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Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:43 am
Back again. Because I was quoted in the OP, I feel somewhat entitled to comment. Even if I'm still wassailing. Sorry in advance.
Anything that allows players too many options is a mistake. Don't forget that this is an early gameplay mode, and we want to retain the ability to reward players by unlocking new gameplay modes as they fulfill goals. I think that they should be able to call in a "flock" of cells if they have the appropriate communicative organelle; otherwise, they're on their own.
Gluers seem vital. What do they do before you assimilate them? Glue other proto-cells together to make themselves scarier? Worth discussing.
I got my GF interested in this game concept over the past few weeks, and we've been watching a great many documentaries about the origins of life on Earth (thanks NetFlix). An interesting point she came up with was: "And all those bacteria are still living in our guts!"
How can we give the player new organelles? Must they kill everything they come across? Are there any other ways to beat this "stage"? If not, we would do well to define it clearly - including "win conditions" (which open up new gameplay modes and progres the player). Bashi could use some clear, simple dynamics like this. Cell should get done, and soon.
~sciocont Overall Team Lead
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Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:12 pm
Thanks for stopping by Redstar. One of the ways to gain new organelles would be to be infected by a virus- it's estimated that about 20% of human DNA has come from viruses (or something like that). If a virus does not take down a cell, the cell can use its DNA, which may give it new organelles or abilities. And it's pretty much a cell-eat-cell world out there.
The Uteen Sandbox Team Lead
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Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:15 pm
~sciocont wrote:
Noitulove wrote:
So the Cell Stage will be in 3D?
Good Belgium, what have I missed?
Anyhow I think it'll be interesting and bring something new to the table. I think we can all agree it'll be more realistic--think about it. In real life cells doesn't just go in two dimensions. Or have eyes. Or mate by dancing.
So my vote goes to approval of the descision.
I'm saying in cell stage that the models sould be 3d, but you should have a fixed camera point.
Fixed camera point? So you can't move the camera... But you can still move in 3 dimensions, right? Forwards and back?
Pezzalis Regular
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Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:34 pm
The Uteen wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
Noitulove wrote:
So the Cell Stage will be in 3D?
Good Belgium, what have I missed?
Anyhow I think it'll be interesting and bring something new to the table. I think we can all agree it'll be more realistic--think about it. In real life cells doesn't just go in two dimensions. Or have eyes. Or mate by dancing.
So my vote goes to approval of the descision.
I'm saying in cell stage that the models sould be 3d, but you should have a fixed camera point.
Fixed camera point? So you can't move the camera... But you can still move in 3 dimensions, right? Forwards and back?
Well we always percieve Cells in 2D because we are used to viewing them on a seemingly 2D Plane - The microscope slide. Basically at this stage its like aquatic life except on a reaaaaally small scale. Perhaps to make things easier it should be:
WASD/Click for left, right, up, down on the X-Y 2D plane. Scroll up to move up along the Z axis Scroll down to move down along the Z axis.
Things beneath you cell should appear blurred and out of focus (Or maybe not present if your cell is unable to sense them - Chemunication? I know thats not a word :P), things above you cell could occasionally flash across the screen or, if your cell has an eyespot, dim the screen when they pass over.
Like this game, flOw
Spoiler:
Now as for what Redstar said about stage criteria. I think that a certain amount of Gluers, Sharers, any kind of the movement cells (Flagella, cilia, pseudopod etc) and any kind of 'eater' are necessary to finish unicellular stage. This way your multicellular colony has a way to bond, breed and attain energy.
Perhaps those are some more ways that unicellular/multicellular could affect the outcome... Assimilate lots of Flagella-boasting cells, you end up with a tail in early org mode like a fish, cillia gives lots of tiny legs or tentacles, pseudopod makes you like a worm/slug. Its far from realistic but easier to include in the game. Just a thought. Kinda vague too
Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:10 pm
Pezzalis wrote:
The organelle eyespot should give a meter on the GUI showing how intense light is there, and a group of eyespot-intense cells in an early multi-cellular should give a more clear depiction (More accurate....?)
Then perhaps from these areas Eye-Cups can form. (perhaps giving a direction to a light intense area...)
Actually, it might be interesting to see if players could figure out to actually place light-sensitive patches in a cup formation to be able to figure out direction... Hmmm....
Pezzalis wrote:
What do people think of the Early-Multicellular stage concept? Is there anything that needs to be seriously altered?
It seems okay, but are we all remembering that there is no way around making a sharp transition from this editor to the OE?
As to the 3D thing, all the proposed controll scheme are not 3D thus far. They are multiple 2D planes. They only way I see to do effective 3D control that I know of is to you classic reticle-style aiming with the mouse.
The Uteen Sandbox Team Lead
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Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:00 am
Pezzalis wrote:
WASD/Click for left, right, up, down on the X-Y 2D plane. Scroll up to move up along the Z axis Scroll down to move down along the Z axis.
You mean back and forward along the z axis?
And multiple 2D panes sounds cool.
And can't pure 3D control be direction buttons and scroll for up and down? That's how I'd imagine it...
And, why exactly do we have to go for the microscope-slide thing? Why can't this stage be pure 3D, like aquatic? Not trying to argue, I'm just curious why you want standard microbe gaming approach to be used, rather than the realistic approach.
Pezzalis Regular
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Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:36 pm
The Uteen wrote:
Pezzalis wrote:
WASD/Click for left, right, up, down on the X-Y 2D plane. Scroll up to move up along the Z axis Scroll down to move down along the Z axis.
You mean back and forward along the z axis?
And multiple 2D panes sounds cool.
And can't pure 3D control be direction buttons and scroll for up and down? That's how I'd imagine it...
And, why exactly do we have to go for the microscope-slide thing? Why can't this stage be pure 3D, like aquatic? Not trying to argue, I'm just curious why you want standard microbe gaming approach to be used, rather than the realistic approach.
Pure 3D Control in a volume (Ie air or water) would probably handle in the same way as flight sims as to account for pitch yaw and roll. But in the sense that you don't have to keep moving forwards like a plane. I dont think any of those are really necessary at cell stage...
But as for why Cell stage should be played on multiple Planes... I think its more for simplicity.
3D control at that scale is quite hard to imagine but I actually think it could be possible.
The Uteen Sandbox Team Lead
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Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:46 pm
Pezzalis wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
Pezzalis wrote:
WASD/Click for left, right, up, down on the X-Y 2D plane. Scroll up to move up along the Z axis Scroll down to move down along the Z axis.
You mean back and forward along the z axis?
And multiple 2D panes sounds cool.
And can't pure 3D control be direction buttons and scroll for up and down? That's how I'd imagine it...
And, why exactly do we have to go for the microscope-slide thing? Why can't this stage be pure 3D, like aquatic? Not trying to argue, I'm just curious why you want standard microbe gaming approach to be used, rather than the realistic approach.
Pure 3D Control in a volume (Ie air or water) would probably handle in the same way as flight sims as to account for pitch yaw and roll. But in the sense that you don't have to keep moving forwards like a plane. I dont think any of those are really necessary at cell stage...
But as for why Cell stage should be played on multiple Planes... I think its more for simplicity.
3D control at that scale is quite hard to imagine but I actually think it could be possible.
Good point, you don't have to keep moving forwards. But it still could be made fully 3D, it wouldn't be that hard, easier than sea and air, and would be a new fun way of doing it.
But go for 2D if you want, it'll still be better than any other game of its type, if all goes to plan.
Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:29 pm
I wrote:
It seems okay, but are we all remembering that there is no way around making a sharp transition from this editor to the OE?
Reposting for response.
Pezzalis Regular
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Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:16 pm
Tenebrarum wrote:
I wrote:
It seems okay, but are we all remembering that there is no way around making a sharp transition from this editor to the OE?
Reposting for response.
Well the microbe editor is going to start in 3D isn't it?
Excluding Auto Evo, what if for Multicellular you were given a certain number of cells to 'add' to your colony every generation?
It will be much the same as the cellular editor except you can't add organelles, you would instead be able to add cells, copy cells, increase certain traits of some cells (IE make them tougher, make some of them excrete digestive enzymes) and move them around a bit. Every time you specialize a cell you can produce it from a pallete and use its icon as a quick use-selection without having to specialize each individual cell. Each generation you attain more and more cells to work with. As this gets more and more complicated you will be moving around many cells at a time as your colony gets larger. The editor is still in 3D and the colony at this stage will be quite big. Perhaps at this stage you could connect large areas of cells onto certain areas of the colony/organism. For example, A large area of tough cells in a point makes a defensive spike, a long section of stinging cells makes a jelly-fish like tendril, as discussed, a curvature of light-sensitive cells in a cup formation gives light direction sensors. These sections could be created yourself or selected from a pallete. Essentially these are the first 'Parts'.
Now as you progress from late multicellular to early Organism (On a side note are Multicellular/Organism/Aware 3 Different Stages? Would make sense) you will eventually be able to create and or select more complex parts such as eyecups, digestive tracts, limbs etc. These will phase into the even more complicated selections of editing options as your organism itself becomes more complex IE Hands, Eyes, Brains etc. Until eventually, The OE in its full glory is accessible.
Thoughts?
Mysterious_Calligrapher Biome Team Lead
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Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:59 pm
This is logical and quite in depth, but I'm pretty sure that Scio vetoed the "paint on cell types" because it would be too complicated. However, I'm pretty sure a more rudimentary "assign cell groups roles" (ie stinging cells, digestive,) is going to be a necessary go-between.
~sciocont Overall Team Lead
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Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:44 pm
Seems a bit too complex. I'd rather go with the sharp transition, but start out the OE with low cell-count orgs.
Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:48 pm
~sciocont wrote:
Seems a bit too complex. I'd rather go with the sharp transition, but start out the OE with low cell-count orgs.
QFT
2creator Newcomer
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Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:46 pm
How will we inform the player about controls and the necessity of cells like gluers? I know dialogue and hint boxes can be immersion breaking but how do we expect the player to learn the controls without a tutorial? Are they just going to be thrown into the deep end? Not knowing how to play a game at the beginning can seriously deter players.
~sciocont Overall Team Lead
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Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:44 pm
2creator wrote:
How will we inform the player about controls and the necessity of cells like gluers? I know dialogue and hint boxes can be immersion breaking but how do we expect the player to learn the controls without a tutorial? Are they just going to be thrown into the deep end? Not knowing how to play a game at the beginning can seriously deter players.
Start with text and whatnot, if we think of a better way, we'll patch it in.
Mysterious_Calligrapher Biome Team Lead
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Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:07 pm
I have to agree with scio, here. See, thiis is one of the most complicated transitions in the game because it's all visible, rather than under the hood like sentience. Maybe having hints that can be turned on or off? Other games have it, it shouldn't be too hard.
Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:30 pm
Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
I have to agree with scio, here. See, thiis is one of the most complicated transitions in the game because it's all visible, rather than under the hood like sentience. Maybe having hints that can be turned on or off? Other games have it, it shouldn't be too hard.
Already agreed to have toggleable hints.
Pezzalis Regular
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Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:05 pm
So one thing we need to figure out is how we will transition from a colony to a single entity.
Any ideas...?
The Uteen Sandbox Team Lead
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Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:40 pm
Pezzalis wrote:
So one thing we need to figure out is how we will transition from a colony to a single entity.
Any ideas...?
When you zoom in, there should be a limit (to stop you seeing lack of detail, and to stop you going stupidly over-zoomed). As your colony gets bigger, you can zoom in less, so as the cells become less and less visible, the gameplay becomes more like the multicellular one, with the arrow keys allowing feeble wriggling of the colony (an attempt at swimming, basically the colony begins to act as a whole), and the cells become less customisable (each of those things you absorb in single-cell can no longer be absorbed, you can't change cell positions, etc.).
I think a slow, steady change like this should work okay. Introducing the new controls one at a time and replacing old single/colony cell controls should make this, probably the biggest transition in the game, fairly smooth.
Poisson Regular
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Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:07 pm
@ Uteen: That sounds like a really good idea!
Commander Keen Industrial Team Lead
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Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:11 pm
Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:43 pm
Uteen, that's a good idea, but I cannot begin to imagine implementing it. We're still talking about going from one mutually exclusive editor to another. For example: The wriggling you mentioned requires muscles, which are not present pre-multicellular.
~sciocont Overall Team Lead
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Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:23 pm
I think the Org editor should be opened once you have eviolved differentiated cells. Once your creature has more than one type of cell, you get the OE. This would mean life will probably start as a jellyfish like organism, just a step above lower cnidarians like the hydra.
Pezzalis Regular
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Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:54 am
Okies people, I have more or less overhauled my idea on how Cell specialization in colonies will work, and have added this to the OP.
It is not 100%, not quite 60% and probably not 30% compliant with our current niches concept, so this section needs quite a bit of rigorous thought on how it could be implemented.
Spoiler:
Cell Specialization *UPDATED*
This section is still a bit iffy but recently several sparks of ideas, sketches, simplification of real life systems and processes has led me to the following. Whether this section will be handled manually or by auto evo (TBD), this is what we have so far. Specialized cells in early Multicellular gameplay will be different to those of single celled gameplay. As of now, here is a big old list of the types of cells that can form (Or be placed) in your colony.
Locomotive cells: Cells that have certain organelles that specialize in movement.
Pseudopodia: Cells that can change their shape to allow movement IE. Amoeba, White blood cells.
Types/Functions of Pseudopodia:
Creepers: Allow slug like movement at a low energy cost for surrounding/attached cells. + Slow Localized movement - Small ATP
Engulfers: In large colonies, can break off from the colony and 'engulf' any parasitic or harmful cell in the organism by Phagocytosis (Basically a fundamental white blood cell). +Immune response, or increases health/disease resistance. - Small ATP
Ciliates: Round cells covered in hundereds of small, fine thread-like cilia.
Types/Functions of Ciliates:
Beaters - Cilia beats to allow motion to the cell and cells within a radius attached to it., but it is not as effective as Wrigglers. + Medium Localized movement - Medium ATP
Pushers - In large colonies, when lining a small tube-section of a colony, they can beat to push food along the tube. + Digestive efficiency + Function - Medium ATP
Flagellates: Egg-shaped cells with a long, mobile whip like thread called a Flagella.
Types/Functions of Flagellates:
Wrigglers - The flagella is beat back and forth to allow motion to the cell and cells within a radius attached to it. + Fast localized movement - Large ATP
Anglers - In large colonies, the flagella is covered in an adhesive substance and can stick to food particles or prey and pull it towards the cell. + Energy from food + Function - Large ATP
Physiological Cells: Cells which deal with digestion, ATP production, waste, and metabolic functions.
Secretory Cells: Longs vase shaped cells with an organelle at one end which secretes special fluids in the pointed direction. (Essentially gland cells).
Types/Functions of Secretory Cells:
Digesters: Secrete fluids/enzymes which break down food particles. + Function + Digestive efficiency
Odourants: Secrete a fluid which repels larger organisms (Or organisms of a certain type) + Function - Medium ATP
Chummers: Secrete a fluid which attracts smaller organisms (Or certain types of organisms) +Function - Medium ATP
Absorbers: Grooved box-shaped cells (More surface area for diffusion) which absorb certain materials.
Types/Functions of Absorbers:
Eaters: Absorb all food material in a radius and convert it to ATP + Large ATP
Breathers: ONLY in large colonies, absorb oxygen from outside of colony and transport to the interior cells for respiration. (At this scale it can be done under the hood, could be displayed as vein like structures forming) + Function + ATP gained from food
Offensive and Defensive Cells Any cells concerned with the defense or offense of the colony. This section contains many different types of cells.
Shield Cells: Tube shaped cells which are used defensively.
Types/Functions of Shield Cells:
Platers: Have a thick membrane which is very hard to break, can form shells when placed around other cells. + Colony Health/Defense + Function
Stinging Cells Contain a sub organelle called a cnida which can inject poison into any cell that touches it.
Types/Functions of Stinging cells:
Stingers: Inflict damage to all organelles in the victim cell. + Function - Medium ATP
Dissolvers: Break down the inside of the victim cell for digestion + Function - Medium ATP
Paralyzers: Immobilise the victim cell. + Function - Medium ATP
Sensory Cells These are cells which account for senses such as heat, light, chemicals etc
Eye cells: Oval cells, sensitive to light, give the player a light sensor and a wider FOV, and a warning if the light becomes to dim (for photosynthetics) or too intense. + Light Sensor
Thermo cells: Disc shaped cells, sensitive to heat, give the player a heat sensor and a warning system if the temperature is too cold or too hot. + Heat sensor
pH Cells: Bullet shaped cells, sensitive to extreme pH levels, be they low or high. Adds a warning system. +Chemical sensor
Feelers: Long, thin cells, a very simple version of a nerve cell, gives the colony a sensitivity to large vibrations in the water. Can help increase awareness of larger organisms. + Presence awareness bar
Reproductive Cells The aforementioned 'Sharing Cell' has undergone some modifications.
Hormone Cell When the colony is old enough, the hormone cells will activate, releasing hormones into the surrounding area. These hormones will attract another of your species with which you can mate sexually. At this stage (if your colony is small enough) you can also asexually reproduce, by 'budding' you mating cells, forming colonies identical to your current one. Why you'd do this, I don't know. I guess if you can't find a mate or if you are close to death.
Mating Cells These mating cells, when active will be able to exchange DNA with other mating cells as long as they are the same species. If your colony has more than one mating cell they can asexually reproduce. If you have released hormones to attract a mate you can sexually reproduce with them by connecting the mating cells and activating them. When the two cells are together they will fuse (Giving the full chromosome number) and form what is essentially a zygote.
Depending on whats happening with Auto-Evo or the OE,
Auto-Evo: This zygote will divide, and as it does so it will offer certain traits such as "Increase Plater Thickness" Or "Increase Plater Count", giving you various options to add or decrease certain traits/cells to your liking.
OE: Your colony will be opened up in the colony editor. Here you can spend "Diversity Points - (A number determined by how many times your whole colony died, how many cells in your colony died, and basically the population size of your species and thus the likeliness of mutations) on things such as new cells, new traits, and improvements of existing cells.
Ok. SO its not really 100%. There is HEAPS to add, and heaps to work out and simplify for effective gameplay.
You will notice that I have seriously stripped down the types of cells and left out many key functional cells. This is because a lot of them can be done behind the scenes and/or later in the game when you are not viewing them at a cellular level (Things such as nervous systems or muscle cells). I have also given them names that the common gamer can associate with a function as opposed to the full on confusing scientific names. I have sorted them under a not-so-good type setting as opposed to function (IE Flagellates as opposed to Movement cells).
I also think that Multicellular/Colony stage should be a different 'section' to single cellular and Organism mode. The main difference between Colony and Organism mode is that as Bashi has stated, Organism mode technically begins when you are a single 3 dimensional entity. Colony also doesn't have much in the way to do with niches or many of the other aspects relating to the current Organism concepts.
But thaaaaaats just my opinion
I hope you can make sense of my concept
~Pezz
Pezzalis Regular
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Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:06 am
I've also been thinking about the current niche concepts. Then something hit me that I can't believe I didn't really see before.
Plankton.
Plankton on earth are defined by their niche rather than their classification, so I think that this early multicellular stage could be done quite easily with different variations of a pelagic, planktonic ecosystem.
What if at the start of each game, you start in a randomly selected (or a chosen) pelagic biome? You start there as a prokaryote and can leave when you enter full-3D organism mode.
(Could be tropical, freshwater, polar, etc and different global locations and water types will determine different niches).
Heres an example:
Spoiler:
Tropical Pelagic
- Where: The Pelagic zone, in tropical waters (Open water, close to surface, far from shore)
- Elevation: 0-200m below sea level.
- Resoruces: Salt water
- Climate: Tropical
- Topography: None, too small to survive deep water pressures, just open water.
- Biodiversity: Large
- Niches for autotrophs:
Phytoplankton Autotrophic, prokaryotic organisms that live near the water surface where there is sufficient light to support photosynthesis. (Like diatoms, cyanobacteria etc). (Anything that has assimilated lots of Light Eaters, and is single celled) Scale: Single celled - Tiny/Miniscule (Invisible/green goop to anything larger than a small organism)
- Trophic levels for heterotrophs:
Protozoic Zooplankton - protozoans that feed on phytoplankton and other protozoic zoolplankton. Scale: Single celled - Tiny/Miniscule (Invisible to anything larger than a small organism)
Metazoic Zooplankton - Multicellular planktic organisms that feed on Protozoic Zooplankton and Phytoplankton. Scale: Tiny (1-20cm)
Small Feeders - Feed on Metazoic Zooplankton Scale: Small (20-100cm)
Large Feeders - Carnivores which feed on Small feeders, some filter feeders, and each-other. Scale: Midsize-Large
Filter Feeders - Feed on all planktic life-forms. Scale: Midsize-Gargantuan (Like manta-rays, Basking sharks and Whales).
- Others: This is a primary Biome, and can be selected as the first biome that a single celled organism will begin in. When you enter full-3D organism stage, you will not of course be able to see the single celled organisms. Phytoplankton density will appear as a green goop, small metazoic zooplankton will appear as small moving white specs (Like krill).
We will probably need to make quite a few for varied early gameplay.
Thoughts?
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Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism
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