Complex Damage System

Recently, there was a discussion over the HUD how health should be shown. This has pointed to we haven't discussed and settled damage yet. I still remember the old concept fairly good, so I'l try to recreate it here.

Basically, each organism or TO would have it's own damage system. These damage systems would consist of parts of the object (such as limbs and organs for living things or FPs for Tech objects). If a player controls a TO or organism, a window with a wireframe is shown, displaying the current condition of each part of the controlled object.

Each part can have one of five statuses:

Nominal (0% - 10% damage): Part functions normally, no visible traces of damage
Light damage (10% - 25%): Part effectiveness slightly below 100%, rare traces of damage
Moderate damage (25% - 45%): Part effectiveness lowered, visible traces of damage
Heavy damage (45% - 70%): Part effectivenes highly reduces, serious traces of damage
Critical damage (70% - 99%): Part effectiveness almost zero, using it can damage the part even more
Destroyed (100%): Part either torn off or crippled, can't be regenerated or repaired, must be replaced

The player can change among several views in the window, or even select a simplified rotating 3d mesh of the controlled object.


Any suggestions and criticisms are welcome.

I'm completely happy with a complex damage system, as long as Bashi says it's feasible.

I'm wondering if this is a bit too complex- when exactly will you need to know that your left leg has moderate damage, and what (as an organism) are you supposed to do about it? As an organism that isn't sapient, all you can do is rest, so your recouperation for all injuries is the same, which begs the question: why differentiate between them?

if we decide that we do need a complex damage system, that's fine, but I'd rather not have it on my screen at all times. I'd say bring up the wireframe only if you click on your basic damage bar.

~sciocont wrote:

I'm wondering if this is a bit too complex- when exactly will you need to know that your left leg has moderate damage, and what (as an organism) are you supposed to do about it? As an organism that isn't sapient, all you can do is rest, so your recouperation for all injuries is the same, which begs the question: why differentiate between them?

if we decide that we do need a complex damage system, that's fine, but I'd rather not have it on my screen at all times. I'd say bring up the wireframe only if you click on your basic damage bar.

I was under the impression that's how it would work. You'd have an overview of how badly you are affected by your injuries (limb and organ damage would redden the bar more than a bruised back), and then clicking the bar would give you a more in-depth view of what's wrong and what you need to avoid doing. Say, if i had a bad leg, i wouldn't run to a known safe place to rest, whereas if i had a gash in my gut i might risk it.

~sciocont wrote:

when exactly will you need to know that your left leg has moderate damage, and what (as an organism) are you supposed to do about it? As an organism that isn't sapient, all you can do is rest, so your recouperation for all injuries is the same, which begs the question: why differentiate between them?

It's how it affects the organism that makes it special. A crippled leg makes you slow, so you are easy prey for predators. Brain concussion would make you "dizzy" by blurring the view, etc.
Also don't forget that it remains after you have Strategy mode, when you can do something different than resting.

~sciocont wrote:

if we decide that we do need a complex damage system, that's fine, but I'd rather not have it on my screen at all times. I'd say bring up the wireframe only if you click on your basic damage bar.

It's a good idea to have it togglable.

I agree. Click the basic indicator to see the complex damage system.

I like everything stated here so far.

How about, to save our computers, the more distant the organism, the more simplified the damage? It'd be just like the simiplification of their models through distance.

Quote :

How about, to save our computers, the more distant the organism, the more simplified the damage? It'd be just like the simiplification of their models through distance.

Well, the damage model itself can't be simplified by distance, but damage distribution can. Instead of exactly calculating the part hit, we can just take a rough calculation by position, and do the rest by random. I'm not exactly sure how much it would help though...



Now, the only problem I see is how to make the simple health indicator work properly. It should be predictable by players (we don't want it to jump around like crazy) and should also display accurate informations (nothing upsets more than dying with healthbar still being one half full).

Simply averaging the health doesn't work, and taking minimal values doesn't work too. Looks like each part will have it's own value and will be calculated indenpedently (man, that will be a long algorithm...) .

Commander Keen wrote:

(nothing upsets more than dying with healthbar still being one half full)

Health bar? Isn't it a colour?

To be honest, if we just have a colour, I'd be more happy to see a colour change from green to orange suddenly than full bar to quarter bar. Colours are vague enough to get away with it, in my opinion.

I like the click-to-bring-up-complex-damage system.

Currently, our healthbar isn't a bar, it's more like a light- it gets more intense the more hurt you are.

~sciocont wrote:

I like the click-to-bring-up-complex-damage system.

Currently, our healthbar isn't a bar, it's more like a light- it gets more intense the more hurt you are.

The more hurt you are? I thought it would be lighter the healthier you are...

US_of_Alaska wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

I like the click-to-bring-up-complex-damage system.

Currently, our healthbar isn't a bar, it's more like a light- it gets more intense the more hurt you are.

The more hurt you are? I thought it would be lighter the healthier you are...

Well, if we are having a red light, then more intense = more hurt.
If we are having a green light, then more intense - more healthy.

Which colour are we thinking of having?

The Uteen wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

I like the click-to-bring-up-complex-damage system.

Currently, our healthbar isn't a bar, it's more like a light- it gets more intense the more hurt you are.

The more hurt you are? I thought it would be lighter the healthier you are...

Well, if we are having a red light, then more intense = more hurt.
If we are having a green light, then more intense - more healthy.

Which colour are we thinking of having?

Red would be the logical choise. You won't be able to make the difference between the bright green and the transparent green easily. Where as red is quite flashy and will bring you're attetion to it, which is what we wan't since you're organism is hurt.

Albalrogue wrote:

The Uteen wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

I like the click-to-bring-up-complex-damage system.

Currently, our healthbar isn't a bar, it's more like a light- it gets more intense the more hurt you are.

The more hurt you are? I thought it would be lighter the healthier you are...

Well, if we are having a red light, then more intense = more hurt.
If we are having a green light, then more intense - more healthy.

Which colour are we thinking of having?

Red would be the logical choise. You won't be able to make the difference between the bright green and the transparent green easily. Where as red is quite flashy and will bring you're attetion to it, which is what we wan't since you're organism is hurt.

It will be red.

~sciocont wrote:

Albalrogue wrote:

The Uteen wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

I like the click-to-bring-up-complex-damage system.

Currently, our healthbar isn't a bar, it's more like a light- it gets more intense the more hurt you are.

The more hurt you are? I thought it would be lighter the healthier you are...

Well, if we are having a red light, then more intense = more hurt.
If we are having a green light, then more intense - more healthy.

Which colour are we thinking of having?

Red would be the logical choise. You won't be able to make the difference between the bright green and the transparent green easily. Where as red is quite flashy and will bring you're attetion to it, which is what we wan't since you're organism is hurt.

It will be red.

I'm thinking red, that turns into a sort of reddish-orange, fading into a bright orange in the middle. Although, that orange is just for a visual "glowing" sort of effect. And along with the color red sort of spilling out of the crystal/button/whatever thing, this should be enough to signify that it is glowing and that your organism needs something. Now.

And, of course, all colors will become increasingly high-contrast as your needs get higher and higher, to, much like in reality, become distracting at a point, and you will be automatically driven to, say, the refrigerator, and no matter how hard you try you won't be able to head back to the office chair to finish writing your documents before they're due. But I think someone said it's only if you had writers' block and just sat there doing nothing but letting your stomach rumble, for a few minutes, before this happens. I'm confused..

Goodness Belgium! I'm explaining this like I invented it. I guess I should stop about now? Yes? Okay, good.

But the problem with the color red being applied to all the instinct bars when they reach the highest (or lowest?) point, you won't be able to tell them apart. See, in reality you can easily tell hunger from fatigue. It'd be odd to confuse them.

Please, if you want to discuss color of instinct bars, continue it in the GUI thread.

Thank you Keen.

Now, back on topic.

It seems my simplifying system is out then? Okay, I get the issues. Still, how will we deal with, say, epic strat. mode battles with thousands of troops involved? Most games I know of either use very simple hit point systems in those cases, or have one soldier represent many.

Back off topic again, I want to make a thread about stealth/camo/AI responses/relationship with sensors/etc. Where would it go?

Tenebrarum wrote:

It seems my simplifying system is out then? Okay, I get the issues. Still, how will we deal with, say, epic strat. mode battles with thousands of troops involved? Most games I know of either use very simple hit point systems in those cases, or have one soldier represent many.

If the object is small/zoomed out enough, we could deal the damage randomly. Players aren't going to see it, and it's certainly CPU cheaper than raytracing everything.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Back off topic again, I want to make a thread about stealth/camo/AI responses/relationship with sensors/etc. Where would it go?

I think you should put it either into Org. mode or Strategy mode section.

Commander Keen wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

It seems my simplifying system is out then? Okay, I get the issues. Still, how will we deal with, say, epic strat. mode battles with thousands of troops involved? Most games I know of either use very simple hit point systems in those cases, or have one soldier represent many.

If the object is small/zoomed out enough, we could deal the damage randomly. Players aren't going to see it, and it's certainly CPU cheaper than raytracing everything.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Back off topic again, I want to make a thread about stealth/camo/AI responses/relationship with sensors/etc. Where would it go?

I think you should put it either into Org. mode or Strategy mode section.

I think we should restrict the camera in strat mode to a certain level of zoom. That would allow Keen's random system to work and simplify a lot depending on our LOD system.

~sciocont wrote:

I think we should restrict the camera in strat mode to a certain level of zoom. That would allow Keen's random system to work and simplify a lot depending on our LOD system.

:s

No thanks. How about we just stick to the random system in strat. mode?

~sciocont wrote:

I think we should restrict the camera in strat mode to a certain level of zoom. That would allow Keen's random system to work and simplify a lot depending on our LOD system.

That could work, but I found myself zooming nearly into third person third of my game time in most RTS games, watching the fight closely while still maintaining situational awareness.

Quote :

No thanks. How about we just stick to the random system in strat. mode?

I think Scio meant we would limit zooming in order to be able to apply random damage to every unit.



By the way, wait a day or two and I'll show you a game with complex non-random damage, lots of units and unlimited zooming.

Tenebrarum wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

I think we should restrict the camera in strat mode to a certain level of zoom. That would allow Keen's random system to work and simplify a lot depending on our LOD system.

:s

No thanks. How about we just stick to the random system in strat. mode?

That's what I was suggesting.

~sciocont wrote:

That's what I was suggesting.

You also suggested limited zoom.

Commander Keen wrote:

By the way, wait a day or two and I'll show you a game with complex non-random damage, lots of units and unlimited zooming.

I don't think limiting zoom will be needed.

Commander Keen wrote:

Commander Keen wrote:

By the way, wait a day or two and I'll show you a game with complex non-random damage, lots of units and unlimited zooming.

I don't think limiting zoom will be needed.

I think it may, considering how many polygons we could potentially have on screen, zooming in only to a point where lod simplifies things only slightly would be a very helpful thing.

For instance, lets say you have a creature- that creature is 2000 polys (not an unrealistic estimate, they pile up quickly)

Lets say you add clothing- another 500 polys. That's 2500 poly. Then add a weapon, maybe 150 polys.

This is your soldier- 2650 polygons.
If you have a group of 50 soldiers, that's 132,500 polygons. Now add in their environment (let's say 500,000 polygons, considering they could be in a city)
632,500 polys. not good for gameplay.

Now lets say we reduce complxity by just 25% 474375
polygons. still a lot, but under the half million mark. Drastic reductrion in number while still keeping 75% of the total complexity and allowing the game to run a lot faster.

If we stick trat mode zoom to a level where detail is reduced by 75%, we could save a lot of headaches with processing power.