NPC Auto-Evo Thread

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:48 am

More infuriating than ridiculous, but still.

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:35 am

Sure, why not.

As we speak I'm writing a function that basically takes an organism, and places it in the appropriate niche.

Code:: Niche * Biome::checkOrganism(Organism * _organism)
{
for(int i = 0;i < m_nicheNum;i ++) //THIS MEANS GO THROUGH ALL THE NICHES
{
   Niche * niche = m_nicheList[i]; //IGNORE THIS

   //NOW WHAT?
}
}

Now what? We need some sort of unfitness score that tells us how unfit our current organism is for the current niche. We would then place the organism in the niche with the smallest unfit score. This is back to bashinerox's question: fitness = ?

Basically, what exactly ARE the properties the niches describe, and HOW will we compare them to an organism?

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:11 pm

The problem with more than one mutation at once means that situations get very complex very fast. Adding in two mutations per generation could result in some extreme conflicts. What if the frog and the snake evolve at the same time? NOW, the chance for an arms race becomes much higher.

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:14 pm

What is your definition of an arms race?

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:43 pm

roadkillguy wrote:: What is your definition of an arms race?

A long chain of evolution by only two or three species who all react to one another's mutations, shutting out progress for others.

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:21 pm

Solution to arms race: Arbitrarily stop it.

Guys, we are making the code here. We have control over this stuff. Just set it up so that if two or three organisms are getting all the mutations, just decrease the likelyhood of them getting the mutations next time round, to zero if nessicary.

Admitidly, this would presumably hurt their population, but they can always move.

And besides, we're just saying "mutations," not "adaptations." There's no garuntee that any mutation will be beneficial. Some may even be detrimental.

That brings up another problem: we still haven't descided how we're going to descide what works and what doesn't in terms of mutations outside of either lamarkian "pre-program EVERYTHING" or Darwinian "simulate EVERYTHING."

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:03 pm

So does this happen during a single generation? If do nothing was one of the random solutions, it would stop itself. It's just a matter of ending a recursive loop.

*ahem* fitness = ?

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:13 pm

roadkillguy wrote:: *ahem* fitness = ?

QF Belgiuming T

We need to get on this guys. It's the only way to actually determine evolution.

The way I see it, we need to run simulations. This is how all evolution sims work. There's no way around it. Now, we can do this in two ways I think. Either collect survival rates while the player is running around in-game, or run the numbers in the background at some point, without rendering the graphics/sounds.

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:29 pm

Apparently we've been building a bunch of preset biomes and their niches, and we can get organism data, so it's just a matter of comparison.

I just need to know what data we're comparing. I.E. Abilities such as walking, swimming, climbing or flying. (Or whatever else the niches can define)

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:25 pm

roadkillguy wrote:: Apparently we've been building a bunch of preset biomes and their niches, and we can get organism data, so it's just a matter of comparison.

I just need to know what data we're comparing. I.E. Abilities such as walking, swimming, climbing or flying. (Or whatever else the niches can define)

Ok, we can up the mutation count. It make things more complicated, but I guess not by too much, and you've shown there is a good reason to do so.

You're completely right. We need to make a list of different traits that define niches. The way i think we should determine fitness is a simple system- if it works, we keep it.

-As long as an org meets all of the requirements for its niche, it can stay there.

-Specials like extra methods of movement, special abilities (poison, etc.) give it an advantage if its niche is challenged by another org

-if an orgs niche is challenged, it is allowed a reaction mutation chance the same as any other org affected by another orgs mutation.

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:38 pm

So there should be a bonus attribute list, and a required attribute list.

We should make a list of possible attributes, and each niche needs to define a selection of those attributes as bonus or required.

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:09 am

roadkillguy wrote:: So there should be a bonus attribute list, and a required attribute list.

We should make a list of possible attributes, and each niche needs to define a selection of those attributes as bonus or required.

Been through that. Came up with the only way is to have a list of properties of an attribute, rather than required attributes per niche in a biome. Mostly because the first way is shorter.

@ the current moment, we're working on simply gathering enough biomes to be able to cover all ranges of development, temperature/altitude and precipitation that the game can have. Meaning I haven't even started on niches yet. Figure out what we want to program, niche wise, and we'll toss the concept back and forth until something works.

For now, I'm trying to figure out the minimum number of niches required for each sucession stage. (More can and will be attatched.
So far, my min. requirements are
Stage 1
plant species min: 4
transient niches open min: 2
resident niches open herbivore min: 1

I still need to do some maths and toss this around until I figure out if this would work. I'm thinking that the [i]absolute[i] minimum number of plant and animal niches open per biome is going to have to be closer to 10 than seven in the end.

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:08 pm

This is what I have so far:

Code:: int main(int _argc, char ** _argv)
{
Biome * biome = new Biome(10, 10); //MAX 10 NICHES, MAX 10 MAX RESOURCES

Niche * niche;

   niche = new Niche("Land Creature");

   niche->addAttribute(ANIM_ATTRIB_CAN_WALK, true); //WALKING IS REQUIRED

   niche->addAttribute(ANIM_ATTRIB_CAN_SWIM, false); //SWIMMING IS A BONUS

   biome->addNiche(niche);

   niche2 = new Niche("Tree Dweller");

   niche2->addAttribute(ANIM_ATTRIB_CAN_WALK, true); //WALKING IS REQUIRED

   niche2->addAttribute(ANIM_ATTRIB_CAN_CLIMB, true); //CLIMBING IS REQUIRED

   biome->addNiche(niche2);

Organism * organism = new Organism("Walky");

organism->addAttribute(ANIM_ATTRIB_CAN_WALK);       //CAN WALK

biome->checkOrganism(organism);

Organism * organism2 = new Organism("Amphibian");

organism2->addAttribute(ANIM_ATTRIB_CAN_WALK);       //CAN WALK

organism2->addAttribute(ANIM_ATTRIB_CAN_SWIM);       //CAN SWIM

biome->checkOrganism(organism2);

Organism * organism3 = new Organism("Swimmy");

organism3->addAttribute(ANIM_ATTRIB_CAN_SWIM);       //CAN SWIM

biome->checkOrganism(organism3);

delete biome;

delete niche;
delete niche2;

delete organism;
delete organism2;
delete organism3;

exit(0);
}

This is what it outputs:

Code:: Organism Walky (0x8f2c130) was added to niche Land Creature with a score of 0.5
Organism Amphibian (0x8f2c1b8) replaced organism Walky in niche Land Creature with a score of 0
Organism Walky (0x8f2c130) couldn't be added to any niche.
Organism Swimmy (0x8f2c220) couldn't be added to any niche.

Thusly, because the niche Land Creature has a bonus attribute of swimming, Amphibian happened to be a better fit than Walky, who couldn't swim. (A lower score is better.) Walky is then checked again, and unfortunately cannot fit any more niches. Swimmy, not being able to walk nor climb, couldn't be added to any of this biome's niches.

These attributes are very dynamic, I.E. they can be modified at any time, and the Niche Compare function will still compare them perfectly. It doesn't compare food types yet, so that's what I'll work on next.

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:50 pm

What I understood of that, I loved, Roadkill.

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:28 pm

I am liking this a lot. So, we're all clear on how this is going to work now? All we have to do is map out the niches for each biome, including all of their required attributes, then roadkill has the code for placement.

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:41 pm

~sciocont wrote:: I am liking this a lot. So, we're all clear on how this is going to work now? All we have to do is map out the niches for each biome, including all of their required attributes, then roadkill has the code for placement.

Precisely. The code will add, replace, and remove organisms to make the best fit. Be sure to include a list of possible resources into each biome. (Rocks, streams, etc)

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:07 pm

roadkillguy wrote:

~sciocont wrote:: I am liking this a lot. So, we're all clear on how this is going to work now? All we have to do is map out the niches for each biome, including all of their required attributes, then roadkill has the code for placement.

Precisely. The code will add, replace, and remove organisms to make the best fit. Be sure to include a list of possible resources into each biome. (Rocks, streams, etc)

Ok, I'll do a mock-up of a mini biome.

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:27 am

Also, we may need to make a global (universal, in this case) compound list, depending on if we want that. (I believe that's the key to balancing any given biome, if it's done right) That way, plants wont just magically spawn unless the Biome contains the resources in the dirt and water, and a carnivore wont be able to move in without meat. The stage is then set for Mysterious Calligrapher's Biome Levels.

We may be able to get away with it for now, but it may become an issue in the future.

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:45 am

I like the code for the niches, but while is is good for determining niches it looks as though we are going to get a load of organisms with a score of 0, or very close, and they'll just stay there. I know this isn't the code's fault, but how is this avoided? (If it needs to be, it seems to)

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:44 pm

More attributes, and food sources taken into account. Compounds would help too. The more we define a niche, the more the score can vary.

I've also made a discovery. While writing food comparison into the organism score function, I found that Niches needed to be able to depend on eachother. Niches also need to be able to depend on a resource, such as the ground (Plants eat dirt). Niches, inadvertently, are thus resources, specifically organisms, for their eating ability.

Niches = Organisms + required attributes + current organism (Which is kind of obvious, but I didn't intend for a Niche to be a derivative of class organism)

Often when coding lots of classes, logic will begin to sort itself out. (It's amazing, really) Just thought I'd share that.

Also, there seems to be an order to things. A herbivore will not be added until grass is there (he wont pass the niche test), so effectively the computer is telling us that grass comes before herbivores, and the evolution system works out great. I'll post more code when it's working. (Something's up)

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:39 pm

... I think you just read my science brain and translated it into codespeak.

And I put up the first bare-bones biome system - Highly Arid, water resources pretty much negligible. Resources will be added to it later, but right now it's just a series of empty deserts. It's here, if anyone would like a look. Hopefully it's inteligible. (second post down.)

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:46 am

roadkillguy wrote:: More attributes, and food sources taken into account. Compounds would help too. The more we define a niche, the more the score can vary.

I've also made a discovery. While writing food comparison into the organism score function, I found that Niches needed to be able to depend on eachother. Niches also need to be able to depend on a resource, such as the ground (Plants eat dirt). Niches, inadvertently, are thus resources, specifically organisms, for their eating ability.

Niches = Organisms + required attributes + current organism (Which is kind of obvious, but I didn't intend for a Niche to be a derivative of class organism)

Often when coding lots of classes, logic will begin to sort itself out. (It's amazing, really) Just thought I'd share that.

Also, there seems to be an order to things. A herbivore will not be added until grass is there (he wont pass the niche test), so effectively the computer is telling us that grass comes before herbivores, and the evolution system works out great. I'll post more code when it's working. (Something's up)

That's brilliant! Everything is going well, I see.
Yesterday I drew up a biome food web for us. It's a bit complicated even though it only has 17 species. However, It made me realize a few things.

1- We may need more attributes to define a niche so far I can only come up with size diet and movement type. I don't want our niches to become to exact, because that will stifle interesting evolution, but I don't want the definitions to be too simple.

2- The food web is sort of arbitrary... I really just put in random connections between the levels for what feeds on what. I know this is probably the only way to do it, but it still irks me.

3- We need to decide how many species max can be in a biome. The biome I created had 17, and I though of it as a plains type biome by the descriptions of the creatures. Plains would probably be a low stage 2 biome, so a high stage 3 (tropical rain forest) would have a lot more. Maybe 50 species?

I've set up a new thread to deal with this.

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:30 pm

sciocont wrote:: 2- The food web is sort of arbitrary... I really just put in random connections between the levels for what feeds on what. I know this is probably the only way to do it, but it still irks me.

I don't think that matters. Some niche definitions might be a little too vague or too specific, but that's where we can fine tune the game.

Some definitions of niches should also be required (I.E. you have to specify some minimum attributes for each niche)

I would say:
-Name
-Size
-Mass (I proposed that in the other thread so maybe not)
-Breathable Atmosphere (Plants too?)
-At least one other niche/resource to eat. (Maybe Atmosphere should play into this; I'm not sure how)

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:50 pm

roadkillguy wrote:

sciocont wrote:: 2- The food web is sort of arbitrary... I really just put in random connections between the levels for what feeds on what. I know this is probably the only way to do it, but it still irks me.

I don't think that matters. Some niche definitions might be a little too vague or too specific, but that's where we can fine tune the game.

Some definitions of niches should also be required (I.E. you have to specify some minimum attributes for each niche)

I would say:
-Name
-Size
-Mass (I proposed that in the other thread so maybe not)
-Breathable Atmosphere (Plants too?)
-At least one other niche/resource to eat. (Maybe Atmosphere should play into this; I'm not sure how)

What do you mean by minimum attributes? The definition for each niche is already the minimum required attributes.

Decomposers and detrtitvores will not need anything to eat on the food chain, so they wiill play mostly the same role as autotrophs.

Subject: Re: NPC Auto-Evo Thread Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:36 am

As in, whoever writes the niche could choose to specify more or less about the organism, but should have at least certain parameters.

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