapient- Builds tanks and does algebra. You play as the species destined to become it and play through aware and Awakening stage trying to be it. An Earth example would be humans.

RagingBeaver wrote:

The Uteen wrote:

If a herbivore gets enough nutrients in its diet to allow for a sapient brain, it should be possible for them to reach sapience.

Some humans are vegetarians for their entire life, so meat isn't strictly necessary for sapience, just the nutrients it contains. Herbivores with a similar diet to vegetarians, and some sort of need to develop sapience (such as in defence against a predator, sapience is a possible defence), should be able to develop sapience, while herbivores with insufficient amounts of the required nutrients in its diet would not.

Hopefully, our compounds system contains the compounds in question, and if not, would it be possible to add them? I think it would be a benefit to gameplay if the diet mattered for sapience.

QTF but as i said before it should help you get sentience but not be a requirement

No, sentience requires an advanced brain, which can only be fueled by Uteen's "compounds".

which in turn can only be fueled by an advanced diet... well when you put it that way it really does make sense

RagingBeaver wrote:

Deathbite42 wrote:

RagingBeaver wrote:

now my theory is that a system should be created in which the "brain" of your creature will improve based on the creature's needs - for example i have developed a more advanced organ a basic eye now in order to make it work my creature needs a place to analyze the simple data collected from that sensory organ and use it thus the brain is either created or upgraded to also serve that function so as your creature develops it's brain will get more advanced, but that is too much like SPORE's faulty system eat something grow better wings and suddenly you are a sentient being; let's give the player some control over the brain (besides it's positioning on the body) let's make the brain (or whatever you would have as a command center) something like a huge tech tree with long branches that you unlock through organs and improve by yourself and after you get more than 60% (but that's a random number and is up for balancing debate) your species begins to get more advanced thoughts and little by little through trial and error it becomes sentient.

No, you don't play as the creature when you are in the editor, but evolution itself. And a tech tree just for the brain? Imagine all the organs in the body and then imagine roadkill crying. Here's my system.
Basic-Most creatures are like this. An Earth example would be a fly.
Intelligent-A little smarter than everyone else. Only applies to a few specific groups, such as all primates. The dumbest of these don't even near sentience, like your orangutans.
Sentient-A LOT smarter. Only applies to a few individuals that have no other relation to each other. An Earth example would be dolphins or pigs.
Sapient- Builds tanks and does algebra. You play as the species destined to become it and play through aware and Awakening stage trying to be it. An Earth example would be humans.

RagingBeaver wrote:

The Uteen wrote:

If a herbivore gets enough nutrients in its diet to allow for a sapient brain, it should be possible for them to reach sapience.

Some humans are vegetarians for their entire life, so meat isn't strictly necessary for sapience, just the nutrients it contains. Herbivores with a similar diet to vegetarians, and some sort of need to develop sapience (such as in defence against a predator, sapience is a possible defence), should be able to develop sapience, while herbivores with insufficient amounts of the required nutrients in its diet would not.

Hopefully, our compounds system contains the compounds in question, and if not, would it be possible to add them? I think it would be a benefit to gameplay if the diet mattered for sapience.

QTF but as i said before it should help you get sentience but not be a requirement

No, sentience requires an advanced brain, which can only be fueled by Uteen's "compounds".

which in turn can only be fueled by an advanced diet... well when you put it that way it really does make sense

Good that I cleared it up.

i now agree my idea for a brain tech tree was not good; but that still doesn't get us anywhere... still how do you gain intelligence?

Deathbite42 wrote:

No, you play as one species, the one destined to be sapient.

Unlike Spore, Thrive gameplay is not linear, it's up to the player what their goal is, and whether they want to become sapient or not.

EDIT:

The Uteen wrote:

Evolving sapience as the player has already been conceptualised, the player must partake in enough of certain intelligent activity. As for AI, sapience is mostly random.

I edited that post to be more correct. Go back and look.

GamerXA wrote:

Since this topic seems to hinge around being able to build complex tech objects. Many other Organisms in the Real World can use items that we would consider in-game to be Tech Objects such as Crows, Apes and some domesticated dogs (though to a lesser extent). Albeit they mostly just use a stick and in the case of crows, wire.

This is an important step. Instead of having the Behaviour Trees on these Organisms filled up with a clutter of doing small individual steps eventually it would reach a point where, with enough repetition, these Behaviours to "Make a Hut by Placing Sticks" would just be replaced by just "Make a Hut". A certain number of these advancements based on the Tech Objects Complexity could warrant the advance to Sapience.

Why is it assumed that an alien race would always require shelter from atmospheric or extraplanetary dangers (e.g. fluctuating radiation levels from an unstable red dwarf)? What if a species that had evolved biological protection from the environment gained sapience? Although admittedly a large part of the human evolution towards intelligence and cooperation was owed to the fact that we were so physically inept we had backed ourselves into an evolutionary corner, it still seems restrictive and human-centric. On the other hand, there has to be a non-trivial use for tools in the environment, otherwise there's no demand for them and nothing gets accomplished. This seems like something we should tackle when we come to it.

That brings us to the question of if non-cooperative species (those species who do not form large groups involving tribal or eusocial hierarchies) could become sapient. I mean, obviously they should be able to reach the Awakening stage, but the whole civilization process was a result of collective knowledge being passed down and accumulated through the generations, so I doubt they should have to ability to progress on to the Society stage without radical adjustments in their social evolution. Now, can biological evolution still occur after Society stage begins? It probably should, given how even modern humans seem to be able to evolve rapidly as a result of technological and social trends. As a side note, Dunbar's Number should function as a simple control device for how large groups of the creatures tend to be, and should either be subject to change as societies expand (this would be absolutely necessary for eusocial creatures like ants), or the species should be forced to organize themselves into small economic or familial units such as those we see in modern human society.

My two cents.

Mouthwash wrote:

GamerXA wrote:

Since this topic seems to hinge around being able to build complex tech objects. Many other Organisms in the Real World can use items that we would consider in-game to be Tech Objects such as Crows, Apes and some domesticated dogs (though to a lesser extent). Albeit they mostly just use a stick and in the case of crows, wire.

This is an important step. Instead of having the Behaviour Trees on these Organisms filled up with a clutter of doing small individual steps eventually it would reach a point where, with enough repetition, these Behaviours to "Make a Hut by Placing Sticks" would just be replaced by just "Make a Hut". A certain number of these advancements based on the Tech Objects Complexity could warrant the advance to Sapience.

Why is it assumed that an alien race would always require shelter from atmospheric or extraplanetary dangers (e.g. fluctuating radiation levels from an unstable red dwarf)? What if a species that had evolved biological protection from the environment gained sapience? Although admittedly a large part of the human evolution towards intelligence and cooperation was owed to the fact that we were so physically inept we had backed ourselves into an evolutionary corner, it still seems restrictive and human-centric. On the other hand, there has to be a non-trivial use for tools in the environment, otherwise there's no demand for them and nothing gets accomplished. This seems like something we should tackle when we come to it.

That brings us to the question of if non-cooperative species (those species who do not form large groups involving tribal or eusocialitical hierarchies) could become sapient. I mean, obviously they should be able to reach the Awakening stage, but the whole civilization process was a result of collective knowledge being passed down and accumulated through the generations, so I doubt they should have to ability to progress on to the Society stage without radical adjustments in their social evolution. Can biological evolution still occur after Society stage begins? It probably should, given how even modern humans seem to be able to evolve rapidly as a result of technological and social trends. As a side note, Dunbar's Number should function as a simple control device for how large groups of the creatures tend to be, and should be subject to change as societies expand.

My two cents.

Ok, but dont necropost.

WilliamstheJohn wrote:

Ok, but dont necropost.

What does it matter? This thread was on the front page. It's not like it was dead and buried, I just came on this section to post some opinions and found this an appropriate thread to do it.

WilliamstheJohn wrote:

Ok, but dont necropost.

First off, this is only a couple months ago. Also, don't be hard on him, it was a contributory post.

@Mouthwash: Evolution effectively stops in the Awakening, Society, Industrial, and Space Stage's, for reasons of unwanted complexity for development.

NickTheNick wrote:

WilliamstheJohn wrote:

Ok, but dont necropost.

First off, this is only a couple months ago. Also, don't be hard on him, it was a contributory post.

@Mouthwash: Evolution effectively stops in the Awakening, Society, Industrial, and Space Stage's, for reasons of unwanted complexity for development.

Ok, sory for that. Sometimes happens to me. But yes, evolution stops at that point when you get to sapience.There should still be things like shaving, but yeah, evolution stops on here.

What about social evolution? As I pointed out, it involves a bit of biological evolution. Could it still work after after Society stage begins? Social changes are inherent to societal progress. I'm not saying that we should be able to add more legs while in the medieval period, just that we could make our species form larger groups and behave differently.

Yes that is there.

When I played Spore once, I had a species called the Arvan that were too short to get to the pieces of fruit in the trees, and there was no mechanic for climbing/jumping for them, so I picked up a stick on the ground, and told the creature to throw it at the fruit. Lo and behold, the fruit was knocked out of the tree and I could get it.

Long story short, using pieces of the environment to adapt to a lack of stature, would this be rewarded as gaining intelligence or not?

That would be the way of gaining inteligence, performing more complicated actions.

Okay, what about the carnivores, they're being left out.:(

They are definitely getting the nutrients needed, as the compounds system allows that, I guess. So how about using more of the social behaviors, such as pack hunting, and advanced communication and tactics, think wolves or raptors, one or more individuals would be used to separate weak prey animals from the strong ones. Then the other pack members would move in for the kill.

Then of course we have scavengers, maybe a path would be ways for them to intelligently steal kills or even going so far to actually kill animals themselves or killing the predators. (think hyenas versus lions, some hyenas have managed to kill lions)

Just throwing ideas out there. Will retract post if unnecessary.

I am in agreement that performing complex actions boosts the path to intelligence. Perhaps we could have a number of progress bars (visible to the player, or not) and once the player fills these they unlock the tech editor. This would encourage people to develop different areas such as hunting/foraging, shelter building, use of tools, communication. I like the idea of behaviour contributing to this, like hunting tactics. Then all we have to do is decide how much each action contributes and to where. What do you think?

I'm not sure how important diet is to this. It sounds like unnecessary complication and should only really contribute a few points anyway.

The vibe I have been getting is that the strategy used by the organism to live is what affects gaining intelligence, from this thread. The progress bars thing seems to have been decided on, but I am not 100% certain.