Decision Time

Tenebrarum wrote:

Actually most medieval culture spawns from Vassalage, so you can just use that. As in, serfdom comes from the seperation of the vassal and the peasantry, guilds come from the peasantry organizing themselves due to that, etc. Even Free Church comes from that seperation. We good?

I think Vassalage works better as an invention, with Feudalism (Or maybe some other term we can agree on) as the Branch.
Here is a list of proposed inventions for this branch, what do you think?

Vassalage, Fiefdom, Serfdom, Guilds, Civil Service, Chivalry

Tenebrarum wrote:

What would you put down as Minimum?

I think somewhere in the range of 20-30 hours minimum for a single play through would be good. You could easily stretch out the playtime indefinitely though.

Smothmoth wrote:

I think Vassalage works better as an invention, with Feudalism (Or maybe some other term we can agree on) as the Branch.
Here is a list of proposed inventions for this branch, what do you think?

Vassalage, Fiefdom, Serfdom, Guilds, Civil Service, Chivalry

Alright, let me see...
I'd put the source as either Vassalage or fiefdom. Both are similar unintentional seperations of things.

Chivalry doesn't really come from anywhere, so as an invention I suppose it's alright. Chivalry is one of the first codes of "appropriate" warfare, and really comes from a roundabout on the taboo against killing fellow Christians. As in "But what if I fight like this? Is that okay?" Warfare was incredibly rare, most recorded wars amounting to little more than political disputes with one or two battles if any.

Hmmm... Could you add Retainership? There's no real word for it but it is a very unique and game changing quirk of medieval society. Definate sprouting from Vassalage with it. Tell me if you need it exlained.

Guilds and civil service go hand in hand, as the guild-run city councils started them. Many towns sought city-ship (Which was at the time a legal status and not one of size) specifically to get the rights to have publicly funded civil services.

Smothmoth wrote:

I think somewhere in the range of 20-30 hours minimum for a single play through would be good. You could easily stretch out the playtime indefinitely though.

Up it to 50 and I think we're good. In one game, well over 100 hours of content though.

Tenebrarum wrote:

Alright, let me see...
I'd put the source as either Vassalage or fiefdom. Both are similar unintentional seperations of things.

Chivalry doesn't really come from anywhere, so as an invention I suppose it's alright. Chivalry is one of the first codes of "appropriate" warfare, and really comes from a roundabout on the taboo against killing fellow Christians. As in "But what if I fight like this? Is that okay?" Warfare was incredibly rare, most recorded wars amounting to little more than political disputes with one or two battles if any.

Hmmm... Could you add Retainership? There's no real word for it but it is a very unique and game changing quirk of medieval society. Definate sprouting from Vassalage with it. Tell me if you need it exlained.

Guilds and civil service go hand in hand, as the guild-run city councils started them. Many towns sought city-ship (Which was at the time a legal status and not one of size) specifically to get the rights to have publicly funded civil services.

Okay, lets combine Vassalage and Fiefdom into one invention, call it Vassalage. I don't really see how Retainership would have any real impact in game, unless I'm getting the definition mixed up.

Guilds and Civil Service were in the Research list as two separate entities, here were their effects:

Civil Service - Can use resources to encourage population into certain specialists
Guilds - “Single Establishments”option of Economic Freedoms under the Domestic Policy in the Government Section of the Nation Editor

Tenebrarum wrote:

Up it to 50 and I think we're good. In one game, well over 100 hours of content though.

I could see 50 hours as the average, but the minimum? I don't know...

Rex, you know some people have busy life. You can't force them to be stuck with one save forever, that will just drive them out. If someone wants to rocket through the game, then let him. I think 12 hours before sapience + another 12 in society is enough. Keep in mind that this is pure gameplay time, in real time, it may take less dedicated people a week or more to finish. That's hard to reach minimum, I think we can count these people would take 2 weeks per race, that's 2 saves per month. Just enough not to bore them, but allow them to get connection to the race.

Also, as Smoth said, if you want, you can stretch any gameplay phase indefinitely, that's how our game mechanics work. People with lots of free time will too get what they want.

Smothmoth wrote:

Okay, lets combine Vassalage and Fiefdom into one invention, call it Vassalage. I don't really see how Retainership would have any real impact in game, unless I'm getting the definition mixed up.

It would have more effect on Org Mode than anything else. Retainers being close personal servants of induviduals with very intimate relationships. Almost exclusively hired from friends, so the intimacy is there first. Goes so far in the culture as to remove seperation. Capacity was occasionally measured in "Knights," but meaning "A knight and all his retainers."

Smothmoth wrote:

Guilds and Civil Service were in the Research list as two separate entities, here were their effects:

Civil Service - Can use resources to encourage population into certain specialists
Guilds - “Single Establishments”option of Economic Freedoms under the Domestic Policy in the Government Section of the Nation Editor.

More complicated then that, but two seperate is fine. You can have one without the other, it's just not as likely.

Smothmoth wrote:

I could see 50 hours as the average, but the minimum? I don't know...

Commander Keen wrote:

Rex, you know some people have busy life. You can't force them to be stuck with one save forever, that will just drive them out. If someone wants to rocket through the game, then let him. I think 12 hours before sapience + another 12 in society is enough. Keep in mind that this is pure gameplay time, in real time, it may take less dedicated people a week or more to finish. That's hard to reach minimum, I think we can count these people would take 2 weeks per race, that's 2 saves per month. Just enough not to bore them, but allow them to get connection to the race.

Also, as Smoth said, if you want, you can stretch any gameplay phase indefinitely, that's how our game mechanics work. People with lots of free time will too get what they want.

Exactly, the game needs to be flexible to fix with many different play styles.

Tenebrarum wrote:

It would have more effect on Org Mode than anything else. Retainers being close personal servants of induviduals with very intimate relationships. Almost exclusively hired from friends, so the intimacy is there first. Goes so far in the culture as to remove seperation. Capacity was occasionally measured in "Knights," but meaning "A knight and all his retainers."

Yeah, I got the definition right then. I don't know if we should go this in-depth with Org-Mode in the later stages, but if we do it would be a nice thing to have. I don't think it should be an invention though, there isn't much of an impact game wise.

Some people will play in Org Mode a lot more than strategy, Smoth. And we have to cater to them just as much.

So, today i knuckled down and did some work. And by done some work i mean made A HYBRID! This baby strives to get the best of both worlds. I got all the researches on the list and made them either main researches or inventions, i also added a few researches and one or two inventions.

Here it is.

I don't want comments here, other than yes i like the hybrid and can now see it working. Unless you don't like it. You can say that too, i guess.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

So, today i knuckled down and did some work. And by done some work i mean made A HYBRID! This baby strives to get the best of both worlds. I got all the researches on the list and made them either main researches or inventions, i also added a few researches and one or two inventions.

Here it is.

I don't want comments here, other than yes i like the hybrid and can now see it working. Unless you don't like it. You can say that too, i guess.

Yes, this is basically what I've been proposing, and I think it will work very well.

Should we discuss this in the old Research List thread, or are you going to make a new one?

Smothmoth wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

So, today i knuckled down and did some work. And by done some work i mean made A HYBRID! This baby strives to get the best of both worlds. I got all the researches on the list and made them either main researches or inventions, i also added a few researches and one or two inventions.

Here it is.

I don't want comments here, other than yes i like the hybrid and can now see it working. Unless you don't like it. You can say that too, i guess.

Yes, this is basically what I've been proposing, and I think it will work very well.

Should we discuss this in the old Research List thread, or are you going to make a new one?

I might make a new one for the list as well as their links, and another new one for the effects of each research and their subsequent inventions.