Medieval Guilds and Dual Government

In responce to a question by Alaska, I'm going to attempt to explain how guilds function.

The medieval definition of the word 'City' refers not to size but to privilage. If a village or town asked their lord for cityhood(For lack of a better word), they were asking for the ability to do several things, most importantly build city walls, raise a garrison, and have their own guilds.

Guilds function as a city government, seperate from the heirarchy of vassalage and the crown (Hence dual government). Guilds comprise of all the members of one craft in the city: Shoemakers, Blacksmiths, Coopers, Butchers, Carpenters, Masons, etc. (It is important to remember that those who produce and gather resources do not have guilds, farmers, miners, etc.) Each guild democratically elects one member to be guild master, and represent their guild on the city council. The city council would agree on large issues within the city, such as construction, law, and maintenance. They would also have control during epidemics or sieges.

The guilds themselves usually refer to themselves as a brotherhood. They set rules amungst themselves, setting maximum and minimum prices, controling acceptable methods of production (Most famous is likely the ban against bowyers [Bow-makers] working after dark, as the quality of the bow was drastically reduced and would cost lives on the battlefeild) and investigating abuses and fraud. Most important to remember is the one rule present in EVERY known guild throughout history: you may never hold more than one establishment. This prevents business, both the good and the bad of it, and created an economic equilibrium that meant painfully slow growth and NO loss for centuries.

The nobility had very little power over induvidual cities. Lords could not tax more than a set amount (One tenth usually) unless specifically told to by the crown (In which case all would go to the crown anyway.). Mainly the served to enforce laws made by the crown, usually through appointed sheriffs. Infringing on the power of the guilds was usually seen as taboo.

While officially the guilds did not include women, women often stood for their husbands and would often hold their husbands positions wholesale if something happened to the man.

Closely tied to the guild system is that of apprenticeship. At around 16 male children would either begin to learn their parents trade or leave "to make their fortune." 90% of the time this ended with apprenticeship. They would strike a deal with their master that they would work for them, learning the trade and refrain from leaving unless at their master's request, in return for education in the trade (And life skills), food, drink, shelter, and clothing. Almost all craftsmen would make heirs of their apprentices.
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WOW.... That's alot... Now to sort through it and find out how to implement it...

Well Guilds sound kind of like unions now, but with more power. Maybe "Guilds Council" could be an option of SC Governance? From your apprenticeship paragraph, it seems like one effect this could have would be to stabilize all specialist percentages, so that they maybe don't change at all.

I don't quite understand the economic impact that guilds had on the nation and their cities. You said "painfully slow growth", what does that mean exactly, to the city and the nation? Because if you can explain what effect it had, we may be able to attach it to the "Guilds Council" governance option. Also, what would happen if the capital selected to have guilds?

And i don't know what lords did, really. Were they just the owners of the land?

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Well Guilds sound kind of like unions now, but with more power. Maybe "Guilds Council" could be an option of SC Governance? From your apprenticeship paragraph, it seems like one effect this could have would be to stabilize all specialist percentages, so that they maybe don't change at all.

Sounds about right.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I don't quite understand the economic impact that guilds had on the nation and their cities. You said "painfully slow growth", what does that mean exactly, to the city and the nation? Because if you can explain what effect it had, we may be able to attach it to the "Guilds Council" governance option.

Economic growth of the city would be tiny. It would never grow particullarly prosperous, but it would never ever ever suffer from business abuses or go into a depression/economic downturn. Note that stock/bond market is incompatable with guilds.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Also, what would happen if the capital selected to have guilds?

Same thing that would happen with other SCs. Although you'd probaboly still have control of construction though.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

And i don't know what lords did, really. Were they just the owners of the land?

Pretty much. They ran the police force, collected taxes, and raised armies(Medieval armies were generally volunteer, with the only acceptions being personal retainers) as needed. They pretty much couldn't do anything unless the crown told them too. Note that you don't need them to be hereditary, they could function perfectly well with other selection methods.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Same thing that would happen with other SCs. Although you'd probaboly still have control of construction though.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

And i don't know what lords did, really. Were they just the owners of the land?

Pretty much. They ran the police force, collected taxes, and raised armies(Medieval armies were generally volunteer, with the only acceptions being personal retainers) as needed. They pretty much couldn't do anything unless the crown told them too. Note that you don't need them to be hereditary, they could function perfectly well with other selection methods.

So do we really need to have lord-equivalents sort of thing in the game? They seem to just command the military, which could be done by maybe a cross-age military unit called a general or something?

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

Same thing that would happen with other SCs. Although you'd probaboly still have control of construction though.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

And i don't know what lords did, really. Were they just the owners of the land?

Pretty much. They ran the police force, collected taxes, and raised armies(Medieval armies were generally volunteer, with the only acceptions being personal retainers) as needed. They pretty much couldn't do anything unless the crown told them too. Note that you don't need them to be hereditary, they could function perfectly well with other selection methods.

So do we really need to have lord-equivalents sort of thing in the game? They seem to just command the military, which could be done by maybe a cross-age military unit called a general or something?

Yup. As with most cultures they serve dual military/police duties.

So generals are just Military Specialists tagged as such?

Also, i recently thought about how guilds on other planets may not necessarily make the same rules (most importantly, they may not have the whole one-business deal). Therefore i think that something like this should be left to the Nation Editor. "Guilds Council" will simply mean that a council made up of the industries runs the city. Does that sit alright with you?

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Also, i recently thought about how guilds on other planets may not necessarily make the same rules (most importantly, they may not have the whole one-business deal).

I was just going to mention it.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Also, i recently thought about how guilds on other planets may not necessarily make the same rules (most importantly, they may not have the whole one-business deal). Therefore i think that something like this should be left to the Nation Editor. "Guilds Council" will simply mean that a council made up of the industries runs the city. Does that sit alright with you?

Technically yes, but that's sorta what makes guilds different from a city council, or a union. While they may not actually work that way, that's the defining feature gameplay-wise.

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Also, i recently thought about how guilds on other planets may not necessarily make the same rules (most importantly, they may not have the whole one-business deal). Therefore i think that something like this should be left to the Nation Editor. "Guilds Council" will simply mean that a council made up of the industries runs the city. Does that sit alright with you?

Technically yes, but that's sorta what makes guilds different from a city council, or a union. While they may not actually work that way, that's the defining feature gameplay-wise.

I still think that Guilds should not be so narrow an idea in the game. Just because it happened that way here, doesn't necessarily mean it will happen that way. Do you know anything about maybe an Eastern equivalent to Guilds? With that information we may be able to broaden the term better.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I still think that Guilds should not be so narrow an idea in the game. Just because it happened that way here, doesn't necessarily mean it will happen that way. Do you know anything about maybe an Eastern equivalent to Guilds? With that information we may be able to broaden the term better.

I don't know of an Eastern equivalent, but I think we could easily add an earlier research along the lines of an SC governance run by a city's industries. I don't think there's been anything official along those lines, but I've heard of it unofficially happening numerous times in smaller villages and towns, especially during the colonization of the new world. It's easily conceivable that that could be an option for alien races.

The defining factor of Guilds would be the "one establishment per person" rule, as that would drastically change gameplay. Does that sit alright with you?

P.S. I've been looking for a non-earth specific word for an Elizabethan Compromise style of state religion, so I can propose it in the research thread. Any ideas for a name?

Tenebrarum wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I still think that Guilds should not be so narrow an idea in the game. Just because it happened that way here, doesn't necessarily mean it will happen that way. Do you know anything about maybe an Eastern equivalent to Guilds? With that information we may be able to broaden the term better.

I don't know of an Eastern equivalent, but I think we could easily add an earlier research along the lines of an SC governance run by a city's industries. I don't think there's been anything official along those lines, but I've heard of it unofficially happening numerous times in smaller villages and towns, especially during the colonization of the new world. It's easily conceivable that that could be an option for alien races.

The defining factor of Guilds would be the "one establishment per person" rule, as that would drastically change gameplay. Does that sit alright with you?

P.S. I've been looking for a non-earth specific word for an Elizabethan Compromise style of state religion, so I can propose it in the research thread. Any ideas for a name?

I still feel that that sort of restriction is more fit for the Nation Editor.

Free Church. You have a state religion, but it is not strongly enforced.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I still feel that that sort of restriction is more fit for the Nation Editor.

Well, guilds can unlock that option then.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Free Church. You have a state religion, but it is not strongly enforced.

I dunno, free Church sounds deceptively like freedom of religion.