Thrive Game Development
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Thrive Game Development

Development of the evolution game Thrive.
 
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 From a Colony of Cells to an Organism

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Redstar
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Tenebrarum
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~sciocont
Xenopologist
Darkgamma
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kaosrain
The Uteen
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Mysterious_Calligrapher
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From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyTue Jan 04, 2011 10:59 pm

This is logical and quite in depth, but I'm pretty sure that Scio vetoed the "paint on cell types" because it would be too complicated.
However, I'm pretty sure a more rudimentary "assign cell groups roles" (ie stinging cells, digestive,) is going to be a necessary go-between.
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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyWed Jan 05, 2011 7:44 pm

Seems a bit too complex. I'd rather go with the sharp transition, but start out the OE with low cell-count orgs.
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Tenebrarum
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From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyFri Jan 07, 2011 6:48 pm

~sciocont wrote:
Seems a bit too complex. I'd rather go with the sharp transition, but start out the OE with low cell-count orgs.
QFT
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2creator
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From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyFri Jan 07, 2011 8:46 pm

How will we inform the player about controls and the necessity of cells like gluers? I know dialogue and hint boxes can be immersion breaking but how do we expect the player to learn the controls without a tutorial? Are they just going to be thrown into the deep end? Not knowing how to play a game at the beginning can seriously deter players.
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~sciocont
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From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyFri Jan 07, 2011 11:44 pm

2creator wrote:
How will we inform the player about controls and the necessity of cells like gluers? I know dialogue and hint boxes can be immersion breaking but how do we expect the player to learn the controls without a tutorial? Are they just going to be thrown into the deep end? Not knowing how to play a game at the beginning can seriously deter players.
Start with text and whatnot, if we think of a better way, we'll patch it in.
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Mysterious_Calligrapher
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From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptySat Jan 08, 2011 12:07 pm

I have to agree with scio, here. See, thiis is one of the most complicated transitions in the game because it's all visible, rather than under the hood like sentience.
Maybe having hints that can be turned on or off? Other games have it, it shouldn't be too hard.
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Tenebrarum
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From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptySun Jan 09, 2011 1:30 pm

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
I have to agree with scio, here. See, thiis is one of the most complicated transitions in the game because it's all visible, rather than under the hood like sentience.
Maybe having hints that can be turned on or off? Other games have it, it shouldn't be too hard.
Already agreed to have toggleable hints.
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Pezzalis
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From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyMon Jan 17, 2011 10:05 pm

So one thing we need to figure out is how we will transition from a colony to a single entity.

Any ideas...?
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The Uteen
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PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyTue Jan 18, 2011 12:40 pm

Pezzalis wrote:
So one thing we need to figure out is how we will transition from a colony to a single entity.

Any ideas...?

When you zoom in, there should be a limit (to stop you seeing lack of detail, and to stop you going stupidly over-zoomed). As your colony gets bigger, you can zoom in less, so as the cells become less and less visible, the gameplay becomes more like the multicellular one, with the arrow keys allowing feeble wriggling of the colony (an attempt at swimming, basically the colony begins to act as a whole), and the cells become less customisable (each of those things you absorb in single-cell can no longer be absorbed, you can't change cell positions, etc.).

I think a slow, steady change like this should work okay. Introducing the new controls one at a time and replacing old single/colony cell controls should make this, probably the biggest transition in the game, fairly smooth.
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Poisson
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PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyTue Jan 18, 2011 3:07 pm

@ Uteen: That sounds like a really good idea!
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Commander Keen
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PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyTue Jan 18, 2011 3:11 pm

Yeah, really good idea.
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Tenebrarum
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PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyTue Jan 18, 2011 5:43 pm

Uteen, that's a good idea, but I cannot begin to imagine implementing it. We're still talking about going from one mutually exclusive editor to another. For example: The wriggling you mentioned requires muscles, which are not present pre-multicellular.
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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyTue Jan 18, 2011 10:23 pm

I think the Org editor should be opened once you have eviolved differentiated cells. Once your creature has more than one type of cell, you get the OE. This would mean life will probably start as a jellyfish like organism, just a step above lower cnidarians like the hydra.
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Pezzalis
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PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyMon Mar 14, 2011 7:54 am

Okies people, I have more or less overhauled my idea on how Cell specialization in colonies will work, and have added this to the OP.

It is not 100%, not quite 60% and probably not 30% compliant with our current niches concept, so this section needs quite a bit of rigorous thought on how it could be implemented.

Spoiler:

I also think that Multicellular/Colony stage should be a different 'section' to single cellular and Organism mode. The main difference between Colony and Organism mode is that as Bashi has stated, Organism mode technically begins when you are a single 3 dimensional entity. Colony also doesn't have much in the way to do with niches or many of the other aspects relating to the current Organism concepts.

But thaaaaaats just my opinion

I hope you can make sense of my concept

~Pezz
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Pezzalis
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PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyTue Mar 15, 2011 12:06 am

I've also been thinking about the current niche concepts.
Then something hit me that I can't believe I didn't really see before.

Plankton.

Plankton on earth are defined by their niche rather than their classification, so I think that this early multicellular stage could be done quite easily with different variations of a pelagic, planktonic ecosystem.

What if at the start of each game, you start in a randomly selected (or a chosen) pelagic biome? You start there as a prokaryote and can leave when you enter full-3D organism mode.

(Could be tropical, freshwater, polar, etc and different global locations and water types will determine different niches).

Heres an example:

Spoiler:

We will probably need to make quite a few for varied early gameplay.

Thoughts?
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Tenebrarum
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PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyTue Mar 15, 2011 4:32 pm

Question: Our auto-evo requires template organisms, right? Thoughts?
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Pezzalis
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PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyTue Mar 15, 2011 8:01 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
Question: Our auto-evo requires template organisms, right? Thoughts?

There will probably be a set number of cells (At this point there probably won't be individual cells but your creature will be divided into cell clusters with functions as far as game mechanics go) that when you pass it you will go from 2d -3d.
SO if your something like a daphnia, you will go from seeing it like this:

From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 Photo_Daphnia_magna

To this:

From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 Daphnia


Im may not seem like such a big change, but we have been discussing these template organisms...

How about a couple generations before you reach the 2D-3D cell cap, the game could *somehow* determine the main shape, movement, energy production and structural material (Ie lots of platers around the exterior of the colony or no platers but lots of stingers), of the colony, and relate it to one of our template orgs.

So we would probably have to make a whole batch of template orgs for all the possible combinations, which with crowd-sourcing would probably not be too hard (200-500..?)

So for something like the above Daphnia:

Shape: Round - Egg if we are being extraspecific

Movement: Contractile Muscle Cells
(Muscle cells will form from large areas of other movement cells - not altogether scientific but function-wise it will work and it will be done 'behind the scenes' when individual cells are phased out).

Energy production: Respiration

Materials: (Probably represented as a ratio to determine what goes where or how it is distributed about the shape of the body) Includes Platers, Eaters, Feelers, Eye Cells etc.

Now from all these factors, perhaps the game could pick the closest match out of our 3D template organisms and during the next few generations phase in features from them? Then when you go full 3D you more or less assume their shape?

Thoughts? (BTW the last couple posts by me are rather important, please read them )


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Tenebrarum
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PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyTue Mar 15, 2011 8:13 pm

Best idea yet Pezz!

And it could easily relate organisms based on the similarities of their share codes.
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Pezzalis
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PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyTue Mar 15, 2011 8:15 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
Best idea yet Pezz!

And it could easily relate organisms based on the similarities of their share codes.

Yes that too

So are we having Biomes for microbial and Colony stage? I mean it would be cool if a gargantuan filter feeder swam right by your colony. Or even swallowed you XD
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kaosrain
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PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyTue Mar 15, 2011 8:32 pm

Good ,but what about muscle valves? how will we create them?
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PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyTue Mar 15, 2011 8:39 pm

kaosrain wrote:
Good ,but what about muscle valves? how will we create them?


We can essentially cheat with most muscle related cells.

If not I guess for some colonies there will be certain cells that can de-stick and re-stick to allow food substances through, and in order to open the will need a mover nearby so I guess later in gameplay these moves will become muscle cells I guess valves could form to allow blood/substances/anything else through?
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PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyThu Mar 17, 2011 1:21 pm

And for excretory systems systems the same?
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PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyThu Mar 17, 2011 8:58 pm

kaosrain wrote:
And for excretory systems systems the same?

Yeah I guess... And perhaps sphincters can form at this level too... or not.
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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptySun Mar 20, 2011 1:05 pm

I'm really loving your ideas here, Pezz!
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PostSubject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism   From a Colony of Cells to an Organism - Page 3 EmptyMon Mar 21, 2011 6:22 am

~sciocont wrote:
I'm really loving your ideas here, Pezz!

Thx scio!

Let me re-iterate a few things for a second.
I more or less clicked onto this while re-reading my above post.

Pezzalis wrote:
(At this point there probably won't be individual cells but your creature will be divided into cell clusters with functions as far as game mechanics go)

What's an easier name for these clusters? Parts.

I think your right scio about the basic OE coming into play as soon as a colonies cells start to specialize as thats when certain cells have different functions and thus arrangement is essential. It makes a lot of sense.
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