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 Gaining Intelligence

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Commander Keen
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:00 pm

There is a little flaw in your theory. If there is a nearly sapient species and your herbivores are still dumb, the nearly sappient species would get God mode before you could even evolve sapience.
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:55 pm

The Uteen wrote:
I don't want to forget completely about the diet of a herbivore, so let's just say they eat very high-energy plants for this example:

There is a herbivore prey species, and it's predator is a fairly sapient (not civilised yet) purely predatory species. This sapient predator can learn how the prey species hides from it, and its common choice of hiding place. The prey needs to do something, because without being able to hide properly, it is almost totally defenceless. Therefore, it needs to come up with other ways of avoiding detection, and it needs to be able to think them, not slowly evolve to change its habits. Therefore, over time, this lucky prey species becomes able to imagine other ways to hide, beginning the unstoppable process of development, and imagination develops into conscious thought, and conscious thought develops into sentience and sapience.

It's possible, you just need a little imagination (which develops into conscious thought, and conscious thought develops into sentience and sapience, so us humans are well on our way to become intelligent :lol:).

It's more likely that it'd just evolve to run faster.
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:21 pm

yeah, that's what deer-like animals do.
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:20 am

Brain Power takes more energy than most of adaptations and would most certainly not be chosen for unless it could afford it with a large amount of energy remaining. This is why meat and other high protein foods were our road to Sapience.
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:48 am

GamerXA wrote:
Brain Power takes more energy than most of adaptations and would most certainly not be chosen for unless it could afford it with a large amount of energy remaining. This is why meat and other high protein foods were our road to Sapience.

And why carnivorous plants eating larger animals may be the way.
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:50 am

The Uteen wrote:
so let's just say they eat very high-energy plants for this example

They are good plants. Maybe they eat carnivorous plants!

But yeah, I suppose it would be fairly unlikely they would evolve creativity to defend themselves... But it is possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:30 pm

"Get godmode before you even develop sentience"? You are thinking linear and Spore-like. Every step of the way requires something new. Just because your predators are smarter than you now doesn't mean you will never beat them in the long run.
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:45 pm

Ignore most of this thread, it's old.

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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:54 pm

Let's get this clear. We could have a food chain like this. Sentient, strong hebivore>Carnivorous, nutritous plant>Non-sentient, weak herbivore>Autotrophic, non-nutritous plant>Home star
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:14 pm

With our compounds system, there is no "high energy" anything. You eat the compounds that you can digest, and those compounds come from different organisms.

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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:22 pm

Well, that's even better. Any compound would have enough juice for intelligence. But it also requires REASON. Such reason has been discussed. Escape from predators. "Well, it'll still cost less energy to run away!" You don't understand. Evolution does not concern a Spore-like guy ging from retarded plankton, to more-retarded bug. It is random, with a dude born with the birth defect of a slightly larger brain. "But this isn't random!!" Even better. You will intentionally click a button to make him more intelligent if you have those points.
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:37 am

guys you are limiting yourselves to earth's pattern... what if my planet does not have any carnivores/ omnivores or i am big enough to be on the top of the food chain, will i still be unable to become sentient as an herbivore? don't cripple herbivores with inability to achieve sentience in the game just because of the though evolutionary luck they had on earth. also to counter your previous comments look at a triceratops a complete herbivore that mostly stood and fought so it could technically develop new methods (and weapons) to bring down its opponents (things like what body part to poke) through trial and error thus slowly achieving thoughts, simple tactics and after that sentience. now imagine my creature a triceratops with an arm coming out of its rear ; so i'm having a low nutritious diet in a herbivore that is on its path to sentience. so it is possible to have a herbivorous sentient creature without some fancy diet that !!!MAY NOT EVEN BE AVAILABLE ON MY PLANET!!!. also plz respond to my idea on aware combat.
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:18 am

Actually, the reason herbivores have had little success is not because of the lack of NEED for intelligence, but lack of ABILITY. Meat has far more nutrition than plants and is used for a large brain. Now, your alien Triceratops may feed on nutritous alien plants so it may be available. But if the plants don't have enough, AND you want to become sentient, you would simply change him into a carnivore or omnivore and try again.
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:39 am

Deathbite42 wrote:
Actually, the reason herbivores have had little success is not because of the lack of NEED for intelligence, but lack of ABILITY. Meat has far more nutrition than plants and is used for a large brain. Now, your alien Triceratops may feed on nutritous alien plants so it may be available. But if the plants don't have enough, AND you want to become sentient, you would simply change him into a carnivore or omnivore and try again.
... what do you mean? i just listed a possibility in which a herbivore with an "inferior" diet can become sentient also look at an orangutan: compared to other animals it is a little "smarter" and its only carnivorous behavior is when it eats ants, so it achieved an intellectual superiority with a diet of low nutritious foods by slowing its metabolism... yet another way of achieving sentience with an inferior diet.
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:03 am

RagingBeaver wrote:
Deathbite42 wrote:
Actually, the reason herbivores have had little success is not because of the lack of NEED for intelligence, but lack of ABILITY. Meat has far more nutrition than plants and is used for a large brain. Now, your alien Triceratops may feed on nutritous alien plants so it may be available. But if the plants don't have enough, AND you want to become sentient, you would simply change him into a carnivore or omnivore and try again.
... what do you mean? i just listed a possibility in which a herbivore with an "inferior" diet can become sentient
No, I showed you that either it is NOT an "inferior diet' or it can NOT become sentient.

RagingBeaver wrote:
also look at an orangutan: compared to other animals it is a little "smarter" and its only carnivorous behavior is when it eats ants, so it achieved an intellectual superiority with a diet of low nutritious foods by slowing its metabolism... yet another way of achieving sentience with an inferior diet.
A little smarter is not sentience. Let me explain. On Earth, there are a few groups whose members are all a little smarter.
Corvids
Pscitacciformes
Maniraptorans
Cephalopods
Cetaceans
Primates
But in each of these, there are those who are A LOT smarter than the rest. You could say "Potential Sentients".
Corvus
Psittacine
Troodon
Octopod
Delphinid
Homo
Only one of these "Potential Sentients" really became sentient. You know which one. (Hopefully.) And maybe the ants are what makes it a little smarter anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:07 pm

Deathbite42 wrote:
RagingBeaver wrote:
Deathbite42 wrote:
Actually, the reason herbivores have had little success is not because of the lack of NEED for intelligence, but lack of ABILITY. Meat has far more nutrition than plants and is used for a large brain. Now, your alien Triceratops may feed on nutritous alien plants so it may be available. But if the plants don't have enough, AND you want to become sentient, you would simply change him into a carnivore or omnivore and try again.
... what do you mean? i just listed a possibility in which a herbivore with an "inferior" diet can become sentient
No, I showed you that either it is NOT an "inferior diet' or it can NOT become sentient.

RagingBeaver wrote:
also look at an orangutan: compared to other animals it is a little "smarter" and its only carnivorous behavior is when it eats ants, so it achieved an intellectual superiority with a diet of low nutritious foods by slowing its metabolism... yet another way of achieving sentience with an inferior diet.
A little smarter is not sentience. Let me explain. On Earth, there are a few groups whose members are all a little smarter.
Corvids
Pscitacciformes
Maniraptorans
Cephalopods
Cetaceans
Primates
But in each of these, there are those who are A LOT smarter than the rest. You could say "Potential Sentients".
Corvus
Psittacine
Troodon
Octopod
Delphinid
Homo
Only one of these "Potential Sentients" really became sentient. You know which one. (Hopefully.) And maybe the ants are what makes it a little smarter anyway.

QFT

Just because it occurs on Earth doesn't mean it is an Earth pattern. Gravity occurs on Earth, and that is not an Earth exclusive pattern.

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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:30 pm

I feel like if organisms evolve eating plants, a new organism will evolve to eat the herbivores due to the over whelming amount of competition for food because the only consumers are eating from the same source.
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:37 pm

That makes it sound like One Plant=One Planet. You should have MORE plants than herbivores, and anyway, there are many parts of a plant and stages in its life, so I doubt this would cause carnivores
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:40 pm

Deathbite42 wrote:
RagingBeaver wrote:
Deathbite42 wrote:
Actually, the reason herbivores have had little success is not because of the lack of NEED for intelligence, but lack of ABILITY. Meat has far more nutrition than plants and is used for a large brain. Now, your alien Triceratops may feed on nutritous alien plants so it may be available. But if the plants don't have enough, AND you want to become sentient, you would simply change him into a carnivore or omnivore and try again.
... what do you mean? i just listed a possibility in which a herbivore with an "inferior" diet can become sentient
No, I showed you that either it is NOT an "inferior diet' or it can NOT become sentient.

RagingBeaver wrote:
also look at an orangutan: compared to other animals it is a little "smarter" and its only carnivorous behavior is when it eats ants, so it achieved an intellectual superiority with a diet of low nutritious foods by slowing its metabolism... yet another way of achieving sentience with an inferior diet.
A little smarter is not sentience. Let me explain. On Earth, there are a few groups whose members are all a little smarter.
Corvids
Pscitacciformes
Maniraptorans
Cephalopods
Cetaceans
Primates
But in each of these, there are those who are A LOT smarter than the rest. You could say "Potential Sentients".
Corvus
Psittacine
Troodon
Octopod
Delphinid
Homo
Only one of these "Potential Sentients" really became sentient. You know which one. (Hopefully.) And maybe the ants are what makes it a little smarter anyway.
a little smarter is all that you need in order to win the overall race for sentience (if you decide to participate in it); also to become sentient you need a "big brain", and to get it you don't need a highly nutritious diet... i get your point it surely helps to have an advantageous diet BUT IT ISN'T MANDATORY -again look at the orangutans-
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:51 pm

NickTheNick wrote:
Deathbite42 wrote:
RagingBeaver wrote:
Deathbite42 wrote:
Actually, the reason herbivores have had little success is not because of the lack of NEED for intelligence, but lack of ABILITY. Meat has far more nutrition than plants and is used for a large brain. Now, your alien Triceratops may feed on nutritous alien plants so it may be available. But if the plants don't have enough, AND you want to become sentient, you would simply change him into a carnivore or omnivore and try again.
... what do you mean? i just listed a possibility in which a herbivore with an "inferior" diet can become sentient
No, I showed you that either it is NOT an "inferior diet' or it can NOT become sentient.

RagingBeaver wrote:
also look at an orangutan: compared to other animals it is a little "smarter" and its only carnivorous behavior is when it eats ants, so it achieved an intellectual superiority with a diet of low nutritious foods by slowing its metabolism... yet another way of achieving sentience with an inferior diet.
A little smarter is not sentience. Let me explain. On Earth, there are a few groups whose members are all a little smarter.
Corvids
Pscitacciformes
Maniraptorans
Cephalopods
Cetaceans
Primates
But in each of these, there are those who are A LOT smarter than the rest. You could say "Potential Sentients".
Corvus
Psittacine
Troodon
Octopod
Delphinid
Homo
Only one of these "Potential Sentients" really became sentient. You know which one. (Hopefully.) And maybe the ants are what makes it a little smarter anyway.

QFT

Just because it occurs on Earth doesn't mean it is an Earth pattern. Gravity occurs on Earth, and that is not an Earth exclusive pattern.
if this game only follows what happens to earth without some imagination related to "what if?" scenarios, i fear that it would become severely limited (and just to be clear i am not talking about magical what if? scenarios just completely different from what we see here on earth)
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:46 pm

RagingBeaver wrote:
Deathbite42 wrote:
RagingBeaver wrote:
Deathbite42 wrote:
Actually, the reason herbivores have had little success is not because of the lack of NEED for intelligence, but lack of ABILITY. Meat has far more nutrition than plants and is used for a large brain. Now, your alien Triceratops may feed on nutritous alien plants so it may be available. But if the plants don't have enough, AND you want to become sentient, you would simply change him into a carnivore or omnivore and try again.
... what do you mean? i just listed a possibility in which a herbivore with an "inferior" diet can become sentient
No, I showed you that either it is NOT an "inferior diet' or it can NOT become sentient.

RagingBeaver wrote:
also look at an orangutan: compared to other animals it is a little "smarter" and its only carnivorous behavior is when it eats ants, so it achieved an intellectual superiority with a diet of low nutritious foods by slowing its metabolism... yet another way of achieving sentience with an inferior diet.
A little smarter is not sentience. Let me explain. On Earth, there are a few groups whose members are all a little smarter.
Corvids
Pscitacciformes
Maniraptorans
Cephalopods
Cetaceans
Primates
But in each of these, there are those who are A LOT smarter than the rest. You could say "Potential Sentients".
Corvus
Psittacine
Troodon
Octopod
Delphinid
Homo
Only one of these "Potential Sentients" really became sentient. You know which one. (Hopefully.) And maybe the ants are what makes it a little smarter anyway.
a little smarter is all that you need in order to win the overall race for sentience (if you decide to participate in it); also to become sentient you need a "big brain", and to get it you don't need a highly nutritious diet... i get your point it surely helps to have an advantageous diet BUT IT ISN'T MANDATORY -again look at the orangutans-
No, I showed you a little smarter is a mile away from sentience. Did you even read my post? And a big brain needs a VERY highly nutritous diet. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/prehistoric_life/games/cavemen/challenge/index.html
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:20 am

be more open minded in evolution 2+2 don't always equal 4 because nature always finds other ways to deal with problems also think about the game making herbivores so that they are unable to achieve sentience would make a huge part of the game purposeless thus unplayable. then again look at insectivores they don't have a nutritious diet so they can't be sentient also most carnivores spend almost all their energy getting their meals so their diet is as much as useful as the one of your regular cow so they can't be sentient either on your diet=brain theory etc. etc. ... so now you are left with more than half rendered pointless and needless to say that that is a bad very thing. look at the orangutans again herbivores that with an "inferior" diet by your standards have become a little smarter, now you are playing the game as an orangutan : you are a little smarter than most species (but just a little) so that enables you to get even a little smarter after that you become smarter and the sentient (that's what i meant earlier by a little smarter is all you need). that being said i must ask to please stop this argument, because i will disagree with your assumption not matter what you say, and let's brainstorm on the original topic of this thread because that is a problem that needs solving.
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:21 am

GreatGranpapy wrote:
I feel like if organisms evolve eating plants, a new organism will evolve to eat the herbivores due to the over whelming amount of competition for food because the only consumers are eating from the same source.
adapting to that sort of situation would make herbivores exciting and challenging for a player
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:32 am

RagingBeaver wrote:
be more open minded in evolution 2+2 don't always equal 4 because nature always finds other ways to deal with problems also think about the game making herbivores so that they are unable to achieve sentience would make a huge part of the game purposeless thus unplayable. then again look at insectivores they don't have a nutritious diet so they can't be sentient also most carnivores spend almost all their energy getting their meals so their diet is as much as useful as the one of your regular cow so they can't be sentient either on your diet=brain theory etc. etc. ... so now you are left with more than half rendered pointless and needless to say that that is a bad very thing. look at the orangutans again herbivores that with an "inferior" diet by your standards have become a little smarter, now you are playing the game as an orangutan : you are a little smarter than most species (but just a little) so that enables you to get even a little smarter after that you become smarter and the sentient (that's what i meant earlier by a little smarter is all you need). that being said i must ask to please stop this argument, because i will disagree with your assumption not matter what you say, and let's brainstorm on the original topic of this thread because that is a problem that needs solving.
The game doesn't make herbivores unable to achieve sentience, because the game doesn't make plants non-nutritous. Insects ARE nutritous; in fact, a single fly has more protein than a steak. http://www.comby.org/insect/insecten.htm By nutrition, I don't mean OIL, I mean BRICKS. The form of a lion is not lost when it pounces on an antelope, only energy. Getting a little smarter doesn't mean you will again and again. It's that not doing so willl stop you. That being said I must ask you to stop this argument, as either way you will mindlessly disagree with me like a religous person and because I am not assuming. What you think is not neccesarily what is gonna happen anyway. It's what the person who by chance happens to be right thinks that will be in THRIVE. I may not be that person, but telling me to SHUT UP will not SHUT ME UP.
As to the actual discussion:
RagingBeaver wrote:
GreatGranpapy wrote:
I feel like if organisms evolve eating plants, a new organism will evolve to eat the herbivores due to the over whelming amount of competition for food because the only consumers are eating from the same source.
adapting to that sort of situation would make herbivores exciting and challenging for a player
QFT Yes, in fact it will be even funner and more challenging than that, because the AI would produce a predator to hunt the player, so you would need a defense.
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PostSubject: Re: Gaining Intelligence   Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:39 am

i am not mindlessly disagreeing with you like a zealot, i do so because i have reason and i think it is right and i did not try to shut you up i said that we should divert our attention to the actual topic on a completely unrelated note my "quote" option seems to be broken (i can quote but my message just won't be sent) ... i may have stumbled on a forum glich
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