Complex Damage System

~sciocont wrote:

longpost

Limit the detailing, not the zooming.

Tenebrarum wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

longpost

Limit the detailing, not the zooming.

Agree.

Also, if we want to continue this discussion further, we should do it in a different topic.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Limit the detailing, not the zooming.

I agree... but what if we enter in organism mode? We get close to many other organisms that have to be processed.
In my opinion in organism mode other organism should get random damage only (we'll se a lame soldier or an armless one :roll:, keeping a realistic effect).

For strategic mode I beleive the game should fallback to classical HP bars, so managing hundreds of troops would be feasible. Also LODs.

When you are at critter mode or controlling a single organism in other modes, complex damage should be used.

Djohaal wrote:

For strategic mode I beleive the game should fallback to classical HP bars, so managing hundreds of troops would be feasible. Also LODs.

When you are at critter mode or controlling a single organism in other modes, complex damage should be used.

This is how it will work, most likely.

~sciocont wrote:

Djohaal wrote:

For strategic mode I beleive the game should fallback to classical HP bars, so managing hundreds of troops would be feasible. Also LODs.

When you are at critter mode or controlling a single organism in other modes, complex damage should be used.

This is how it will work, most likely.

QFT

Djohaal wrote:

For strategic mode I beleive the game should fallback to classical HP bars, so managing hundreds of troops would be feasible. Also LODs.

Visaully yes, though (randomly dealt) complex damage should still be present. Try looking at the first Mechcommander game (free to download).

TOs will have physics determine their "health" when being made. Unless totally anhilated, most will retain complex damage in strat mode if large enough.

Tenebrarum wrote:

TOs will have physics determine their "health" when being made. Unless totally anhilated, most will retain complex damage in strat mode if large enough.

I think some techs should be tagged as not taking danage- these would be simple thngs like clothing (its damage would be integrated into that of the wearer), weaponry (handheld), comm devices, etc. anything you don't need to know the damage on should be set to not take damage.

I was wondering- how will buildings collapse? Will it be complex, realistic crumbling of the structure, or will they just explode into a flaming heap of rubble like in Spore?

~sciocont wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

TOs will have physics determine their "health" when being made. Unless totally anhilated, most will retain complex damage in strat mode if large enough.

I think some techs should be tagged as not taking danage- these would be simple thngs like clothing (its damage would be integrated into that of the wearer), weaponry (handheld), comm devices, etc. anything you don't need to know the damage on should be set to not take damage.

I think that could all come down to the size, could it not? Except for clothing...

US_of_Alaska wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

TOs will have physics determine their "health" when being made. Unless totally anhilated, most will retain complex damage in strat mode if large enough.

I think some techs should be tagged as not taking danage- these would be simple thngs like clothing (its damage would be integrated into that of the wearer), weaponry (handheld), comm devices, etc. anything you don't need to know the damage on should be set to not take damage.

I think that could all come down to the size, could it not? Except for clothing...

Not really, it depends on what someone is using it for.

Say someone is focused just on building a city with a lot of industry- they don't care about looks. They make a building that is just a rectangular prism- this building is huge, but extremely simple- only 6 polygons. Te player knows that the whole building can be replaced easily, and therefore doesn't need to go through a complex damage process.
In fact, I don't really see why TOs need cpmplex damage- even if your tank's tread is broken, it will go through the same repair process (in the game) as a tank that has a broken tureret- therefore, we don't need to know exactly what's wrong, we just need to know how wrong everything is.

~sciocont wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

TOs will have physics determine their "health" when being made. Unless totally anhilated, most will retain complex damage in strat mode if large enough.

I think some techs should be tagged as not taking danage- these would be simple thngs like clothing (its damage would be integrated into that of the wearer), weaponry (handheld), comm devices, etc. anything you don't need to know the damage on should be set to not take damage.

I think that could all come down to the size, could it not? Except for clothing...

Not really, it depends on what someone is using it for.

Say someone is focused just on building a city with a lot of industry- they don't care about looks. They make a building that is just a rectangular prism- this building is huge, but extremely simple- only 6 polygons. Te player knows that the whole building can be replaced easily, and therefore doesn't need to go through a complex damage process.
In fact, I don't really see why TOs need cpmplex damage- even if your tank's tread is broken, it will go through the same repair process (in the game) as a tank that has a broken tureret- therefore, we don't need to know exactly what's wrong, we just need to know how wrong everything is.

But it will affect how it works until it is repaired, and what and how much resources are needed to repair it. When your tank's tread is broken, it will move a lot less effectively than if it had a broken turret, and the resources needed to fix it differ.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

Tenebrarum wrote:

TOs will have physics determine their "health" when being made. Unless totally anhilated, most will retain complex damage in strat mode if large enough.

I think some techs should be tagged as not taking danage- these would be simple thngs like clothing (its damage would be integrated into that of the wearer), weaponry (handheld), comm devices, etc. anything you don't need to know the damage on should be set to not take damage.

I think that could all come down to the size, could it not? Except for clothing...

Not really, it depends on what someone is using it for.

Say someone is focused just on building a city with a lot of industry- they don't care about looks. They make a building that is just a rectangular prism- this building is huge, but extremely simple- only 6 polygons. Te player knows that the whole building can be replaced easily, and therefore doesn't need to go through a complex damage process.
In fact, I don't really see why TOs need cpmplex damage- even if your tank's tread is broken, it will go through the same repair process (in the game) as a tank that has a broken tureret- therefore, we don't need to know exactly what's wrong, we just need to know how wrong everything is.

But it will affect how it works until it is repaired, and what and how much resources are needed to repair it. When your tank's tread is broken, it will move a lot less effectively than if it had a broken turret, and the resources needed to fix it differ.

For TOs, could we use generalized complex damage? Damage could be dealt out randomly (or specifically, depending on what's giing the damage) to separate "systems" in a TO.
For instance out tank would have the systems
-mobility
-armor
-arms
-electronics
A certain weapon (say and EMP bomb) could be built to target specific typpes of systems. Systems in a TO woul be determined by the FPs in the TO.

~sciocont wrote:

-longpost is long-

I reckon the biggest problem of detailed damage at this stage is how efficiently it can be processed without overloading the computer. ATM I think we shouldn't focus on discussing damage on strategic mode, but perhaps do it for organism mode. Something I've been thinking after reading the design document linked on your sig for the creature editor is how to make it understand the damage of protected and unprotected body parts, and what would be the effects of them. (a side-subject would be how would organs work and etc. Perhaps I should put my medschool knowledge and create a new thread for organs?)

~sciocont wrote:

For TOs, could we use generalized complex damage? Damage could be dealt out randomly (or specifically, depending on what's giing the damage) to separate "systems" in a TO.
For instance out tank would have the systems
-mobility
-armor
-arms
-electronics
A certain weapon (say and EMP bomb) could be built to target specific typpes of systems. Systems in a TO woul be determined by the FPs in the TO.

That's a brilliant idea.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

For TOs, could we use generalized complex damage? Damage could be dealt out randomly (or specifically, depending on what's giing the damage) to separate "systems" in a TO.
For instance out tank would have the systems
-mobility
-armor
-arms
-electronics
A certain weapon (say and EMP bomb) could be built to target specific typpes of systems. Systems in a TO woul be determined by the FPs in the TO.

That's a brilliant idea.

Glad you like it- it really condenses the damage, but still gives more complex effects.

We do need complex damage in TOs, but I like your idea ~scio. It allows for a fair amount of realism. I assume that in org mode it would go to full complex though.

Tenebrarum wrote:

We do need complex damage in TOs, but I like your idea ~scio. It allows for a fair amount of realism. I assume that in org mode it would go to full complex though.

I'm quite certain that it would be full complex for organism mode.
Also, there are some great ideas here! You guys are so smart! I need a bit more smart myself... Gotta get a new Integrated Studies teacher, a bit more sleep, ... o.0
You are cool.
-Waap.

A bit late here, but better than never. Thanks for bringing this thread up, Waap.

~sciocont wrote:

For TOs, could we use generalized complex damage? Damage could be dealt out randomly (or specifically, depending on what's giing the damage) to separate "systems" in a TO.
For instance out tank would have the systems
-mobility
-armor
-arms
-electronics
A certain weapon (say and EMP bomb) could be built to target specific typpes of systems. Systems in a TO woul be determined by the FPs in the TO.

No offense Scio, but what would it help? I don't see any way how it could help the player (except simplifying the damage display to general areas like mobility or firepower), and computers are able to handle thousands of units with multiple damagable areas for some time already.

Also note that complex damage is only a factor for battles the player directly participates in. If he's on the other side of the world when the battle is fought, our only chance is to randomize.

Commander Keen wrote:

A bit late here, but better than never. Thanks for bringing this thread up, Waap.

~sciocont wrote:

For TOs, could we use generalized complex damage? Damage could be dealt out randomly (or specifically, depending on what's giing the damage) to separate "systems" in a TO.
For instance out tank would have the systems
-mobility
-armor
-arms
-electronics
A certain weapon (say and EMP bomb) could be built to target specific typpes of systems. Systems in a TO woul be determined by the FPs in the TO.

No offense Scio, but what would it help? I don't see any way how it could help the player (except simplifying the damage display to general areas like mobility or firepower), and computers are able to handle thousands of units with multiple damagable areas for some time already.

Also note that complex damage is only a factor for battles the player directly participates in. If he's on the other side of the world when the battle is fought, our only chance is to randomize.

Instead of tracking where damage is taken and applying it to parts in the TE, you implify it to if the tech is hit and what it's hit b, and the damage is dealt to those systems accordingly. Just a quick idea.

~sciocont wrote:

Instead of tracking where damage is taken and applying it to parts in the TE, you implify it to if the tech is hit and what it's hit b, and the damage is dealt to those systems accordingly. Just a quick idea.

Yes, that's how it works. But how does it affect gameplay? (except making intricate designs less useful due to less accurate simulation)

Commander Keen wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

Instead of tracking where damage is taken and applying it to parts in the TE, you implify it to if the tech is hit and what it's hit b, and the damage is dealt to those systems accordingly. Just a quick idea.

Yes, that's how it works. But how does it affect gameplay? (except making intricate designs less useful due to less accurate simulation)

It affects processing more than gameplay- a computer doesn't need to remember the "where" of damage. It neds to know only a few factors.
-the tech took damage
-the tech took damage type X in Y amount
-this reduces system A by B amount

It doesn't need to keep track of every FP or part of the tech and how much damage that has taken. Also, this means you could attack one system in the tech with a specialized weapon to destroy or disarm the tech. It's easier (and cheaper to short-circut an aircaft's computers than to asplode the aircraft.

Do you even read my posts?

Quote :

computers are able to handle thousands of units with multiple damagable areas for some time already

Want an example? Star Ruler, an indie game practically without any optimizations, frequently has more than five thousands units, each simulating complex damage. Possible because it only needs to rewrite some variables in addition to classical HP. Shots will have to raytrace with or without complex damage, and that's the most expensive part of simulating them.

Commander Keen wrote:

Do you even read my posts?

Quote :

computers are able to handle thousands of units with multiple damagable areas for some time already

Want an example? Star Ruler, an indie game practically without any optimizations, frequently has more than five thousands units, each simulating complex damage. Possible because it only needs to rewrite some variables in addition to classical HP. Shots will have to raytrace with or without complex damage, and that's the most expensive part of simulating them.

I've read it, and I understand your viewpoint. However, I'd like the programming side of things to be as simple as possible so we can reach more players and finish the game faster. We're simulating so much more than just the battle at one time, remember. I realize that shots have to raytrace to see if they contact the mesh of the tech, however, I'm more concerned, processing-wise, about the computer remembering specifically which tread on a tank got hit with a bullet. That seems like too much simulation to me- I think all you should really need to know is if the tank was hit and what it was hit with.