How Will Science Work?

So I have covered several of the other aspects of society stage, but this one is bugging me. I thought of a model for science, and its effects, but as far as I can see science is a useless value until you hit Scientific Method. Here is why.

This is my current model:

Science represents rate of technological growth. It is affected by technology, buildings, policies, events, education, and scholars. Each tech has a set number of science that is required to research it. When you are researching a tech, your science goes towards filling that requirement; thus the requirement divided by your science equals time. Now, science is a rate, like I mentioned before. It would look something like this:

x Science/y units of time

Let's say we are researching Steam Engine. The amount of science required to research Steam Engine is 100. Our rate during the course of the entire research time is 10 Science/1 minute (real life time). Therefore, the time it would take for Steam Engine to be researched would be:

Time = 100 Science / 10 Science/1 minute
Time = 10 minutes

It is a very simple equation based off of the speed equals distance over time equation. However, here is where I run into a dilemma. Techs are not directly researchable until Scientific Method is unlocked. They are only discovered as a result of your actions. Also, I am pretty sure that many techs afterwards are discovered likewise, but can still be directly researched. This brings me to my final question, what is the point of science before Scientific Method if it doesn't affect research rate? What was the originally intended purpose of science anyway?

Note: I was thinking that after Scientific Method is discovered, techs could be directly researched as I stated or be discovered as a result of your actions. Putting the two systems together.

EDIT: Btw, the required Science of techs would rise as you go higher into the tech tree, because the player's Science would be rising likewise. (Like Civ games)

Aye, but...
Diffrent nations, ect. will have diffrent science points addition.
I mean, not only 10 per min.

It depends on tons of stuff like Your prograssion on the philospy of science (How orginzied your science is.) Or computesrs, ect.

Let's put it out like this.

Our base is zero, we add that the amount of money we give to science and the labs, ect. and how advanced are equipment is.


0 + Points for labs and academys + Points for Equipment + Andy other bounuses. = Your points per min.

I actually wasn't aware of the 'tech discovered by experimentation' concept. I do think that there will be techs at every stage in history which are effectively researched, either by trial and error (a crude scientific method), or by philosophical thinking. Perhaps its possible to combine the two systems in another way (this is only a suggestion, and one of many options):

Experimentation (on the part of the player, or his creatures), leads to the discovery of new potential technologies, but actual research is required to acquire them. There are many examples of technologies which can be easily discovered, but require significant experimentation to get working well, such as:
- fire lighting (discover: watch lightning start a fire, research: effective ways of doing it yourself -> flint striker)
- early boats (discover: notice a floating tree trunk, research: develop a crude raft)
- primitive building (discover: shelter in a cave, research: develop a simple lean-to)
- iron working (discover: melt iron ore on a fire, research: actually working iron ore into a useful form is extremely involved, and would take years to perfect)
...and so on.

This may not apply to all techs, but would give research some meaning before scientific method. Other techs may be discovered simply by having sufficient scholars working (philosophy, mathematics), effectively thinking about new things to, erm, think about.

@ido66667: The rate of 100 was just for the purposes of the example. Your nation's rate will obviously be affected by a multitude of things and increase over time.

@Seregon: I think that is a very good idea. That way, Science can apply before Scientific Method and tech advancement isn't as random and spontaneous. I think making a sort of system like in Galactic Civilizations II where techs had several levels would work. The first level of a tech is the part that is discovered, like you said, and then the later advancements are researched.

NickTheNick wrote:

@ido66667: The rate of 100 was just for the purposes of the example. Your nation's rate will obviously be affected by a multitude of things and increase over time.

@Seregon: I think that is a very good idea. That way, Science can apply before Scientific Method and tech advancement isn't as random and spontaneous. I think making a sort of system like in Galactic Civilizations II where techs had several levels would work. The first level of a tech is the part that is discovered, like you said, and then the later advancements are researched.

I know!
Let's make a Civilization kind of thing tree.
You know, Ages, Ect.
And for the points...
Can you give me a few things that you would like to be inculded in a calculation and maybe I can come up with a calculation!

ido66667 wrote:

I know!
Let's make a Civilization kind of thing tree.
You know, Ages, Ect.
And for the points...
Can you give me a few things that you would like to be inculded in a calculation and maybe I can come up with a calculation!

It doesn't have to be specifically cut into ages. I think cutting into ages kind of draws it towards Earth history. Although an Industrial Age is probably an age every race experiences, I doubt other races would have a medieval age, or they might have a classical age at a different point. Also, in Civilization reaching a new age had more purpose, since it would mean all of your models for your units are updated, there would be a short cutscene or picture, and the background music would change. Thrive will not have any in game cutscenes or pop up pictures and models are designed in the Editors. For those reasons, I wouldn't go with ages.

That being said, the player should be able to go into the history of his species and label different time periods as different ages. This also gets me thinking about Golden Ages. I will draft up something for that soon. Obviously culture and money and stuff will increase the likelihood of it starting, and also I need to think of some effects.

Anyways, if we are going to create a tech tree like Seregon said, then we need to start thinking of research values for the different techs.

p.s. Sorry, I don't have anything ready for calculations yet.

NickTheNick wrote:

ido66667 wrote:

I know!
Let's make a Civilization kind of thing tree.
You know, Ages, Ect.
And for the points...
Can you give me a few things that you would like to be inculded in a calculation and maybe I can come up with a calculation!

It doesn't have to be specifically cut into ages. I think cutting into ages kind of draws it towards Earth history. Although an Industrial Age is probably an age every race experiences, I doubt other races would have a medieval age, or they might have a classical age at a different point. Also, in Civilization reaching a new age had more purpose, since it would mean all of your models for your units are updated, there would be a short cutscene or picture, and the background music would change. Thrive will not have any in game cutscenes or pop up pictures and models are designed in the Editors. For those reasons, I wouldn't go with ages.

That being said, the player should be able to go into the history of his species and label different time periods as different ages. This also gets me thinking about Golden Ages. I will draft up something for that soon. Obviously culture and money and stuff will increase the likelihood of it starting, and also I need to think of some effects.

Anyways, if we are going to create a tech tree like Seregon said, then we need to start thinking of research values for the different techs.

p.s. Sorry, I don't have anything ready for calculations yet.

Golden age...

x = Your nomal money gain.
y = Golden age bonus.
s = Science point gain.
c = Caultural gain (If there is such a thing...)

x + y
s + y
c + s
Ect.

Normal + Bonus.
Easy to program, Great Idea!

ido66667 wrote:

NickTheNick wrote:

ido66667 wrote:

I know!
Let's make a Civilization kind of thing tree.
You know, Ages, Ect.
And for the points...
Can you give me a few things that you would like to be inculded in a calculation and maybe I can come up with a calculation!

It doesn't have to be specifically cut into ages. I think cutting into ages kind of draws it towards Earth history. Although an Industrial Age is probably an age every race experiences, I doubt other races would have a medieval age, or they might have a classical age at a different point. Also, in Civilization reaching a new age had more purpose, since it would mean all of your models for your units are updated, there would be a short cutscene or picture, and the background music would change. Thrive will not have any in game cutscenes or pop up pictures and models are designed in the Editors. For those reasons, I wouldn't go with ages.

That being said, the player should be able to go into the history of his species and label different time periods as different ages. This also gets me thinking about Golden Ages. I will draft up something for that soon. Obviously culture and money and stuff will increase the likelihood of it starting, and also I need to think of some effects.

Anyways, if we are going to create a tech tree like Seregon said, then we need to start thinking of research values for the different techs.

p.s. Sorry, I don't have anything ready for calculations yet.

Golden age...

x = Your nomal money gain.
y = Golden age bonus.
s = Science point gain.
c = Caultural gain (If there is such a thing...)

x + y
s + y
c + s
Ect.

Normal + Bonus.
Easy to program, Great Idea!

too easy for words really.

Yeah the effects are very easy to think of and trigger. Since this thread has served its purpose, let's brainstorm here and then I'll compile everything at the end and we can make a separate "Golden Ages" thread.

However, for the trigger of a golden age I was thinking that it be a percentage chance per minute. For example, if a player's Trigger Chance was 2%, that means every minute the computer rolls a dice or something and if it hits that 2%, a golden age fires off. The trigger would obviously have to be turned off for the duration of the Golden Age, then the player would get some effect immediately after the Golden Age (let's just call it GA from now on) ends that makes it impossible to get another Golden age until a certain amount of time has passed, or at least makes it very unlikely.

High Culture, Science, maybe Health, Happiness, Stability, Production, and other values all increase the chance of getting GA's, but only by small increments of 1% or lower. We don't want people getting GA's left and right, it is more a challenge and achievement to strive to.

However, this raises a problem. Although Happiness and Stability are relatively constant variables, Culture, Science, Health, and Production all increase over time. If the requirements for getting GA's don't increase over time likewise, then in the late stages of the game the player will have like 80% chances of getting a GA per minute or some other insanely high value. To keep this in check, the base chance of getting a GA (excluding the bonuses of given to it by your nation) needs to decrease each time.

NickTheNick wrote:

Yeah the effects are very easy to think of and trigger. Since this thread has served its purpose, let's brainstorm here and then I'll compile everything at the end and we can make a separate "Golden Ages" thread.

However, for the trigger of a golden age I was thinking that it be a percentage chance per minute. For example, if a player's Trigger Chance was 2%, that means every minute the computer rolls a dice or something and if it hits that 2%, a golden age fires off. The trigger would obviously have to be turned off for the duration of the Golden Age, then the player would get some effect immediately after the Golden Age (let's just call it GA from now on) ends that makes it impossible to get another Golden age until a certain amount of time has passed, or at least makes it very unlikely.

High Culture, Science, maybe Health, Happiness, Stability, Production, and other values all increase the chance of getting GA's, but only by small increments of 1% or lower. We don't want people getting GA's left and right, it is more a challenge and achievement to strive to.

However, this raises a problem. Although Happiness and Stability are relatively constant variables, Culture, Science, Health, and Production all increase over time. If the requirements for getting GA's don't increase over time likewise, then in the late stages of the game the player will have like 80% chances of getting a GA per minute or some other insanely high value. To keep this in check, the base chance of getting a GA (excluding the bonuses of given to it by your nation) needs to decrease each time.

More math:
Chances.

Bonus = {x|n%<x>y%}

x + bonus = z%

The incrisment in request ment.

f(GA Requstment) = Requstment + y%