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 Custom Organelles

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DragonEye4
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PostSubject: Custom Organelles   Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:10 pm

We have a parts creator for advanced creatures, so maybe we should have the ability to design our own organnelles, instead of just using pre-made ones. We would need organelles that perform certain functions, but not exact replicas of earth ones, that could do their jobs differently.
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Organelles   Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:59 am

that sounds good, but how will you make them and give em function?
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Organelles   Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:34 am

eumesmo wrote:
that sounds good, but how will you make them and give em function?
A good question.
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Organelles   Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:31 am

If it were me I'd likely be having a hard time giving the parts their functions, let alone create it and finish with a realistic result. I'm sure the majority of casual gamers, playing Thrive for a first time and using this feature, may feel the same way.. But it might be accessable in an add-on.

And, by the way I know this doesn't actually pertain to the topic of the thread, but here's how I think add-ons should be handled. Add-ons can be turned on and off either in some menu or a separate program altogether, though still related to Thrive. Chances are it'll have 'Thrive' in its title ('Thrive Add-on Manager', something like that), and a list of all add-ons you have; name, date added, all that jazz-- each with a check box beside it. Ticking it on will enable it, ticking it off will disable it.

Just popped into my head.

Oh, yeah, and sorry for my absence. I may be active in intervals, though, I don't really have much free time, and we have a field trip later today.


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PostSubject: Re: Custom Organelles   Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:34 am

You could have an editor, but a whole editor just for this... Maybe it could be included for modders, like the parts editor!
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Organelles   Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:15 pm

DragonEye4 wrote:
We have a parts creator for advanced creatures, so maybe we should have the ability to design our own organnelles, instead of just using pre-made ones. We would need organelles that perform certain functions, but not exact replicas of earth ones, that could do their jobs differently.
We don't have a parts editor. I burned that idea with the universal OE.

So don't say we do.

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The Uteen
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Organelles   Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:04 pm

~sciocont wrote:
DragonEye4 wrote:
We have a parts creator for advanced creatures, so maybe we should have the ability to design our own organnelles, instead of just using pre-made ones. We would need organelles that perform certain functions, but not exact replicas of earth ones, that could do their jobs differently.
We don't have a parts editor. I burned that idea with the universal OE.

So don't say we do.

I must have missed that.
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Organelles   Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:09 pm

we dont? so how can we make parts for things, i mean they can grow and evolve, but a part editor i think it is needed...specially for god mode making of creatures
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Organelles   Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:38 pm

eumesmo wrote:
we dont? so how can we make parts for things, i mean they can grow and evolve, but a part editor i think it is needed...specially for god mode making of creatures

Maaybe..

I think Bashinerox said something, some time ago, about parts, rather than being preset being made out of the most basic essentials. So instead of preset hands you'd have a set of bones, maybe some other parts made of determined materials, shaped differently. But why? Well, as he said, if a player edits that preset part then any made creature using that part, uploaded after the player edited the part it used, would be broken. Or something like that. So instead we reduce it to the basics, and the part- say, that hand we mentioned earlier, into those bones, which can be arranged into any way you want then turned into a new part. The game, procedural animation and all would do the rest.

All in all, a part editor could be easier and a likelier possibility if we follow Bashinerox's methods. My opinion on the editor is still neutral, though. The debate still continues.

I'm searching for Bash's original post right now so as to provide linkage.

EDIT: 'Ere it is! First post.
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Organelles   Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:52 pm

oh... but there'll be preset fundamental units... i was understanding that it'd be done from thin air and it was making no sence to me...
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Organelles   Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:01 pm

Noitulove wrote:
eumesmo wrote:
we dont? so how can we make parts for things, i mean they can grow and evolve, but a part editor i think it is needed...specially for god mode making of creatures

Maaybe..

I think Bashinerox said something, some time ago, about parts, rather than being preset being made out of the most basic essentials. So instead of preset hands you'd have a set of bones, maybe some other parts made of determined materials, shaped differently. But why? Well, as he said, if a player edits that preset part then any made creature using that part, uploaded after the player edited the part it used, would be broken. Or something like that. So instead we reduce it to the basics, and the part- say, that hand we mentioned earlier, into those bones, which can be arranged into any way you want then turned into a new part. The game, procedural animation and all would do the rest.

All in all, a part editor could be easier and a likelier possibility if we follow Bashinerox's methods. My opinion on the editor is still neutral, though. The debate still continues.

I'm searching for Bash's original post right now so as to provide linkage.

EDIT: 'Ere it is! First post.
YEARGH> READ THE OE CURRENT CONCEPT!!!

That's how it Belgium ing works.

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PostSubject: Re: Custom Organelles   Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:33 am

Back to original topic...
Well, everything's pretty basic in a single cell (or even a Belgiumming jellyfish) so I don't think we're going to want to get too creative with organelles. That said, we have some "optional" organelles and some absolutely necessary ones.

required:
Cell Membrane. Or it meets the fate of the falling whale. Messy.
Vacuole. A cell's got to eat, you know.
Nucleus and all related parephenalia - I don't know if we're programming these suckers, but for, say, disease organisms, we could actually have this as a functional link to the thing's data. Not too deep, though - we don't want anyone accidentally exploding their game because we (like EA) leave the sizzling antimatter drive exposed for them to drop things in.
Mitochondrion (with optional farandolae). Stores a copy of genetic information. Seem redundant? Well, yours come from your mom, and it also is the combustion chamber for the cell's fuel.
Golgi Apparatus: tbh, I'm not certain that we need to go too into depth on this, but it has a lot to do with proteins.
Endoplasmic Reticulum: more of the same obscure things. If we go to really specialized microbes, the ER, Golgi, and Nucleus would be instrumental in storing the cell's instructions: such as "produce this product, attack cells like this one, etc."

optional:
Chloroplasts. For plant cells/algae/symbiotic "plant" microbes, etc. Makes sugar.
Chromatophores: Some cells exist to change color. Like Chameleon skin cells.
Cell Wall: some option to stiffen the cell membrane or something. Or one to "grow Cell Wall" around the outer membrane. Prevents the cell from changing shape, reduces water loss (and mobility.) Technically, it's a different thing than the Cell Membrane, and technically both are present in plant cells. But the above two options might be easier, programming wise, as it's got to fit to the shape of the cell.
Autoimmune attack structure: The specialized organelle set a white blood cell uses to react to threats. If I were going to engineer a cell in real life, I'd make one of these that could reproduce itself and be compatable with the host's white blood cell system. I'd win the Nobel Prizel, too.

So, I think we should offer up some organelles a'la carte. Or we could let the modders in and have them make their own in addition. The amounts of data stored when we start to do that, however... this is not going to be an easy game for my laptop to handle.

Thanks to Tenebrarum and the Uteen for noticing my mistype.


Last edited by Mysterious_Calligrapher on Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Organelles   Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:06 am

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
required:
Cell wall. Or it meets the fate of the falling whale. Messy.

That should be cell membrane, not cell wall. A cell wall is different, and optional. The cell wall would make the cell keep a certain shape, and stop it being absorbed. It also stops the cell absorbing other things, too, so this would work only really on a photosynthesising cell, maybe thermosynthesising ones, too.
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Organelles   Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:42 am

Noitulove wrote:
eumesmo wrote:
we dont? so how can we make parts for things, i mean they can grow and evolve, but a part editor i think it is needed...specially for god mode making of creatures

Maaybe..

I think Bashinerox said something, some time ago, about parts, rather than being preset being made out of the most basic essentials. So instead of preset hands you'd have a set of bones, maybe some other parts made of determined materials, shaped differently. But why? Well, as he said, if a player edits that preset part then any made creature using that part, uploaded after the player edited the part it used, would be broken. Or something like that. So instead we reduce it to the basics, and the part- say, that hand we mentioned earlier, into those bones, which can be arranged into any way you want then turned into a new part. The game, procedural animation and all would do the rest.

All in all, a part editor could be easier and a likelier possibility if we follow Bashinerox's methods. My opinion on the editor is still neutral, though. The debate still continues.

I'm searching for Bash's original post right now so as to provide linkage.

EDIT: 'Ere it is! First post.


I was talking about the underlying technology, weither or not to use an incremental data model, not how to build creatures.


Mysterious Calligrapher wrote:
longpost is long

I like you. Stick around.
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Tenebrarum
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Organelles   Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:56 pm

Bashinerox wrote:
Mysterious Calligrapher wrote:
longpost is long

I like you. Stick around.

QFT
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Organelles   Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:28 pm

The Uteen wrote:
Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
required:
Cell wall. Or it meets the fate of the falling whale. Messy.

That should be cell membrane, not cell wall. A cell wall is different, and optional. The cell wall would make the cell keep a certain shape, and stop it being absorbed. It also stops the cell absorbing other things, too, so this would work only really on a photosynthesising cell, maybe thermosynthesising ones, too.

Mistype! It is late when the calligrapher posts. Yeah, I'll go up and fix that. Cell wall wouldn't be too hard of an option: we'd just have an option to "stiffen" the membrane or something like that. Easy fix.
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Organelles   Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:31 pm

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
required:
Cell wall. Or it meets the fate of the falling whale. Messy.

That should be cell membrane, not cell wall. A cell wall is different, and optional. The cell wall would make the cell keep a certain shape, and stop it being absorbed. It also stops the cell absorbing other things, too, so this would work only really on a photosynthesising cell, maybe thermosynthesising ones, too.

Mistype! It is late when the calligrapher posts. Yeah, I'll go up and fix that. Cell wall wouldn't be too hard of an option: we'd just have an option to "stiffen" the membrane or something like that. Easy fix.

No. It's seperate. All cells have membranes. Plant cells and bacteria also have walls in addition to membranes. Bacteria have capsules in addition to that.
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Organelles   Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:44 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
required:
Cell wall. Or it meets the fate of the falling whale. Messy.

That should be cell membrane, not cell wall. A cell wall is different, and optional. The cell wall would make the cell keep a certain shape, and stop it being absorbed. It also stops the cell absorbing other things, too, so this would work only really on a photosynthesising cell, maybe thermosynthesising ones, too.

Mistype! It is late when the calligrapher posts. Yeah, I'll go up and fix that. Cell wall wouldn't be too hard of an option: we'd just have an option to "stiffen" the membrane or something like that. Easy fix.

No. It's seperate. All cells have membranes. Plant cells and bacteria also have walls in addition to membranes. Bacteria have capsules in addition to that.
Yes, but need we program an extra wrapper? I know they're distinct from each other, but I think we should save Bashi the trouble of programming two outer wrappers on our little cells. Additionally, encysting/encapsulating is not the same thing, as bacteria only have it sometimes. (Maybe there should be an organelle for that.) The capsule on a bacterium is essentially a protein layer, and it could be either gram positive or gram negative... I say for programming, we have the options of "grow a cell wall" and "grow bacteria capsule" to the cell membrane. Save our programmers some code.
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PostSubject: Re: Custom Organelles   Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:47 pm

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
Yes, but need we program an extra wrapper? I know they're distinct from each other, but I think we should save Bashi the trouble of programming two outer wrappers on our little cells. Additionally, encysting/encapsulating is not the same thing, as bacteria only have it sometimes. (Maybe there should be an organelle for that.) The capsule on a bacterium is essentially a protein layer, and it could be either gram positive or gram negative... I say for programming, we have the options of "grow a cell wall" and "grow bacteria capsule" to the cell membrane. Save our programmers some code.

I really don't see how this is anything prohibitively difficult. Membrane is default. Cell in a part. Heck, having to program the intermediacies if we use your slider option would be more difficult in my mind.
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