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 The Kardashev scale

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PostSubject: The Kardashev scale   Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:46 pm

I was watching bigthink on youtube and stumbled across something known as the kardashev scale. It's categorization of alien races based off the energy under their control.
Type 0 - us, our energy comes from dead plants and animals, solar energy, etc. (well, we're closer to 0.8 as predicted by carl sagan)
Type 1 - Similar to Flash Gordon, a planetary civilization. A civilization which controls their entire home planet, they get energy from solar and fusion power
Type 2 - Similar to the federation of planets, a stellar civilization which controls the energy output of an entire star, they have completed a dyson sphere and are very powerful
Type 3 - Similar to The aliens on 2001 a space odyssey, a galactic civilization controls the energy output of an entire galaxy.
Type 4 (hypothetical btw) - Similar to Time Lords from Dr. Who (Love that show), nearly omnipotent. They can do anything on any scale.
My question is, will this scale be used in Thrive? Could we use it? I posted an idea stating that on the pause menu in the top left corner, the player could see their kardashev scale rating using carl sagan's idea of intermediates. Should we use this?


Last edited by Gryphogrox on Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Kardashev scale   Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:19 pm

I love the Kardashev scale, but it seems like too arbitary to use in Thrive.

What would be better is a seperate "stats" page, where you can see things such as the energy and mass you currently command as well as the intelligence of your species.

Carl Sagan's fractional scale, for those who don't know, treats every 0.1 increase as a power of ten in energy.

For example, a type 0 commands 1 megawatt of power. In Carl Sagan's scale, a type I commands 10 billion (10^10) megawatts (within an order of magnitude of total energy Earth recieves from the sun). A type II commands 10^20 megawatts (within an order of magnitude of the total energy the Sun emits), a type III commands 10^30 megawatts (within an order of magnitude of the total energy our galaxy emits) and so on.

Type IV, rather than omnipotent, refers to controlling 10^40 megawatts of energy. This is around the total amount of energy available in our universe.

Sagan's scale also allows for higher and lower types. Type V controls 10^50 megawatts of energy. Type -1 controls 10^-4 megawatts.

Robert A. Freitas Jr. wrote an excellent series of articles on the topic: 15.0 - Energy and Culture (the following four sections, 15.1-15.4)
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PostSubject: Re: The Kardashev scale   Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:33 pm

Gryphogrox wrote:
I was watching bigthink on youtube and stumbled across something known as the kardashev scale. It's categorization of alien races based off the energy under their control.
Type 0 - us, our energy comes from dead plants and animals, solar energy, etc. (well, we're closer to 1.8 as predicted by carl sagan)
Type 1 - Similar to Flash Gordon, a planetary civilization. A civilization which controls their entire home planet, they get energy from solar and fusion power
Type 2 - Similar to the federation of planets, a stellar civilization which controls the energy output of an entire star, they have completed a dyson sphere and are very powerful
Type 3 - Similar to The aliens on 2001 a space odyssey, a galactic civilization controls the energy output of an entire galaxy.
Type 4 (hypothetical btw) - Similar to Time Lords from Dr. Who (Love that show), nearly omnipotent. They can do anything on any scale.
My question is, will this scale be used in Thrive? Could we use it? I posted an idea stating that on the pause menu in the top left corner, the player could see their kardashev scale rating using carl sagan's idea of intermediates. Should we use this?

But what is the point of implementing this? It doesnt add or detract anything from the gameplay. I don't want to sound harsh, but this is just a method of classification of intelligent species. It wouldnt actually do anything for the gameplay or for the races that are within that category, and if you gained some sort of bonus for being within that Type, then thats pretty unrealistic.

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Last edited by NickTheNick on Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Kardashev scale   Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:14 pm

There's really no point in achievements, easter eggs, and a whole load of other aspects of games. Achievments only exist for bragging rights and extra challenge, why could this not be similar? It likely wouldn't be too hard to program, but I know nothing about coding. Though it's never a bad thing to set in-game goals and work towards them right?
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PostSubject: Re: The Kardashev scale   Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:37 pm

Gryphogrox wrote:
There's really no point in achievements, easter eggs, and a whole load of other aspects of games. Achievments only exist for bragging rights and extra challenge, why could this not be similar? It likely wouldn't be too hard to program, but I know nothing about coding. Though it's never a bad thing to set in-game goals and work towards them right?

Ahh I had a feeling you would take that path. I dont see the Kardashev classification as comparable to achievements, easter eggs, and a whole lot of other aspects of games with "really no point". I think this is just a case of unneccesary classification. no offense, but I realy dont care if Im Type 1, Type 3, or Type Belgium. these Types dont tell me anything important about the race that I woukdnt be able to detemine myself already. I dont like dividing all races into A, B, or C. There is no black and white between these races, its all just different shades of grey. By interacting and studying the different races I would be able to determine, "ok, these guys are food at this, but bad at this. They have a strong influence over this." instead of "ok, these guys are Type 2."

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PostSubject: Re: The Kardashev scale   Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:12 am

While I agree that generalization of that sort might be unnecessary for your own race it might come in useful when encountering other sentient species in space. In that case you'd probably not know their position on the scale at first, and I don't know if the game will have any spy/intelligence aspect to it at that stage but eventually it would be useful to know how powerful a certain civilization is just from a glance. If you're a type 1 and you encounter a type 3 than you probably want to be friends with them.
Additionally it might be problematic if you discover they're a type 3 by trying to blow up their ships and ending up on the wrong end of an antimatter cannon.

I don't think it's a mandatory function but personally I see usefulness in implementing a scale of some sort.
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PostSubject: Re: The Kardashev scale   Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:01 am

I personally would like some kind of generalisation about the technology level. But the system is a bit primitive. The game must include spys for it, then there would possible a way to show aswell some technology from different technologies. A pacifistic species could have developed advanced shield and engine technologies, but only simple or even no weapons, because they prefer to shield themself from the attack but don't want to fight the enemy.

Aswell a very advanced species could be possible able to mislead you. Remember the Nox from Stargate SG1.
They have shown as some kind of non developed indigenous people, but in reality they was extremly advanced and had a even cloaked city in the sky.
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PostSubject: Re: The Kardashev scale   Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:51 am

I agree with NickTheNick, it's really unnessecary, it doesn't tell me anything... =\ And as I know myself, I would even bother to watch, I like the simple way of playing.
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PostSubject: Re: The Kardashev scale   Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:42 pm

@Victuz: These generalizations assume a lot about the nation, which you won't know at first contact. You will instead learn specific things over your course of interacting with them, like aspects about their economy, their technology, their military, and other fields. It will give a much more in-depth perspective of the nation, so that you can personally gauge their power.

@Silver Sterling: Same as above.

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PostSubject: Re: The Kardashev scale   Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:49 pm

NickTheNick wrote:
@Victuz: These generalizations assume a lot about the nation, which you won't know at first contact. You will instead learn specific things over your course of interacting with them, like aspects about their economy, their technology, their military, and other fields. It will give a much more in-depth perspective of the nation, so that you can personally gauge their power.

@Silver Sterling: Same as above.
Yes, that actually sounds solid.
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