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| From a Colony of Cells to an Organism | |
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+14Redstar US_of_Alaska Noitulove Tenebrarum Smothmoth Commander Keen ~sciocont Xenopologist Darkgamma specialk2121 kaosrain The Uteen andry796 Pezzalis 18 posters | |
Author | Message |
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Mysterious_Calligrapher Biome Team Lead
Posts : 1034 Reputation : 26 Join date : 2010-11-26 Age : 32 Location : Earth, the solar system, the milky way...
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:59 pm | |
| This is logical and quite in depth, but I'm pretty sure that Scio vetoed the "paint on cell types" because it would be too complicated. However, I'm pretty sure a more rudimentary "assign cell groups roles" (ie stinging cells, digestive,) is going to be a necessary go-between. | |
| | | ~sciocont Overall Team Lead
Posts : 3406 Reputation : 138 Join date : 2010-07-06
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:44 pm | |
| Seems a bit too complex. I'd rather go with the sharp transition, but start out the OE with low cell-count orgs. | |
| | | Tenebrarum Society Team Lead
Posts : 1179 Reputation : 32 Join date : 2010-10-01 Age : 31 Location : ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:48 pm | |
| - ~sciocont wrote:
- Seems a bit too complex. I'd rather go with the sharp transition, but start out the OE with low cell-count orgs.
QFT | |
| | | 2creator Newcomer
Posts : 69 Reputation : 0 Join date : 2010-10-14 Location : The interwebs
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:46 pm | |
| How will we inform the player about controls and the necessity of cells like gluers? I know dialogue and hint boxes can be immersion breaking but how do we expect the player to learn the controls without a tutorial? Are they just going to be thrown into the deep end? Not knowing how to play a game at the beginning can seriously deter players. | |
| | | ~sciocont Overall Team Lead
Posts : 3406 Reputation : 138 Join date : 2010-07-06
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:44 pm | |
| - 2creator wrote:
- How will we inform the player about controls and the necessity of cells like gluers? I know dialogue and hint boxes can be immersion breaking but how do we expect the player to learn the controls without a tutorial? Are they just going to be thrown into the deep end? Not knowing how to play a game at the beginning can seriously deter players.
Start with text and whatnot, if we think of a better way, we'll patch it in. | |
| | | Mysterious_Calligrapher Biome Team Lead
Posts : 1034 Reputation : 26 Join date : 2010-11-26 Age : 32 Location : Earth, the solar system, the milky way...
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:07 pm | |
| I have to agree with scio, here. See, thiis is one of the most complicated transitions in the game because it's all visible, rather than under the hood like sentience. Maybe having hints that can be turned on or off? Other games have it, it shouldn't be too hard. | |
| | | Tenebrarum Society Team Lead
Posts : 1179 Reputation : 32 Join date : 2010-10-01 Age : 31 Location : ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:30 pm | |
| - Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
- I have to agree with scio, here. See, thiis is one of the most complicated transitions in the game because it's all visible, rather than under the hood like sentience.
Maybe having hints that can be turned on or off? Other games have it, it shouldn't be too hard. Already agreed to have toggleable hints. | |
| | | Pezzalis Regular
Posts : 260 Reputation : 6 Join date : 2010-08-07
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:05 pm | |
| So one thing we need to figure out is how we will transition from a colony to a single entity.
Any ideas...? | |
| | | The Uteen Sandbox Team Lead
Posts : 1476 Reputation : 70 Join date : 2010-07-06 Age : 28 Location : England, Virgo Supercluster
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:40 pm | |
| - Pezzalis wrote:
- So one thing we need to figure out is how we will transition from a colony to a single entity.
Any ideas...? When you zoom in, there should be a limit (to stop you seeing lack of detail, and to stop you going stupidly over-zoomed). As your colony gets bigger, you can zoom in less, so as the cells become less and less visible, the gameplay becomes more like the multicellular one, with the arrow keys allowing feeble wriggling of the colony (an attempt at swimming, basically the colony begins to act as a whole), and the cells become less customisable (each of those things you absorb in single-cell can no longer be absorbed, you can't change cell positions, etc.). I think a slow, steady change like this should work okay. Introducing the new controls one at a time and replacing old single/colony cell controls should make this, probably the biggest transition in the game, fairly smooth. | |
| | | Poisson Regular
Posts : 322 Reputation : 11 Join date : 2010-07-07 Age : 29 Location : AK (GMT -9)
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:07 pm | |
| @ Uteen: That sounds like a really good idea! | |
| | | Commander Keen Industrial Team Lead
Posts : 1123 Reputation : 36 Join date : 2010-07-23 Location : Czech Republic (not that anyone would know where it is...)
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:11 pm | |
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| | | Tenebrarum Society Team Lead
Posts : 1179 Reputation : 32 Join date : 2010-10-01 Age : 31 Location : ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:43 pm | |
| Uteen, that's a good idea, but I cannot begin to imagine implementing it. We're still talking about going from one mutually exclusive editor to another. For example: The wriggling you mentioned requires muscles, which are not present pre-multicellular. | |
| | | ~sciocont Overall Team Lead
Posts : 3406 Reputation : 138 Join date : 2010-07-06
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:23 pm | |
| I think the Org editor should be opened once you have eviolved differentiated cells. Once your creature has more than one type of cell, you get the OE. This would mean life will probably start as a jellyfish like organism, just a step above lower cnidarians like the hydra. | |
| | | Pezzalis Regular
Posts : 260 Reputation : 6 Join date : 2010-08-07
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:54 am | |
| Okies people, I have more or less overhauled my idea on how Cell specialization in colonies will work, and have added this to the OP. It is not 100%, not quite 60% and probably not 30% compliant with our current niches concept, so this section needs quite a bit of rigorous thought on how it could be implemented. - Spoiler:
Cell Specialization *UPDATED*
This section is still a bit iffy but recently several sparks of ideas, sketches, simplification of real life systems and processes has led me to the following. Whether this section will be handled manually or by auto evo (TBD), this is what we have so far. Specialized cells in early Multicellular gameplay will be different to those of single celled gameplay. As of now, here is a big old list of the types of cells that can form (Or be placed) in your colony.
Locomotive cells: Cells that have certain organelles that specialize in movement.
Pseudopodia: Cells that can change their shape to allow movement IE. Amoeba, White blood cells.
Types/Functions of Pseudopodia:
Creepers: Allow slug like movement at a low energy cost for surrounding/attached cells. + Slow Localized movement - Small ATP
Engulfers: In large colonies, can break off from the colony and 'engulf' any parasitic or harmful cell in the organism by Phagocytosis (Basically a fundamental white blood cell). +Immune response, or increases health/disease resistance. - Small ATP
Ciliates: Round cells covered in hundereds of small, fine thread-like cilia.
Types/Functions of Ciliates:
Beaters - Cilia beats to allow motion to the cell and cells within a radius attached to it., but it is not as effective as Wrigglers. + Medium Localized movement - Medium ATP
Pushers - In large colonies, when lining a small tube-section of a colony, they can beat to push food along the tube. + Digestive efficiency + Function - Medium ATP
Flagellates: Egg-shaped cells with a long, mobile whip like thread called a Flagella.
Types/Functions of Flagellates:
Wrigglers - The flagella is beat back and forth to allow motion to the cell and cells within a radius attached to it. + Fast localized movement - Large ATP
Anglers - In large colonies, the flagella is covered in an adhesive substance and can stick to food particles or prey and pull it towards the cell. + Energy from food + Function - Large ATP
Physiological Cells: Cells which deal with digestion, ATP production, waste, and metabolic functions.
Secretory Cells: Longs vase shaped cells with an organelle at one end which secretes special fluids in the pointed direction. (Essentially gland cells).
Types/Functions of Secretory Cells:
Digesters: Secrete fluids/enzymes which break down food particles. + Function + Digestive efficiency
Odourants: Secrete a fluid which repels larger organisms (Or organisms of a certain type) + Function - Medium ATP
Chummers: Secrete a fluid which attracts smaller organisms (Or certain types of organisms) +Function - Medium ATP
Absorbers: Grooved box-shaped cells (More surface area for diffusion) which absorb certain materials.
Types/Functions of Absorbers:
Eaters: Absorb all food material in a radius and convert it to ATP + Large ATP
Breathers: ONLY in large colonies, absorb oxygen from outside of colony and transport to the interior cells for respiration. (At this scale it can be done under the hood, could be displayed as vein like structures forming) + Function + ATP gained from food
Offensive and Defensive Cells Any cells concerned with the defense or offense of the colony. This section contains many different types of cells.
Shield Cells: Tube shaped cells which are used defensively.
Types/Functions of Shield Cells:
Platers: Have a thick membrane which is very hard to break, can form shells when placed around other cells. + Colony Health/Defense + Function
Stinging Cells Contain a sub organelle called a cnida which can inject poison into any cell that touches it.
Types/Functions of Stinging cells:
Stingers: Inflict damage to all organelles in the victim cell. + Function - Medium ATP
Dissolvers: Break down the inside of the victim cell for digestion + Function - Medium ATP
Paralyzers: Immobilise the victim cell. + Function - Medium ATP
Sensory Cells These are cells which account for senses such as heat, light, chemicals etc
Eye cells: Oval cells, sensitive to light, give the player a light sensor and a wider FOV, and a warning if the light becomes to dim (for photosynthetics) or too intense. + Light Sensor
Thermo cells: Disc shaped cells, sensitive to heat, give the player a heat sensor and a warning system if the temperature is too cold or too hot. + Heat sensor
pH Cells: Bullet shaped cells, sensitive to extreme pH levels, be they low or high. Adds a warning system. +Chemical sensor
Feelers: Long, thin cells, a very simple version of a nerve cell, gives the colony a sensitivity to large vibrations in the water. Can help increase awareness of larger organisms. + Presence awareness bar
Reproductive Cells The aforementioned 'Sharing Cell' has undergone some modifications.
Hormone Cell When the colony is old enough, the hormone cells will activate, releasing hormones into the surrounding area. These hormones will attract another of your species with which you can mate sexually. At this stage (if your colony is small enough) you can also asexually reproduce, by 'budding' you mating cells, forming colonies identical to your current one. Why you'd do this, I don't know. I guess if you can't find a mate or if you are close to death.
Mating Cells These mating cells, when active will be able to exchange DNA with other mating cells as long as they are the same species. If your colony has more than one mating cell they can asexually reproduce. If you have released hormones to attract a mate you can sexually reproduce with them by connecting the mating cells and activating them. When the two cells are together they will fuse (Giving the full chromosome number) and form what is essentially a zygote.
Depending on whats happening with Auto-Evo or the OE,
Auto-Evo: This zygote will divide, and as it does so it will offer certain traits such as "Increase Plater Thickness" Or "Increase Plater Count", giving you various options to add or decrease certain traits/cells to your liking.
OE: Your colony will be opened up in the colony editor. Here you can spend "Diversity Points - (A number determined by how many times your whole colony died, how many cells in your colony died, and basically the population size of your species and thus the likeliness of mutations) on things such as new cells, new traits, and improvements of existing cells.
Ok. SO its not really 100%. There is HEAPS to add, and heaps to work out and simplify for effective gameplay.
You will notice that I have seriously stripped down the types of cells and left out many key functional cells. This is because a lot of them can be done behind the scenes and/or later in the game when you are not viewing them at a cellular level (Things such as nervous systems or muscle cells). I have also given them names that the common gamer can associate with a function as opposed to the full on confusing scientific names. I have sorted them under a not-so-good type setting as opposed to function (IE Flagellates as opposed to Movement cells).
I also think that Multicellular/Colony stage should be a different 'section' to single cellular and Organism mode. The main difference between Colony and Organism mode is that as Bashi has stated, Organism mode technically begins when you are a single 3 dimensional entity. Colony also doesn't have much in the way to do with niches or many of the other aspects relating to the current Organism concepts. But thaaaaaats just my opinion I hope you can make sense of my concept ~Pezz | |
| | | Pezzalis Regular
Posts : 260 Reputation : 6 Join date : 2010-08-07
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:06 am | |
| I've also been thinking about the current niche concepts. Then something hit me that I can't believe I didn't really see before. Plankton. Plankton on earth are defined by their niche rather than their classification, so I think that this early multicellular stage could be done quite easily with different variations of a pelagic, planktonic ecosystem. What if at the start of each game, you start in a randomly selected (or a chosen) pelagic biome? You start there as a prokaryote and can leave when you enter full-3D organism mode. (Could be tropical, freshwater, polar, etc and different global locations and water types will determine different niches). Heres an example: - Spoiler:
Tropical Pelagic
- Where: The Pelagic zone, in tropical waters (Open water, close to surface, far from shore)
- Elevation: 0-200m below sea level.
- Resoruces: Salt water
- Climate: Tropical
- Topography: None, too small to survive deep water pressures, just open water.
- Biodiversity: Large
- Niches for autotrophs:
Phytoplankton Autotrophic, prokaryotic organisms that live near the water surface where there is sufficient light to support photosynthesis. (Like diatoms, cyanobacteria etc). (Anything that has assimilated lots of Light Eaters, and is single celled) Scale: Single celled - Tiny/Miniscule (Invisible/green goop to anything larger than a small organism)
- Trophic levels for heterotrophs:
Protozoic Zooplankton - protozoans that feed on phytoplankton and other protozoic zoolplankton. Scale: Single celled - Tiny/Miniscule (Invisible to anything larger than a small organism)
Metazoic Zooplankton - Multicellular planktic organisms that feed on Protozoic Zooplankton and Phytoplankton. Scale: Tiny (1-20cm)
Small Feeders - Feed on Metazoic Zooplankton Scale: Small (20-100cm)
Large Feeders - Carnivores which feed on Small feeders, some filter feeders, and each-other. Scale: Midsize-Large
Filter Feeders - Feed on all planktic life-forms. Scale: Midsize-Gargantuan (Like manta-rays, Basking sharks and Whales).
- Others: This is a primary Biome, and can be selected as the first biome that a single celled organism will begin in. When you enter full-3D organism stage, you will not of course be able to see the single celled organisms. Phytoplankton density will appear as a green goop, small metazoic zooplankton will appear as small moving white specs (Like krill).
We will probably need to make quite a few for varied early gameplay. Thoughts? | |
| | | Tenebrarum Society Team Lead
Posts : 1179 Reputation : 32 Join date : 2010-10-01 Age : 31 Location : ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:32 pm | |
| Question: Our auto-evo requires template organisms, right? Thoughts? | |
| | | Pezzalis Regular
Posts : 260 Reputation : 6 Join date : 2010-08-07
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:01 pm | |
| - Tenebrarum wrote:
- Question: Our auto-evo requires template organisms, right? Thoughts?
There will probably be a set number of cells (At this point there probably won't be individual cells but your creature will be divided into cell clusters with functions as far as game mechanics go) that when you pass it you will go from 2d -3d. SO if your something like a daphnia, you will go from seeing it like this: To this: Im may not seem like such a big change, but we have been discussing these template organisms... How about a couple generations before you reach the 2D-3D cell cap, the game could *somehow* determine the main shape, movement, energy production and structural material (Ie lots of platers around the exterior of the colony or no platers but lots of stingers), of the colony, and relate it to one of our template orgs. So we would probably have to make a whole batch of template orgs for all the possible combinations, which with crowd-sourcing would probably not be too hard (200-500..?) So for something like the above Daphnia: Shape: Round - Egg if we are being extraspecific Movement: Contractile Muscle Cells (Muscle cells will form from large areas of other movement cells - not altogether scientific but function-wise it will work and it will be done 'behind the scenes' when individual cells are phased out). Energy production: Respiration Materials: (Probably represented as a ratio to determine what goes where or how it is distributed about the shape of the body) Includes Platers, Eaters, Feelers, Eye Cells etc. Now from all these factors, perhaps the game could pick the closest match out of our 3D template organisms and during the next few generations phase in features from them? Then when you go full 3D you more or less assume their shape? Thoughts? (BTW the last couple posts by me are rather important, please read them ) | |
| | | Tenebrarum Society Team Lead
Posts : 1179 Reputation : 32 Join date : 2010-10-01 Age : 31 Location : ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:13 pm | |
| Best idea yet Pezz!
And it could easily relate organisms based on the similarities of their share codes. | |
| | | Pezzalis Regular
Posts : 260 Reputation : 6 Join date : 2010-08-07
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:15 pm | |
| - Tenebrarum wrote:
- Best idea yet Pezz!
And it could easily relate organisms based on the similarities of their share codes. Yes that too So are we having Biomes for microbial and Colony stage? I mean it would be cool if a gargantuan filter feeder swam right by your colony. Or even swallowed you XD | |
| | | kaosrain Newcomer
Posts : 58 Reputation : 3 Join date : 2010-11-21 Age : 25 Location : Dead frontier and civilization revolution
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:32 pm | |
| Good ,but what about muscle valves? how will we create them? | |
| | | Pezzalis Regular
Posts : 260 Reputation : 6 Join date : 2010-08-07
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:39 pm | |
| - kaosrain wrote:
- Good ,but what about muscle valves? how will we create them?
We can essentially cheat with most muscle related cells. If not I guess for some colonies there will be certain cells that can de-stick and re-stick to allow food substances through, and in order to open the will need a mover nearby so I guess later in gameplay these moves will become muscle cells I guess valves could form to allow blood/substances/anything else through? | |
| | | kaosrain Newcomer
Posts : 58 Reputation : 3 Join date : 2010-11-21 Age : 25 Location : Dead frontier and civilization revolution
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:21 pm | |
| And for excretory systems systems the same? | |
| | | Pezzalis Regular
Posts : 260 Reputation : 6 Join date : 2010-08-07
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:58 pm | |
| - kaosrain wrote:
- And for excretory systems systems the same?
Yeah I guess... And perhaps sphincters can form at this level too... or not. | |
| | | ~sciocont Overall Team Lead
Posts : 3406 Reputation : 138 Join date : 2010-07-06
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:05 pm | |
| I'm really loving your ideas here, Pezz! | |
| | | Pezzalis Regular
Posts : 260 Reputation : 6 Join date : 2010-08-07
| Subject: Re: From a Colony of Cells to an Organism Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:22 am | |
| - ~sciocont wrote:
- I'm really loving your ideas here, Pezz!
Thx scio! Let me re-iterate a few things for a second. I more or less clicked onto this while re-reading my above post. - Pezzalis wrote:
- (At this point there probably won't be individual cells but your creature will be divided into cell clusters with functions as far as game mechanics go)
What's an easier name for these clusters? Parts. I think your right scio about the basic OE coming into play as soon as a colonies cells start to specialize as thats when certain cells have different functions and thus arrangement is essential. It makes a lot of sense. | |
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