Food Web Creation

roadkillguy wrote:

I honestly think this can be simplified by using my Resource Conversion idea. Biomes could be created and have niches added to them each preparation phase.

I don't see what's wrong with:

Sugar -> Protein (Herbivore eats plants)
Protein -> Protein 2 (Predator eats herbivore)

Each animal would evolve different abilities, and the second it evolved the ability to eat something, it would create the niche. My code for the niches already has this ability.

Ok, so you're saying each organism is made up of these resources, and certain organisms can eat certain resources? That sounds like a plan.

I've been attempting to propose this for a while..

But anyway, yes. Everything in a biome is a resource. A resource is made up of multiple compounds. Depending on the compounds in a resource, a given organism may or may not evolve to eat the other animal/thing. (A rock is a resource too.)

I believe using a resource conversion chart will help with this. Basically, I propose that any given organisms's stomach can change compounds based on the possible conversions in the conversion chart. The organism would evolve certain conversions and would thus be able to build certain parts as well. (Protein is major.) A conversion chart could be in xml, and could then be edited for some interesting (out of this universe) evolutions.

roadkillguy wrote:

I've been attempting to propose this for a while..

But anyway, yes. Everything in a biome is a resource. A resource is made up of multiple compounds. Depending on the compounds in a resource, a given organism may or may not evolve to eat the other animal/thing. (A rock is a resource too.)

I believe using a resource conversion chart will help with this. Basically, I propose that any given organisms's stomach can change compounds based on the possible conversions in the conversion chart. The organism would evolve certain conversions and would thus be able to build certain parts as well. (Protein is major.) A conversion chart could be in xml, and could then be edited for some interesting (out of this universe) evolutions.

You know what, that does seem like quite a good idea when applied to this. I remember discussing breakdown of these proteins, etc.

That's more or less where we were going with tags, Roadkill, except that we have omnivores and the ability of certain species to eat certain types of plant where others can't. (Species one attribute: Accept Food Type Plant Stem, Leaf versus Accept Food Type Plant Fruit or Accept Food Type Plant All) Not being a programmer, I have no idea how this works into your system, and for that I apologize.

A chart could help immensely, and we wouldn't have to draw arrows anymore.

I agree with Roadkill on the need for a rescource system (pre-civ). While the tag system will tell you what an organism can or can't eat (and what it's prey is made of), we need a way of figuring that out, and that would be the rescource system. For example, if you have a mouth (or hands/other appendage) capable of gathering fruit, teeth capable of processing it, and a stomach capable of digesting it, then you can eat fruit [Accept: General food type: Plant: Fruit], if your missing any of those items then you can't. Similairly to eat meat you need to be able to take bites out of it, chew it, swallow it, and digest it. Depending on your stomach you can process these into different products too (fruit -> sugar/energy, meat -> protein -> used for growth).

While this may sounds like a lot of extra work, once you have a simple rescource system it should all work itself out fairly nicely.

I also like the idea of resource conversions, an organism would need to gather different food types in order to survive, grow, etc. This also means that organism would be dependant on multiple 'prey' types (I use the term 'prey' loosely, this could be another organism, a plant, or a rescource such as a salt lick, watering hole etc.), which helps diversify each species niche.

I'd also suggest that we think of niches in terms of parameters other than diet too. While we don't need to keep track of everything which would realistically constitute a niche parameter, there are atleast a few I'd suggest:

• Nesting habitat (burrow, vegetation, open ground? - also, materials required for nest building)
  
• Temperature/altitude range - this isn't entirely necessary, as biomes will be divided according to these parameters anyway
  
• Waking hours (nocturnal and diurnal organisms won't generally compete with eachother)
  

Many of these are parameters we'd have to keep track of for other reasons anyway, but they serve as additional parameters for defining niches, allowing for greater diversity. I'll try and come up with a more complete list of both realistic niche parameters, and ones we could reasonably use.

It's also worth remembering that species don't need to be in the same exact niche to compete with (and potentially exclude eachother), if multiple species share just one aspect of a niche (diet, habitat etc.) then they will compete for that aspect, hurting both species population (e.g.: rabbits and cows have very little in common, besides eating grass, but if you stick both in the same field then there will be less food for both). This isn't a problem, it simply means that species compete in more specific ways, allowing them to make more specific reactionary evolutions.

I need to think this through when I'm less tired, I'm not sure the above makes complete sense to me, so sorry if I confused anyone, or went over any old ground you've already covered.

I've been working on niche definitions for a bit, and I've come up with factors that define diet. These are:
What an animal:
can eat
can find
can catch
needs to eat

Also, using the OE as a template, I've come up with the different materials that an animal could eat off of another organism.

wood
bark
leaves
stems
fruits
seeds/nuts
roots
tubers/bulbs
fruiting bodies
sap

muscle
organs
fat
bone
skin
wormacle muscle
arthropod muscle
artthropod exoskeleton
body fluids

These materials are already defined by the OE, so they don't require a separate resource system. An organism's body makeup tells what can eat it, and its organs and structures tell what it can eat.
In a biome, there are also "level zero" materials that animals may need/eat. These are:

water
detritus
soil
bacteria
planktonic organisms

If I've forgotten anything, please tell me.

Now, matching up these materials with structures is the first step to determining what can and cannot be eaten. Another thing I've finished off is the use of toxins. All organisms will have a two digit resistance tag to determine what toxins they can resist, and to what extent. The tag looks like this:

[42]

Each digit is from 0 to 9 so there are 100 different resistances. Every animal or plant that creates a toxin or uses a toxin will have a toxin tag with the same formula. The difference between the resistance and toxin tags is the percent chance that a toxin will kill an organism.

So far, this looks like exactly what we need. I don't have much to contribute, but looking at this, and back to Spore's pre-release demos, I got an idea.

Couldn't we conceivably make a prototype for this system to test it out without the need of our game engine? If someone here is familiar with something like flash, or java, or any simple programing platform, we could make the basis of this in there. Organisms would get text descriptions, and we'd limit evolution to non-body based forms (Can you catch it wouldn't be the question, as that depends on values inherently connected to the rendering software.). Once done, we could release it to our fans and let them run the simulations, and report back to us with results. It would let us tweak and moniter the viability of our system while roadkill and the roadkillettes continue their tour of microbe stage.

Thoughts?

Tenebrarum wrote:

So far, this looks like exactly what we need. I don't have much to contribute, but looking at this, and back to Spore's pre-release demos, I got an idea.

Couldn't we conceivably make a prototype for this system to test it out without the need of our game engine? If someone here is familiar with something like flash, or java, or any simple programing platform, we could make the basis of this in there. Organisms would get text descriptions, and we'd limit evolution to non-body based forms (Can you catch it wouldn't be the question, as that depends on values inherently connected to the rendering software.). Once done, we could release it to our fans and let them run the simulations, and report back to us with results. It would let us tweak and moniter the viability of our system while roadkill and the roadkillettes continue their tour of microbe stage.

Thoughts?

That's not a half-bad idea. "Can you catch it" is really more connected to mobility and hunting methods.

~sciocont wrote:

That's not a half-bad idea. "Can you catch it" is really more connected to mobility and hunting methods.

Well yes, but things like weapons, armor, weak points, speed, etc. are all connected to the OE, which is yet to be made.

In this version, all players will be able to do is make template orgs by the looks of it, but that should still give us great information on how auto-evo treats different templates.

Tenebrarum wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

That's not a half-bad idea. "Can you catch it" is really more connected to mobility and hunting methods.

Well yes, but things like weapons, armor, weak points, speed, etc. are all connected to the OE, which is yet to be made.

In this version, all players will be able to do is make template orgs by the looks of it, but that should still give us great information on how auto-evo treats different templates.

Indeed.

Gracias, hermano mio. This will work quite perfectly for our biomes, and it's basically a refined version of the vague idea for food webs that we talked about. Good on you for introducing sap - I hadn't thought about it at all.

This will also make our scavengers very happy virtual creatures, due to the fact that resources inedible to one carnivore will be edible to others.

Tenebrarum wrote:

So far, this looks like exactly what we need. I don't have much to contribute, but looking at this, and back to Spore's pre-release demos, I got an idea.

Couldn't we conceivably make a prototype for this system to test it out without the need of our game engine? If someone here is familiar with something like flash, or java, or any simple programing platform, we could make the basis of this in there. Organisms would get text descriptions, and we'd limit evolution to non-body based forms (Can you catch it wouldn't be the question, as that depends on values inherently connected to the rendering software.). Once done, we could release it to our fans and let them run the simulations, and report back to us with results. It would let us tweak and moniter the viability of our system while roadkill and the roadkillettes continue their tour of microbe stage.

Thoughts?

You mean a basic, no-frills viability calculator? We have most of the maths squirreled away somewhere, just we'd have to have someone sit down and work on the definitions of all our tags.
I would personally love one. And it would be something we could get done relatively quickly, as we already have the OE set up.
Then if someone could make a plug-in for biomes, they would be my hero. Of course, I might have to finish biomes first... Belgium.

Also, @ "Roadkill and the Roadkillettes."

Quote :

Couldn't we conceivably make a prototype for this system to test it out without the need of our game engine? If someone here is familiar with something like flash, or java, or any simple programing platform, we could make the basis of this in there. Organisms would get text descriptions, and we'd limit evolution to non-body based forms (Can you catch it wouldn't be the question, as that depends on values inherently connected to the rendering software.). Once done, we could release it to our fans and let them run the simulations, and report back to us with results. It would let us tweak and moniter the viability of our system while roadkill and the roadkillettes continue their tour of microbe stage.

Thoughts?

Herp Derp! I've done that. But everybody here hates the command line, and GUIs are a pain in the Belgium.

I haven't heard from Guitar999111 since Mid-August. I really only want to program if other people are programming too. You cant design a game without programmers, period.

roadkillguy wrote:

Quote :

Couldn't we conceivably make a prototype for this system to test it out without the need of our game engine? If someone here is familiar with something like flash, or java, or any simple programing platform, we could make the basis of this in there. Organisms would get text descriptions, and we'd limit evolution to non-body based forms (Can you catch it wouldn't be the question, as that depends on values inherently connected to the rendering software.). Once done, we could release it to our fans and let them run the simulations, and report back to us with results. It would let us tweak and moniter the viability of our system while roadkill and the roadkillettes continue their tour of microbe stage.

Thoughts?

Herp Derp! I've done that. But everybody here hates the command line, and GUIs are a pain in the Belgium.

I haven't heard from Guitar999111 since Mid-August. I really only want to program if other people are programming too. You cant design a game without programmers, period.

I'll put up an update soon and call for programmers to come forward.

Hold on, Roadkill! I might join your C goodnes soon(tm)*.

*Valve time. Might vary from one day to one lifetime.

My current learning project looks like this (link!) at the moment, and considering I have started it four days ago (along with C++ at all), it may take some time before I become actually usable in the coding team. (just to clarify, it's based on SDL and has sounds, simple movement and collisions in place right now).

Commander Keen wrote:

Hold on, Roadkill! I might join your C goodnes soon(tm)*.

*Valve time. Might vary from one day to one lifetime.

My current learning project looks like this (link!) at the moment, and considering I have started it four days ago (along with C++ at all), it may take some time before I become actually usable in the coding team. (just to clarify, it's based on SDL and has sounds, simple movement and collisions in place right now).

Thank ADMIN for another coder we know for absolute certain is dedicated. I tried to learn myself, but let's just say I have at least one insideous little mental block and leave it at that.

Back to my original post there, I wrote it thinking on our number of members familiar with Java or Flash coding, but not C++. It was just supposed to help test our ideas and appease fans/attract members while you keep plugging away like you have roadkill. If the calculations are already done though, how far along are we? I assumed they needed at least a baseline engine to go anywhere. We still didn't even have the combat concept fully down last time I checked. (Still looking for feedback on that everyone.) Have you been messiah and worked several miracles while my back was turned? AGAIN?

Tenebrarum wrote:

Back to my original post there, I wrote it thinking on our number of members familiar with Java or Flash coding, but not C++. It was just supposed to help test our ideas and appease fans/attract members while you keep plugging away like you have roadkill. If the calculations are already done though, how far along are we?

Zip. I asked for concrete equations way back when, but it was overlooked.

https://thrivegame.canadaboard.net/t575p60-npc-auto-evo-thread?highlight=NPC+auto+evo

roadkillguy wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

Back to my original post there, I wrote it thinking on our number of members familiar with Java or Flash coding, but not C++. It was just supposed to help test our ideas and appease fans/attract members while you keep plugging away like you have roadkill. If the calculations are already done though, how far along are we?

Zip. I asked for concrete equations way back when, but it was overlooked.

https://thrivegame.canadaboard.net/t575p60-npc-auto-evo-thread?highlight=NPC+auto+evo

I'll work on some maths, but I've been pretty busy. At least with the last tweak the system doesn't have arms races that exclude species from evolving, so the algorithm is simpler since it doesn't have tpo have anything for arms race prevention.

Algorithm? Where's your pseudo-code?

Basically, you have organisms. Change them ever so slightly, and then put them into their appropriate niches. How.

~sciocont wrote:

roadkillguy wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

Back to my original post there, I wrote it thinking on our number of members familiar with Java or Flash coding, but not C++. It was just supposed to help test our ideas and appease fans/attract members while you keep plugging away like you have roadkill. If the calculations are already done though, how far along are we?

Zip. I asked for concrete equations way back when, but it was overlooked.

https://thrivegame.canadaboard.net/t575p60-npc-auto-evo-thread?highlight=NPC+auto+evo

I'll work on some maths, but I've been pretty busy. At least with the last tweak the system doesn't have arms races that exclude species from evolving, so the algorithm is simpler since it doesn't have tpo have anything for arms race prevention.

^ Thank goodness for that. That was my biggest issue with the system as it stood.

You will get some maths for determining biomes when I have shoehorned all our biomes into a system, Roadkill. (So, either for christmas or over spring break... pending disasters over here, like term papers or me screwing up my ankle again.)

I'm going to get to this soon. I've been sick and busy all week.

Hello gentlemen, let's shake off all the cobwebs here and start discussing cool new things, shall we?

The concept of organisms being able to consume a specific resource out of another organism for position into a niche of the food web seems really effective and simple to me. I suspect this discussion revolved around the "creature" food web idea, not cellular, adn since we are currently focusing on this stage, I'm going to start the discussion about cell food webs.

As I stated in other threads I think the cell part fo the engine must be simplified since they are clearly simpler in every aspect, so I propose that we grab the Resource Conversion idea, we simplify it a bit to fit the cells requirements and then we could start to specify wich resources are we going to deal at this scale, and how will build the food web with this variables moving around.

I don't know if it's any tangible food web prototype around, personally I have seen none, so we can use this game stage to build a simple food we, and on top of it the more complex food webs we'll encounter further in other stages.

I'm going to do some research about what resources a cell can use and i'll post some ideas later

Ok, we need to start with roadkill's resource idea, and outline what things in the microbial editor are made up of what resources, and what resources are needed to make them. Each microbe (org) has input and output tags. Input is what it needs to eat, output is what it can provide if something eats it.

~sciocont wrote:

Ok, we need to start with roadkill's resource idea, and outline what things in the microbial editor are made up of what resources, and what resources are needed to make them. Each microbe (org) has input and output tags. Input is what it needs to eat, output is what it can provide if something eats it.

And here I thought this idea was shot down like a plane over north korea.

Honestly it's the only way it will be clean in the code.

roadkillguy wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

Ok, we need to start with roadkill's resource idea, and outline what things in the microbial editor are made up of what resources, and what resources are needed to make them. Each microbe (org) has input and output tags. Input is what it needs to eat, output is what it can provide if something eats it.

And here I thought this idea was shot down like a plane over north korea.

Honestly it's the only way it will be clean in the code.

Nope, you've done very well here. And points for the good joke.

And here I thought this idea was shot down like a plane over north korea[/quote]

Or like a rocket over north korea!