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| Org Mode After Sentience | |
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+4Hallowed_Are_The_Ori Mysterious_Calligrapher bill2505 Tenebrarum 8 posters | |
Author | Message |
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Tenebrarum Society Team Lead
Posts : 1179 Reputation : 32 Join date : 2010-10-01 Age : 31 Location : ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
| Subject: Org Mode After Sentience Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:33 pm | |
| Once the player is sapient/sentient, we all have pretty much agreed that the major movement of the game will occur in Strat Mode rather than Org Mode. (For Obvious reasons)
However, I feel that if we do not make Org Mode just as interesting, then we will be missing a huge opportunity, as well as making a massive fracture in the smooth transitions we've talked about.
I don't have too many ideas, but as they become more relevant I will post them. Please use this thread to brainstorm how Org Mode should function after Sentience. | |
| | | bill2505 Learner
Posts : 112 Reputation : 0 Join date : 2011-01-09 Location : Greece
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:44 pm | |
| - Tenebrarum wrote:
- Once the player is sapient/sentient, we all have pretty much agreed that the major movement of the game will occur in Strat Mode rather than Org Mode. (For Obvious reasons)
However, I feel that if we do not make Org Mode just as interesting, then we will be missing a huge opportunity, as well as making a massive fracture in the smooth transitions we've talked about.
I don't have too many ideas, but as they become more relevant I will post them. Please use this thread to brainstorm how Org Mode should function after Sentience. you are right here. to be honest the reason i follow this game for the strat mod(building cities....) but i thing that you are right.i dont have specific ideas but something that i thing that will org mod better graphics will be a big plus to the org mode(not only the org mode but whatever) easy camera controls will be also be a plus (now i ma playing darksiders a pc game even if its good the camera is very bad) better combat: combat in spore was boring ,repetitive . creature editor was boring .also even if you had chose herbivore creature you could add him organs that only a carnivore animal has not repetitive gameplay. in spore the only thing you were doing is kill and reproduse (are those enought? for me no specially how they were implemented in spore | |
| | | Mysterious_Calligrapher Biome Team Lead
Posts : 1034 Reputation : 26 Join date : 2010-11-26 Age : 32 Location : Earth, the solar system, the milky way...
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:04 pm | |
| Hmm... I'm a little leery of assigning your singular organism "quests" a la other games, but I do think that unless we include some quest/mission type things, people will no longer be content to tool around as a single critter in org mode. However... We already talked about a sandbox application to create missions/situations - I think there should be both open ended and goal-oriented thiings to do there. | |
| | | Hallowed_Are_The_Ori Newcomer
Posts : 29 Reputation : 0 Join date : 2011-01-16 Location : Whatsitcalled... the Ori planet... yeah... that one...
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:57 pm | |
| We should have random events for it
Like you could get abducted by a UFO, there could be the outbreak of a disease in which you can either work with thers of your species to find a cure or be quarantined or something. There might be an earthquake and you have to help rebuild, or when rebuilding your enemies might realise the weakness of the city and attack, and you can help defend the city. As well as being able to fight on the front lines [you probly have to have a military job for that in civ+] in battles and defence of your cities. You could be sent to foreign lands as a diplomat or explorer, you could spy on and sabotauge you enemies. Along with this, in peaceful times yu could just stroll through your city and speak with the civilians.
I'm also thinking we could implement a series of mini-storylines for org mode. This would eliminate the obviousness of straight out missions and/or quests, and leaves it open for the player to do what they want, they could ignore it or go through with it. What I mean, fr those of you who dont understand, is, say, the player is walking along a road, and they are approached by a stranger, who claims to be a part of the infamous 'Rebellion'. He asks if you would like to help the rebellion. If the player wants to overturn the government, he can help, if he wants to keep the current government, he can run away and report the stranger to the police/similar authorities.
You could also 'train' your current job, like practise shooting if you're in the army, practise peace-talking if you're a diplomat, practise killing if you're an assassin, practise outdoors survival if you're an explorer. The more you practise or 'train' these skills, the more weapons/abilities/items you unlock, say you're a diplomat, you could unlock new styles of persuasion, or skills such as 'Gracious Greeting' [reference from Spore], if you're an army dude you could unlock new weapons, or gain skill with a weapon you already have, eg. two pistols instead of just one, or being able to reload quicker or something like that. If you're an assassin you could unlock new weapons, or work on existing skills, or possibly learn new ones. You get the idea.
And most of that is focusing on the civ stage, in tribal stage we could have different jobs like gathering ect. , as well as tribal combat, or you could opt to be a shaman's appretice and learn [spells?], or be a 'true warrior' and learn advanced combat techniques [well, advanced for a tribal civilisation at least]. We could implement a system where acts of bravery will gain you infuence among the rest of the tribe, and with enough influence you could go off and create your own tribe, or make your own inter-tribal war, or becme the chief of your tribe. Also, your offspring would/could start ff with a small fraction of the influence you've earned.
In space you could choose to either stay with your 'empire', go rouge and explore on you own. Staying with your 'empire' will limit your actions by it's laws, however you'll have steady supply of necessities, and the rouges will need to get these 'necessities' manually, through trade or piracy. So basically it's harder for rouges to interatct with others, as others dont particularly trust rouges, however rouges are completely free and can d whatever they want [though still with consiquences], where as the ones who stay with their 'empire' will have less freedom, but will be protected by the 'empire' itself, and will find it easier to negtiate with others.
Sorry it's so long, I have alot of ideas. Feel free to sift through it and take out what you want.
Last edited by Hallowed_Are_The_Ori on Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:11 pm; edited 1 time in total | |
| | | Mysterious_Calligrapher Biome Team Lead
Posts : 1034 Reputation : 26 Join date : 2010-11-26 Age : 32 Location : Earth, the solar system, the milky way...
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:05 pm | |
| While a lot of those sound interesting, I'm just going to throw out some thoughts here We need a balance of goal-oriented and open-ended playing. For example: The Sims - completely open-ended playing. Fun... but it gets boring after a while, except for the player-created challenges. However, simply having consecutive "missions" can get boring too. We need to have missions, but we can't make them so automatically urgent that it prevents the player from just tooling around in org mode.
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| | | Tenebrarum Society Team Lead
Posts : 1179 Reputation : 32 Join date : 2010-10-01 Age : 31 Location : ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:47 pm | |
| - Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
- While a lot of those sound interesting, I'm just going to throw out some thoughts here
We need a balance of goal-oriented and open-ended playing. For example: The Sims - completely open-ended playing. Fun... but it gets boring after a while, except for the player-created challenges. However, simply having consecutive "missions" can get boring too. We need to have missions, but we can't make them so automatically urgent that it prevents the player from just tooling around in org mode.
Clearly. It might be best to have characters generated. They'll have needs and thus, jobs/quests appear. Give them more personality and opinion and the quest become increasingly in depth and complex. This is one of the things that we will hopefully slowly patch on piece by piece to build it up. And if that doesn't work, we can just script in some quests and leave the door open for modding. Now, let's talk about something else that hasn't been talked about nearly as much: Player Possessions? Inventory? Housing? Marriage and Family? Conversations? | |
| | | Mysterious_Calligrapher Biome Team Lead
Posts : 1034 Reputation : 26 Join date : 2010-11-26 Age : 32 Location : Earth, the solar system, the milky way...
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:29 pm | |
| Personally, I have a Psychology issue with alien conversations, but for the sake of playability (and since no one wants to hear my enlightened theory anyway) I'd say they're necessary. Family units might be a nice plus - though we'd have some trouble defining a "family," depending on the type of organism. Organism skills/abilities/equiptment would probably be necessary for some "missions." | |
| | | Hallowed_Are_The_Ori Newcomer
Posts : 29 Reputation : 0 Join date : 2011-01-16 Location : Whatsitcalled... the Ori planet... yeah... that one...
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:58 am | |
| I want ot hear it
And if noone else wants it here PM me | |
| | | Poisson Regular
Posts : 322 Reputation : 11 Join date : 2010-07-07 Age : 29 Location : AK (GMT -9)
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:02 am | |
| I'd say post it. The worst that can happen is getting told "No, that's a bad idea because..." | |
| | | Mysterious_Calligrapher Biome Team Lead
Posts : 1034 Reputation : 26 Join date : 2010-11-26 Age : 32 Location : Earth, the solar system, the milky way...
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:23 pm | |
| Okay, so the theory of why aliens wouldn't converse like we do: here for reference, and yes, it's too complicated. Deal, as I doubt it's being adapted as a functional piece of game. - Spoiler:
1) Different languages form connections in different areas of the brain. Scientifically observed. (Though the earier you learn multiple languages, the more those two areas will bleed together...) Therefore, as the alien brain is undoubtedly different from ours, their approach to language will be somewhat different. Actually, human languages are approached differently - we have sign language, which uses the hands, as well as romance (latin derived) languages. The Fon language, which I've just been reading about for my humanities class, is tonal. This means that if you say "Lala" and your voice goes up, it's a different word from "LaLA," where your voice could go down on the second or just stay exactly the same. Basically, there's a lot of stuff potential in spoken languages that we can't necessarily translate into English, spanish, Thai, Check... you get the picture.
Rebuttal no. 1: Any species developing a written language will find ways to deal with that - accent marks, punctuation, and the like. Re-rebuttal: that takes much longer than you'd think. The Romans didn't even have punctuation - that, plus syntax, was added slowly to latin to make it palatable to the locals. This resulted in Italian, Spanish, French, Portugese, and english, as well as, periphereally, Catalan. (Any one who knows that there were originally far too many spanish dialects, that have mostly been superseeded by Castillian spanish, you get webcookies.)
2) Semantics. They are not necessarily a part of the sentence. For example, classical latin classes nouns into various declensions, which all have different endings, which are supposed to tell you their relation to each other. Semantics is really, really important in English. For example, the sentences "Annabel looked at the dog," and "The dog looked at Annabel," mean different things in English, due only to the order in which words are placed. A Latin-speaking Roman wouldn't be paying any attention to the word order: his sentence could be, "Annabella cainem verat," or "Cainem verat Annabella" or "Annabella verat cainem" or "Cainem Annabella verat," and it would make no difference to him. In addition, he wouldn't bother punctuating, nor would your Ancient Egyptian, Greek or Mayan. Alien Semantics, as a result of their having a potentially dissimilar linguistic logic, would necessarily be unusual from any terran standpoint.
Rebuttal no. 2: Latin is a dead language. It was too difficult to learn. Similar languages will die out, right? Re-rebuttal: Latin was the language of science, religion, the universe and everything from before year 0 to well into the 17th and 18th centuries. English has only been a common world language since the early 1700's, during the brittish empire.
3)Writing, records, and the rest. Though it's been discussed in other threads, writing systems are hugely complicated. The Arabic characters that most of us are using here are on the relatively simple end: on the other end, we have Chinese and Japanese characters, Egyptian Heiroglyphs (which were so complicated that they needed three seperate sets) the Mayan Syllabic alphabet, and the Incan predilection of recording all transactions in colored knots. Just to show you how complicated this could get, imagine encoding accent marks, tonal inflections, semantics, or body language in a series of knots.
Rebuttal no 3: Err, what does this have to do with conversations again? re-rebuttal: Everything. Intra-species communications will necesarily work - but ask any "alien" to decode them, and you have a psychological issue. Aliens are "other" and their minds will not necessarily work the same way as ours. At the risk of copying sciocont, I will call this the "Manifesto of dissimilarity."
4)Speech organs. (Or the lack thereof.)We have vocal cords - it was to our ancestors' advantage to be able to make noise long before speech was ever invented, as evidenced by vocal cords in terrestrial animals. However, what if you were a fish? Sound transmits differently in different atmospheres or liquids, so there could potentially be organisms where there was no advantage, or even point, to auditory/vocal communications. Sign language is the most obvious alternative, but it's really a replacement. Why burden your valuable opposable thumbs with the task of communicating all the time? Other modes of communication could be: Visual. Color displays, such as those by octopi. Now, we don't understand all the colorations of octopi, but their chromatophores are versatile enough for them to be used as an effective language communicator. They would probably operate in units of color that, combined like the phonemes of language, would sum up to units of meaning. Chemical. We wouldn't see this going on, but pheremones and other chemical communications go on every day. This includes both the animal-centric smell and the chemicals released by plant "communications."
Anything could be used in place of "speech," but it would have to be both long-range and capable of innumerable nuances.
So, to sum up all my problems with "translatable" alien conversations, think of trying to turn any combination of the above into an understandable english sentence. (This is, personally, why I don't think we'll ever have any problems with Seti - there's no way we'd ever be able to distinguish "we come in peace" from "take us to your leader," and that's assuming that alien intelligence even communicates auditorially and uses radio waves to do so.)
All this said, conversations are needed for the sake of playability. And no one but me is going to have their suspension of disbelief smashed over having a three-eyed alien conversing in perfectly recognizable English/French/Fon/Czech, with perfectly recognizable human characters, in a speech bubble. As a side note... No cartoon/spore style speech bubbles, if avoidable, please? | |
| | | Tenebrarum Society Team Lead
Posts : 1179 Reputation : 32 Join date : 2010-10-01 Age : 31 Location : ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:07 pm | |
| - Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
- All this said, conversations are needed for the sake of playability. And no one but me is going to have their suspension of disbelief smashed over having a three-eyed alien conversing in perfectly recognizable English/French/Fon/Czech, with perfectly recognizable human characters, in a speech bubble.
As a side note... No cartoon/spore style speech bubbles, if avoidable, please? You make a good point. However, you, like everyone else I know, overthought this. The point of Language is communication. So long as that is successful everything else is arbitrary. I'm not sure how to avoid speech bubbles without just having then speak coherent English/whatever. | |
| | | Mysterious_Calligrapher Biome Team Lead
Posts : 1034 Reputation : 26 Join date : 2010-11-26 Age : 32 Location : Earth, the solar system, the milky way...
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:53 pm | |
| And I'm not certain how well having speech come up in the bottom bar, a la multiplayer online games, would work on this one - that's the only alternative I've thought of. | |
| | | Tenebrarum Society Team Lead
Posts : 1179 Reputation : 32 Join date : 2010-10-01 Age : 31 Location : ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:08 am | |
| - Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
- And I'm not certain how well having speech come up in the bottom bar, a la multiplayer online games, would work on this one - that's the only alternative I've thought of.
Right. Well. Let's put that on the back burner, shall we? So: Inventory. How will it work? | |
| | | Commander Keen Industrial Team Lead
Posts : 1123 Reputation : 36 Join date : 2010-07-23 Location : Czech Republic (not that anyone would know where it is...)
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:58 am | |
| @Miss Caligrapher: +10 internets for mentioning Czech. -1 internet for misspelling it the first time (Check language? :D). Still, you end with +9 internets, congratulations!
@Rex: So, inventory. Certainly needs weight and space to be the limiting factors.
Weight is pretty easy to simulate, just add a value to every item carried and apply this weight to the organism/TO (so you can't run through the terrain while carrying twenty kilos of stone).
Space, however, is an absolutely different issue. There are a few ways to deal with it, one of the most common is slots (RPG/Minecraft style). Graspers and clothes should add additional slots, bigger items take more slots. Not the perfect solution, but a working one.
Last edited by Commander Keen on Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:44 am; edited 1 time in total | |
| | | The Uteen Sandbox Team Lead
Posts : 1476 Reputation : 70 Join date : 2010-07-06 Age : 28 Location : England, Virgo Supercluster
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:19 am | |
| - Tenebrarum wrote:
- Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
- And I'm not certain how well having speech come up in the bottom bar, a la multiplayer online games, would work on this one - that's the only alternative I've thought of.
Right. Well. Let's put that on the back burner, shall we?
So: Inventory. How will it work? Hopefully, we wont use an inventory with slots... They are good for gameplay, but hugely unrealistic. In RuneScape, you can carry around a dwarf multi-cannon, which is bigger than you, without any kind of bag, and you still have room for 24 more items. We should make the organisms carry objects, and the invention of a 'bag' research should allow bags to be used, raising the amount a creature can carry. We should take into account the size and weight of objects, too. Basically, no anti-grav pockets that are bigger on the inside... EDIT: Keen beat me to it while I was posting... | |
| | | Commander Keen Industrial Team Lead
Posts : 1123 Reputation : 36 Join date : 2010-07-23 Location : Czech Republic (not that anyone would know where it is...)
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:46 am | |
| Well, slot inventory isn't that bad for realism if done properly (ie. not like Runescape or Minecraft). | |
| | | ~sciocont Overall Team Lead
Posts : 3406 Reputation : 138 Join date : 2010-07-06
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:13 pm | |
| I don't really like inventory. I'd rather you just have whatever techs you can carry. However, a bag, something to carry techs in, could be used, and we could have inventory for that.
Right now though, i don't think we should worry too much about this. The frirst priority is still non-sentient Org mode. | |
| | | Mysterious_Calligrapher Biome Team Lead
Posts : 1034 Reputation : 26 Join date : 2010-11-26 Age : 32 Location : Earth, the solar system, the milky way...
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:25 pm | |
| *facepalm* Calli should not post late at night. Sorry, Keen. Next time I'll Czech my spelling. Agreed fully with uteen. There is no way anyone but an ant should be carrying several times their body weight.
Hey, at least we know what kinds of things we'll need to add on to org mode when sentience is reached. (I take it we'll be able to use our hands/flagella/beak/tentacles to carry basic kinds of useful items pre-sentience, right? If so, we need to figure out weight/size assignments for that before we even worry about adding backpacks.)
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| | | Commander Keen Industrial Team Lead
Posts : 1123 Reputation : 36 Join date : 2010-07-23 Location : Czech Republic (not that anyone would know where it is...)
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:14 pm | |
| Well, inventory is absolutely needed when you get clothing with pockets, bags and similar stuff. | |
| | | Mysterious_Calligrapher Biome Team Lead
Posts : 1034 Reputation : 26 Join date : 2010-11-26 Age : 32 Location : Earth, the solar system, the milky way...
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:32 pm | |
| Agreed. Sentience will not necessarily entail clothes (or large amounts of them, anyway,) but making things easier to carry is a must. | |
| | | Poisson Regular
Posts : 322 Reputation : 11 Join date : 2010-07-07 Age : 29 Location : AK (GMT -9)
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:36 pm | |
| How about being able to make bags and clothing with pockets allows organisms to have an inventory? | |
| | | Commander Keen Industrial Team Lead
Posts : 1123 Reputation : 36 Join date : 2010-07-23 Location : Czech Republic (not that anyone would know where it is...)
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:33 am | |
| Exactly what I had on mind. | |
| | | The Uteen Sandbox Team Lead
Posts : 1476 Reputation : 70 Join date : 2010-07-06 Age : 28 Location : England, Virgo Supercluster
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:49 am | |
| How would we show the inventory in the interface?
If it has an undetermined number of slots, it'll be hard making it look good. (As in, not look like a game of Tetris) Although, it might turn out okay if we use the shatter style. But then again, it could also go terribly wrong... Still, that doesn't solve where it would go.
Hey, I've had an idea for the inventory. The items could be shown on the creature, in the locations they are, but sort of highlighted and shown through clothing/bag. That's not been done before, and would work pretty well as long as you aren't Santa Claus with a giant bag of presents... But you wouldn't be able to find anything in that bag anyway. | |
| | | ~sciocont Overall Team Lead
Posts : 3406 Reputation : 138 Join date : 2010-07-06
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:27 am | |
| - The Uteen wrote:
- How would we show the inventory in the interface?
If it has an undetermined number of slots, it'll be hard making it look good. (As in, not look like a game of Tetris) Although, it might turn out okay if we use the shatter style. But then again, it could also go terribly wrong... Still, that doesn't solve where it would go.
Hey, I've had an idea for the inventory. The items could be shown on the creature, in the locations they are, but sort of highlighted and shown through clothing/bag. That's not been done before, and would work pretty well as long as you aren't Santa Claus with a giant bag of presents... But you wouldn't be able to find anything in that bag anyway. I like that idea. Inventory takes you into third person, and you select what you want. It's original, and has a nice flow to it. | |
| | | Tenebrarum Society Team Lead
Posts : 1179 Reputation : 32 Join date : 2010-10-01 Age : 31 Location : ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
| Subject: Re: Org Mode After Sentience Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:45 pm | |
| - ~sciocont wrote:
- The Uteen wrote:
- How would we show the inventory in the interface?
If it has an undetermined number of slots, it'll be hard making it look good. (As in, not look like a game of Tetris) Although, it might turn out okay if we use the shatter style. But then again, it could also go terribly wrong... Still, that doesn't solve where it would go.
Hey, I've had an idea for the inventory. The items could be shown on the creature, in the locations they are, but sort of highlighted and shown through clothing/bag. That's not been done before, and would work pretty well as long as you aren't Santa Claus with a giant bag of presents... But you wouldn't be able to find anything in that bag anyway. I like that idea. Inventory takes you into third person, and you select what you want. It's original, and has a nice flow to it. QFT | |
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