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Thrive Game Development

Development of the evolution game Thrive.
 
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» THIS FORUM IS NOW OBSOLETE
Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 Emptyby NickTheNick Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:26 pm

» To all the people who come here looking for thrive.
Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 Emptyby NickTheNick Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:22 pm

» Build Error Code::Blocks / CMake
Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 Emptyby crovea Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:28 pm

» Hello! I can translate in japanese
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» On Leave (Offline thread)
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» Devblog #14: A Brave New Forum
Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 Emptyby NickTheNick Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:49 am

» Application for Programmer
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» Re-Reapplication
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» Application (programming)
Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 Emptyby crovea Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:00 am

» Achieving Sapience
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» Application for Programmer/ Theorist
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» A new round of Forum Revamps!
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 Why Auto-Evo is Dead

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NickTheNick
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Redstar
toxiciron
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EScSi
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US_of_Alaska
~sciocont
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Tenebrarum
The Uteen
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Tenebrarum
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyMon Dec 20, 2010 8:04 pm

Pezzalis wrote:
If we are going with lamarckian or something similar to we will have to sieve over every factor wont we?
Yes.

Roll up your sleeves pal, we've got a lot of work to do.
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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyMon Dec 20, 2010 9:08 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
Pezzalis wrote:
If we are going with lamarckian or something similar to we will have to sieve over every factor wont we?
Yes.

Roll up your sleeves pal, we've got a lot of work to do.
That's why I don't like lamarckian and I prefer something different- Lamarckian is very limiting. I'm still saying we should use something different, because we'll have to constanly update the code as people get more creative, and there will be absolute mountains of code to begin with.
I'm saying
-fake darwinian
-artificial selection (crowdsourcing, somehow)
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Invader
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyTue Dec 21, 2010 1:45 am

Bashinerox wrote:
US_of_Alaska wrote:
Bashinerox wrote:
US_of_Alaska wrote:
Bashi, if you think you can come up with a working Lamarkian system, we would all be more than happy to have that in the game. It's better than no Auto-Evo.

That isn't the point. Regardless of methods used to alter data a basic algorithm can't just create envisioned creatures from scratch.
What if we start with a few base creatures? Could it evolve them?

It's quite possible, but then everything would look like modified versions of a bunch of base creatures

But if we create enough base creatures (a LOT of them), and we let them freely evolve enough before we see them, they will all be unique.

In other words, we could make a ton of base creatures and perhaps during a loading screen after beginning your save it would put them through a long period of evolution (but not too long) so that when we enter the game, they all look different.

I really hope that makes sense to you...
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Pezzalis
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyTue Dec 21, 2010 4:51 am

Sounding good so far... Im just wondering how these stock creatures would be phased into gameplay...
This got me a thinking.

*Steps back to Cellular stage*
Redstars really long microbe concept:
Spoiler:

Now. During cell stage you accumulate organelles and other cell parts and functions via assimilation. The basic final metabolism of your cell before you enter multicellular will determine your main means of acquiring energy.

For example... If you assimilate lots of Heat-Eaters (#13) you will end up a thermosyntetic organism.
Assimilate lots of Light-Eaters (#12) and you will become photosynthetic (Like a plant).
Assimilate lots of Eaters (#11) and you will end up with an organism utilizing a form of cellular respiration (Animals/Fungi/Anything that 'Eats')

Now whats has these got to do with stock creatures?
We should have different forms of stock organisms which apply to different means of attaining energy.

But these stock creatures will have to be different. They could be randomly selected or chosen due to other assimilated organelles (Ie a plant like stock-organism would be phased into evolution if the cells had lots of chloroplasts (#12), a cell wall (#16) and a vacuole (#15).)


Thats just my basic idea of how this concept could be phased into gameplay. As for evolution from there-on-in...
Well i Guess there could be limitations and expectations. IE a consuming (respiration) organism would need means of attaining food. The larger it gets, the more complicated systems it needs ie a mouth and a digestive track. Smaller consumers can diffuse materials or extracellularly digest food (Like fungi). Photosynthetic organisms which are stationary would need to live in light areas and have a large surface area of chloroplast-rich cells (Like leaves).

But yeah I guess we all need to get right down to the nitty-gritty of this.
P.S sorry if I got carried away
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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyTue Dec 21, 2010 11:22 am

Pezz, you should probably open up a thread about that if there isn't one already out there.
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specialk2121
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyTue Dec 21, 2010 11:55 am

I think evolution should work like this... If my organism does a lot of running away from predators, it will give me stronger legs to put on my creature in the editor. If i do a lot of jumping then i will get wings.

Same goes for the AI creatures. If they do a lot of digging the AI dhould be able to give them stonger arms, or claws.

We need AUto-Evo!
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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyTue Dec 21, 2010 12:08 pm

specialk2121 wrote:
I think evolution should work like this... If my organism does a lot of running away from predators, it will give me stronger legs to put on my creature in the editor. If i do a lot of jumping then i will get wings.

Same goes for the AI creatures. If they do a lot of digging the AI dhould be able to give them stonger arms, or claws.

We need AUto-Evo!
Please read threads. What you're suggesting is a Lamarckian system. You also should read the Organism Editor master thread (link in my signature) tio better understand how our game's organism editing works.
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The Uteen
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyTue Dec 21, 2010 3:47 pm

The Uteen wrote:
The base creatures could be from your own planet (the one currently being played on). They would be related, if loosely, to the creatures (or plants) you have seen before anyway. And if we did that, the results would be different for each planet. And more suited to the environment. And we wouldn't have to make them all.

I've been blanked here. Please read.

Can we do this? I'd really prefer this to pre-made & fixed stock creatures.
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specialk2121
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyTue Dec 21, 2010 3:48 pm

premade creatures wouldwork if they could still change somehow

(im not a programmer)
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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyTue Dec 21, 2010 3:58 pm

The Uteen wrote:
The Uteen wrote:
The base creatures could be from your own planet (the one currently being played on). They would be related, if loosely, to the creatures (or plants) you have seen before anyway. And if we did that, the results would be different for each planet. And more suited to the environment. And we wouldn't have to make them all.

I've been blanked here. Please read.

Can we do this? I'd really prefer this to pre-made & fixed stock creatures.
Right now I'm teetering towards everything beginning as a template org.
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Tenebrarum
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyTue Dec 21, 2010 4:33 pm

~sciocont wrote:
Right now I'm teetering towards everything beginning as a template org.
Good. I can see no other viable way (Sorry Uteen!) to start off planets.

Now, as I believe I said before, this is not something terrible. If we get auto-evo right, then evolution should change the creatures significantly enough for them to be seen as strikingly different. Again, all animals are descendants of worms, and share the same body plan.

Pezz, I like your idea. It will simplify the entire ordeal by seperating kingdoms before hand and not allowing mixing, and it provides a coherent connection to the microbial stage too. A+

Now, onto another topic: anyone who has studied evolution for a significant amount of time should know of the Competitive Exclusion Principle. To those unfamilier, it says, in a nutshell, that no two species can share a niche. Generally, a niche is defined by it's food source. While that isn't everything, we needn't complicate it yet. Let's get down a simplified version first. Back to niches. Niches are either said to be broad, (i.e. Having many different sources of food) or they are narrow. (e.i. Having only a few sources of food.) We'll return to these in a minute. The Competitive Exclusion Principle states that when a niche is shared, one or the other species must do one of the following: Migrate, Change, or Die.

What does this have to do with Auto-Evo? Well, while this does nothing to help the big issue, that of the actual process of change, it should help solve a few issues on the question of when evolution occurs. This can, for the time being, be said to be based on the aforementioned principle. If a species is found to share a niche, or more generally speaking, has a niche that overlaps with that of another species, than one must either Change (Evolve out of it's current niche, being best suited to those with broad niches), Migrate (If there is in fact a source of food near enough), or simply goes extinct.

Obviously this needs refining, but I thought it might be able to help.
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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyTue Dec 21, 2010 5:08 pm

I think bringing that in will be too complicated- each niche depends on the environment as a whole, so to monitor niches, we'd need to simulate everything in the environment at once.
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Tenebrarum
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyTue Dec 21, 2010 5:09 pm

~sciocont wrote:
I think bringing that in will be too complicated- each niche depends on the environment as a whole, so to monitor niches, we'd need to simulate everything in the environment at once.
As I said, in this case, niche = food source.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyTue Dec 21, 2010 5:14 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
I think bringing that in will be too complicated- each niche depends on the environment as a whole, so to monitor niches, we'd need to simulate everything in the environment at once.
As I said, in this case, niche = food source.
Alien environment = alien foods = alien niche.
We don't know what environments will be created, so we don't know how to define each niche. If you're suggesting we monitor food webs, that's another really complex thing, especially since we'd have to model pretty much the entire planet's food web to get an accurate niche placement.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyTue Dec 21, 2010 5:18 pm

~sciocont wrote:
Alien environment = alien foods = alien niche.
We don't know what environments will be created, so we don't know how to define each niche. If you're suggesting we monitor food webs, that's another really complex thing, especially since we'd have to model pretty much the entire planet's food web to get an accurate niche placement.
Hold on, what? We don't have to monitor food webs. We juust have to moniter food sources for species. They'd be bound to them, like a part. And don't tell me we're simmplifying it to the point that all herbavores can eat all plants, all carnivores can eat all animals, etc. That takes out the very most basic form of prey defense: being unhealthy/poisonous/unpleasant for the predator to eat.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyTue Dec 21, 2010 5:33 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
Alien environment = alien foods = alien niche.
We don't know what environments will be created, so we don't know how to define each niche. If you're suggesting we monitor food webs, that's another really complex thing, especially since we'd have to model pretty much the entire planet's food web to get an accurate niche placement.
Hold on, what? We don't have to monitor food webs. We juust have to moniter food sources for species. They'd be bound to them, like a part. And don't tell me we're simmplifying it to the point that all herbavores can eat all plants, all carnivores can eat all animals, etc. That takes out the very most basic form of prey defense: being unhealthy/poisonous/unpleasant for the predator to eat.
I'm not saying we simplify it that much, I'm just saying that food sources will be difficult to track for many different species.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyTue Dec 21, 2010 5:48 pm

~sciocont wrote:
I'm not saying we simplify it that much, I'm just saying that food sources will be difficult to track for many different species.
Then how do we code behaivior?

P.S. I thought that diet would be part of the OE. :s
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyTue Dec 21, 2010 7:40 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
I'm not saying we simplify it that much, I'm just saying that food sources will be difficult to track for many different species.
Then how do we code behaivior?

P.S. I thought that diet would be part of the OE. :s
Having diet be part of the OE would break the system. The creature would not survive in an environment that didn't support its natural diet, which would wreak hell on the PPG system. The OE, however, can tell you what a creature can eat, through organs, mouthparts, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyTue Dec 21, 2010 7:44 pm

~sciocont wrote:
Tenebrarum wrote:
~sciocont wrote:
I'm not saying we simplify it that much, I'm just saying that food sources will be difficult to track for many different species.
Then how do we code behaivior?

P.S. I thought that diet would be part of the OE. :s
Having diet be part of the OE would break the system. The creature would not survive in an environment that didn't support its natural diet, which would wreak hell on the PPG system. The OE, however, can tell you what a creature can eat, through organs, mouthparts, etc.
Problem solved. Niche still equals diet.

EDIT: Allow me to explain. I assume we'll have to record what organisms are in which biomes/areas in any situation for pollinating purposes, right? So, all you have to do is note diet vs. local edibles. All done. ^^
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Darkov
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyMon Jan 03, 2011 6:58 am

~sciocont wrote:
I think that we can combine some different approaches here to achieve the best results.
I'd like to do some crowdsourcing, and I think it can be easily done- all we need to do is release a basic Org editor and let people play with it. Then we choose "base creatures" from what they make.

From then we can run the system we choose (be it lamarckian, editing-based, or something like what I proposed) and orgs will evolve as a species.

Crowdsourcing would really help generate interest as well as bring in a lot of ideas for base organisms.

Thats the best way to see how auto - evo will work. I've tryed to make auto-evo simulations my self, on game maker, so they are very simple. But what i used was either darwenian evolution, or lamarckian. For the darwenian, i just made a random variable, that would randomzie between 1 and 100 and if its smaller then another variable, called mutation rate, then when the cell splits it would mutate. Now how will it mutate? Well my cells have a set of variables that defines em(x+y+u+i+o+p+..=cell), lets say these variables are 9 i numbers. So i randomize another variable to a random number from 1 to 9. Depending on what is the random number is, i change the specific varaible that changes my cell. Example:
Code:
create cell: {x+c+v+b+n+m+o+p+u=newcell}
split cell(newcell):{
  mutationrate=30
  willitmutate = random number from 1 to 100
  if willitmutate<=mutationrate then2
  {
    randomvar=random number from 1 to 9
    case randomvar==1 then x=x-10+(random number from 0 to 20)
    case randomvar==2 then c=c-10+(random number from 0 to 20)
    case randomvar==3 then c=c-10+(random number from 0 to 20)
    ........................
    case randomvar==9 then u=u-10+(random number from 0 to 20)
  }
  create cell: {x+c+v+b+n+m+o+p+u=newcell2}
}
Ofc the code is different, but this is the general idea.
Now for the lamarckian, i used global varaibles for each different species. So when a specific species starts to starve, a varible called "starving[SPECIECID]" would increase by 1. And i had many global varaibles like these. When the species reproduces, it reproduces into a new species according to these variables. It will not always improve the same way, because there might be many ways to beat starvation(in this example).

So you just need to change the variables of the creature, either by random mutations or in this harder lamarckian way.

But in either case there are problems for a massive game like Thrive. The random mutations will create a LOT of stupid creatures and it will take a long time to get a good creature out. The lamarckian is much harder to make realistic, because there will be many different situations, that the programmer must think of before they happen. And it will involve a lot of variables.

I have no real idea how this would work in Thrive, but i posted this, because maybe bashi will get an idea, after reading it.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptySun Jan 23, 2011 4:40 pm

I think you could actually use crowdsourcing for the entire evolutionary system. You could have a library with thousands (many to ensure diversity) of different human-designed organisms in it. Each organism would have a history log that represents environmental influences. Every generation, you'd pick creatures from the library that evolved in a similar environment, in semi-random fashion, and converge onto it.

Example: We drop a population of simple creatures into the world. We track the activities of a random organism and log the actions it does. There are a lot of events in the log for "entered water", "left water" and "attacked animal", indicating that it is a carnivorus amphibian. We search the database for organisms that left a similar log, and choose randomly amongst the candidates. (We can choose two seperate targets to simulate speciation.) Then we have the tricky part. The algorithm starts to measure the target species: the measurements aren't complex but there's a lot of them. It finds that the target has large, webbed feet and toothed jaws. The next generation grow up with larger teeth and feet.

edit: It could be applied to limbs and other parts, too, though it would be harder to implement. One option would be to have a table containing all the parts, with the position of the origin and target species marked on it like a grid. The position would be 'nudged' toward the target, and over time the organism develops more similar parts.

You'd need to design your creature data in a way designed for this kind of manipulation, which would be very difficult, but it'd be humanly possible to code unlike Darwinian methods and it avoids the problem of "loopholes". It'd also be easier to combine with a more intelligent (pattern-matched?) or randomised system if you have the time to code.

edit: I don't like to bump threads too much, so I'll add ideas on the concept to this post. I think it would be relatively easy to add an auto-correction system to keep it from evolving undistinctive or badly-designed creations. If a creature has a lot of "killed by predator" events in it's log, for example, the system will only converge on templates with high defensive stats. If the creature is hunted to extinction by the player, then it will be deleted from the database.

edit: An online database probably isn't possible, but a few hundred quality flora and fauna could be included with the game or as a seperate download. I don't think troll creations would corrupt the database that much, since it's just guiding the evolution along a general path. If the seed was a troll creation it would evolve or go extinct.


Last edited by EScSi on Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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~sciocont
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptySun Jan 23, 2011 10:34 pm

The main problem with crowdsourcing is that not everyone will be connected to the internet when they play. Also, trolls.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyMon Jan 24, 2011 5:47 pm

~sciocont wrote:
The main problem with crowdsourcing is that not everyone will be connected to the internet when they play. Also, trolls.

Perhaps a "hybrid": after initial release, people can choose to put their assets on display and some of the development team will package favorites for distribution into the next release or update. Obviously, assets added to the game automatically will have to be moderated.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyMon Jan 24, 2011 6:50 pm

Eeeeeeeeeh... I'm not so sure about this. It'd probably be far better in the long run to have Evolution as a system than an active plan within the community. Plus we still face most of the same issues of "When does it occur?" and "When does which trait pop up?" Basically all this does is take the simplest part, the random changes, out of it.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 EmptyMon Jan 24, 2011 6:56 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
Eeeeeeeeeh... I'm not so sure about this. It'd probably be far better in the long run to have Evolution as a system than an active plan within the community. Plus we still face most of the same issues of "When does it occur?" and "When does which trait pop up?" Basically all this does is take the simplest part, the random changes, out of it.
QFT
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Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Why Auto-Evo is Dead   Why Auto-Evo is Dead - Page 5 Empty

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