Research Web

This is the thread in which we will discuss the researches and inventions we will include in game and how they link to one another.

CURRENT WEB

Discuss.

Oral tradition? I hope we dont speak as in..Oral well yeah?

And they should be perfectely capable of not having a religion at all. This was wrong thread i didn`t fin the other one.

AIs-null wrote:

Oral tradition? I hope we dont speak as in..Oral well yeah?

And they should be perfectely capable of not having a religion at all. This was wrong thread i didn`t fin the other one.

Okay, dude. Mysticism will happen. There is no way that they can know everything about their world as a primitive race, and if they don't imagine answers, they are not sapient. They may not have strict religions, but there will be mythology and folklore. This argument has been had before.

Religion and answers about the world is not coherent. They simply could say that "Hey idk lets move on!"

Religion
It can just be considered a set of beliefs. Every sapient being is going to have religion at some point in its evolution, usually with more at the earlier stages.

Also, if i remember correctly, in the last tech document religion was required for writing. In real life, writing is almost always invented as a record keeping device for economic transactions, then used for other things later.

~sciocont wrote:

Religion
It can just be considered a set of beliefs. Every sapient being is going to have religion at some point in its evolution, usually with more at the earlier stages.

Also, if i remember correctly, in the last tech document religion was required for writing. In real life, writing is almost always invented as a record keeping device for economic transactions, then used for other things later.

Well this web assumes that the only required knowledge is of social tradition. Is that a problem?

US_of_Alaska wrote:

~sciocont wrote:

Religion
It can just be considered a set of beliefs. Every sapient being is going to have religion at some point in its evolution, usually with more at the earlier stages.

Also, if i remember correctly, in the last tech document religion was required for writing. In real life, writing is almost always invented as a record keeping device for economic transactions, then used for other things later.

Well this web assumes that the only required knowledge is of social tradition. Is that a problem?

No, that seems good.

I actually really like the simplistic links. It does exactly what Smoth thought it would, allows for real specialisation of nations. I'll start fixing the research list into a research and invention list with the new additions and changes right now.

I question whether gunpowder should require invention. The techs from it certainly should require it, but not gunpowder. However, I am unable to think of an alternative, so I guess unless someone sees a better alternative we should leave it.

What defines biological warfare? Because last I recall throwing corpses at enemy cities was a somewhat common tactic in Europe well before scientific method came around, and is often labled as a precoursor to biological warfare.

Should rocketry require computers? Or at least electricity? Likewise with steampower requiring thermodynamics (specifically combustion).

Poisson wrote:

I question whether gunpowder should require invention. The techs from it certainly should require it, but not gunpowder. However, I am unable to think of an alternative, so I guess unless someone sees a better alternative we should leave it.

What defines biological warfare? Because last I recall throwing corpses at enemy cities was a somewhat common tactic in Europe well before scientific method came around, and is often labled as a precoursor to biological warfare.

Should rocketry require computers? Or at least electricity? Likewise with steampower requiring thermodynamics (specifically combustion).

Invention can be discovered fairly early if construction is beelined, which is why i was okay with it being a prerequisite for gunpowder. (china was pretty good at building Belgium, then BAM gunpowder)

In terms of the game, biological warfare is the ability to contain and breed diseases and release them in a way that harms your enemies.

Steampower predates combustion, i'm fairly certain.

I've finally gotten some time to look through, and it definitely is working like I thought it would. There are some things that I think should be moved around, some things renamed, and of course some added.

1. I think we should add Two researches to the beginning:
Solicitation-
Communication
Cooperation
Communities
Language (MD)
Tribalism (MD)

Interaction-
Simple Tools
Improvised Shelter
Fire
Construction (MD)
Gathering (MD)

2. Rename social tradition to Tribalism, I think that works better.

3. Add Alchemy somewhere, and have Gunpowder branch off from that. Gunpowder was discovered by Chinese alchemists by complete random chance.

4. Rename Philosophy to Theology, add the Research Philosophy somewhere a little later with the following:
Philosophy -
Ethics
Logic
Aesthetics
Epistemology
Literature (MD)

5. Rename Quantum Physics to Atomic Physics, add Quantum physics sometime after Advanced Physics.

That’s all I can think of at the moment.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Poisson wrote:

I question whether gunpowder should require invention. The techs from it certainly should require it, but not gunpowder. However, I am unable to think of an alternative, so I guess unless someone sees a better alternative we should leave it.

What defines biological warfare? Because last I recall throwing corpses at enemy cities was a somewhat common tactic in Europe well before scientific method came around, and is often labled as a precoursor to biological warfare.

Should rocketry require computers? Or at least electricity? Likewise with steampower requiring thermodynamics (specifically combustion).

Invention can be discovered fairly early if construction is beelined, which is why i was okay with it being a prerequisite for gunpowder. (china was pretty good at building Belgium, then BAM gunpowder)

In terms of the game, biological warfare is the ability to contain and breed diseases and release them in a way that harms your enemies.

Steampower predates combustion, i'm fairly certain.

Alright, I didn't know if China was really all that good at invention at the time. (Thinking about it now, they were.)

Got it.

Combustion being more like a combustion engine, not how to make a really hot fire to make steam?

But am I correct with Rocketry requiring Computers and Computers requiring Electricity? Or am I mixing up what Rocketry is?

Smothmoth wrote:

I've finally gotten some time to look through, and it definitely is working like I thought it would. There are some things that I think should be moved around, some things renamed, and of course some added.

1. I think we should add Two researches to the beginning:
Solicitation-
Communication
Cooperation
Communities
Language (MD)
Tribalism (MD)

Interaction-
Simple Tools
Improvised Shelter
Fire
Construction (MD)
Gathering (MD)

2. Rename social tradition to Tribalism, I think that works better.

3. Add Alchemy somewhere, and have Gunpowder branch off from that. Gunpowder was discovered by Chinese alchemists by complete random chance.

4. Rename Philosophy to Theology, add the Research Philosophy somewhere a little later with the following:
Philosophy -
Ethics
Logic
Aesthetics
Epistemology
Literature (MD)

5. Rename Quantum Physics to Atomic Physics, add Quantum physics sometime after Advanced Physics.

That’s all I can think of at the moment.

i like those

Quote :

Solicitation-
Communication
Cooperation
Communities
Language (MD)
Tribalism (MD)

Solicitation as in lawyers? Do you mean Socialisation?

All of these researches, with the exception of tribalism under certain definitions, are more like prerequisites for Strat Mode. I don't see why you would need researches before Strat Mode.

Quote :

Interaction-
Simple Tools
Improvised Shelter
Fire
Construction (MD)
Gathering (MD)

Interaction sounds more like a social thing than a crafting thing. But, i like this research more than solicitation. I can agree with simple tools, if anyone can think up an effect for it. I agree that fire fits in this category, and i think you mean Crafting and Collection where you say Construction and Gathering (although i am liking the word gathering more than collection)?

And Social Tradition is not Tribalism. Social Tradition is where the people of your nation finally decide to consciously educate their children in their ways of and views on life.

Chemistry = Alchemy. And Chemistry does have to come from Invention, it only makes sense.

Tell me what the inventions under philosophy would do. You seem to offer a lot of researches and inventions and not a lot of effects. But, i'm happy to change theology to the research and philosophy to an invention, then move weather lore to some other place.

Will rename quantum physics to atomic physics, and i think that the new quantum physics can contain the string theory invention, and maybe fusion too?

Poisson wrote:

Alright, I didn't know if China was really all that good at invention at the time. (Thinking about it now, they were.)

Got it.

Combustion being more like a combustion engine, not how to make a really hot fire to make steam?

But am I correct with Rocketry requiring Computers and Computers requiring Electricity? Or am I mixing up what Rocketry is?

That was my thinking.

Combustion like Combustion Engine, yes.

Computers requires electricity, but rocketry does not require computers.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Solicitation as in lawyers? Do you mean Socialisation?

Yes, the spell check goofed up I guess. I'm a horrific speller, I tend to rely on spell check far to often.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

All of these researches, with the exception of tribalism under certain definitions, are more like prerequisites for Strat Mode. I don't see why you would need researches before Strat Mode.

I say we unlock research right after sentience is attained. The two I proposed would fit in if we go that route.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

And Social Tradition is not Tribalism. Social Tradition is where the people of your nation finally decide to consciously educate their children in their ways of and views on life.

I just think that the inventions listed would fit better under Tribalism.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Chemistry = Alchemy. And Chemistry does have to come from Invention, it only makes sense.

Chemistry is not the same thing as Alchemy. Alchemy was a mystic art, and involved randomly combining things in an attempt to create elixirs of life and potions that turned water into gold. Some useful things were created out of this, including gunpowder and some herbal medicines. Chemistry is a field of science, and came around about a thousand years later.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Tell me what the inventions under philosophy would do. You seem to offer a lot of researches and inventions and not a lot of effects. But, i'm happy to change theology to the research and philosophy to an invention, then move weather lore to some other place.

I always think of the the effects, I just don't list them because it would clutter things up. The Philosophy inventions would mostly effect behavior and want for reform, but would also have some other effects.

Ethics - Introduces ethical thinking, want for moral reform
Logic - Introduces critical thinking, want for education reform
Aesthetics - Adds decorations to the TE
Epistemology - Introduces early research building of some sort
Literature (MD) - Unlocks research Literature

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Will rename quantum physics to atomic physics, and i think that the new quantum physics can contain the string theory invention, and maybe fusion too?

I would just call the Invention "Theory of Everything" and leave it at that, all our current "Theories of Everything" are pretty flawed.
Nuclear Fusion could fit under atomic physics, and Controlled Fusion under Quantum Physics could work.

Smothmoth wrote:

I say we unlock research right after sentience is attained. The two I proposed would fit in if we go that route.

Okay, as long as research can be conducted in Org Mode.

Smothmoth wrote:

I just think that the inventions listed would fit better under Tribalism.

Why? There is no reason to think that you need to have a tribal governing system to have a story-telling tradition, or to have rituals.

Smothmoth wrote:

Chemistry is not the same thing as Alchemy. Alchemy was a mystic art, and involved randomly combining things in an attempt to create elixirs of life and potions that turned water into gold. Some useful things were created out of this, including gunpowder and some herbal medicines. Chemistry is a field of science, and came around about a thousand years later.

I've got it! Alchemy can be an invention of some early research branch (maybe mysticism, as you say) then gunpowder can require Invention UNLESS the invention alchemy has been discovered. Sort of like an override trigger.

[quote="Smothmoth"]I always think of the the effects, I just don't list them because it would clutter things up. The Philosophy inventions would mostly effect behavior and want for reform, but would also have some other effects.

Smothmoth wrote:

Ethics - Introduces ethical thinking, want for moral reform
Logic - Introduces critical thinking, want for education reform
Aesthetics - Adds decorations to the TE
Epistemology - Introduces early research building of some sort
Literature (MD) - Unlocks research Literature

Ethics - I think ethics will always be present in a nation. Even the old testament deals with the ethics of stealing and honesty.
Logic - Again, logic as a research seems fairly impractical. Perhaps "Rational Religion" would be better. By this i mean that people start to understand that their god made the world to an understandable set of rules.
Aesthetics - Fits better where it already is in Early Entertainment
Epistemology - As we are dealing with player-made TOs, this is too narrow a definition. Having an epistemology academy TO is simply too specific.
Literature - You did read the web i did, right? Literature is an early invention, under Record Keeping.

Smothmoth wrote:

I would just call the Invention "Theory of Everything" and leave it at that, all our current "Theories of Everything" are pretty flawed.
Nuclear Fusion could fit under atomic physics, and Controlled Fusion under Quantum Physics could work.

Good point, will make sure to use this terminology when it comes up. And giving fusion away at atomic theory seems like a bit of a freebie.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

I've got it! Alchemy can be an invention of some early research branch (maybe mysticism, as you say) then gunpowder can require Invention UNLESS the invention alchemy has been discovered. Sort of like an override trigger.

That could work very well, I would have Alchemy be that early Research though. It really was the closest thing to science in that time period, and many inventions did come out of it. I would have to look them up, but I know there a quite a few.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Ethics - I think ethics will always be present in a nation. Even the old testament deals with the ethics of stealing and honesty.

Early on, not at all. Also, the philosophers of ancient Greece predate the old testament by a few hundred years.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Logic - Again, logic as a research seems fairly impractical. Perhaps "Rational Religion" would be better. By this i mean that people start to understand that their god made the world to an understandable set of rules.

This invention would represent the works of Philosophers inspiring critical thinking in the general populace. This would lead to an increase in Research Point generation. How does that sound?

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Aesthetics - Fits better where it already is in Early Entertainment

Aesthetics isn't entertainment, it is the study of the nature and appreciation of beauty. It also is described as a classic branch of Philosophy.

Also, Early Entertainment needs some major modifications. It is really just a bunch of unrelated things. I would move Written Music and Drama to literature
(See Below), and merge the rest with Spectator Sports. Call it Athletics and that is covered.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Epistemology - As we are dealing with player-made TOs, this is too narrow a definition. Having an epistemology academy TO is simply too specific.

We can't just let people build whatever they want, whenever they want.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Literature - You did read the web i did, right? Literature is an early invention, under Record Keeping.

Literature is pretty major, I think it would work better as a Research with the following Inventions:
Drama
Poetry
Fiction
Written Music

US_of_Alaska wrote:

And giving fusion away at atomic theory seems like a bit of a freebie.

The first Fission Reaction was accomplished in 1942, as part of the Manhattan Project. The first Fusion Reaction was accomplished in 1951, as part of Operation Greenhouse. That was an uncontrolled reaction however, aka a Thermonuclear bomb. Controlled reactions are much harder, we still can't really do it. Given the time frame, I think its best to have Uncontrolled Fusion as part of Atomic Theory. Just make sure it is impossible to invent fusion before fission.

Smothmoth wrote:

That could work very well, I would have Alchemy be that early Research though. It really was the closest thing to science in that time period, and many inventions did come out of it. I would have to look them up, but I know there a quite a few.

My problem is if there are a few inventions that are relevant to the game.

Smothmoth wrote:

Early on, not at all. Also, the philosophers of ancient Greece predate the old testament by a few hundred years.

But Philosophy is not early. You have to already have mysticism, which means you have to already have socialisation.

Smothmoth wrote:

This invention would represent the works of Philosophers inspiring critical thinking in the general populace. This would lead to an increase in Research Point generation. How does that sound?

That sounds good, but i'd still like more for it. i'll include it, but just keep it in the back of that brain of yours.

Smothmoth wrote:

Aesthetics isn't entertainment, it is the study of the nature and appreciation of beauty. It also is described as a classic branch of Philosophy.

Alright, and thinking of it now the Greeks did stumble upon philosophy and aesthetics around the same time.

Smothmoth wrote:

We can't just let people build whatever they want, whenever they want.

Yes we can. That's kind of the point of the game. The restrictions research level puts on them is the size, FPs and the tags that can be applied. You can build anything, but unless it can be tagged as a TO it is useless in the game. Make sense?

Smothmoth wrote:

Literature is pretty major, I think it would work better as a Research with the following Inventions:
Drama
Poetry
Fiction
Written Music

Okay, sounds good. I'll play around with this.

Smothmoth wrote:

The first Fission Reaction was accomplished in 1942, as part of the Manhattan Project. The first Fusion Reaction was accomplished in 1951, as part of Operation Greenhouse. That was an uncontrolled reaction however, aka a Thermonuclear bomb. Controlled reactions are much harder, we still can't really do it. Given the time frame, I think its best to have Uncontrolled Fusion as part of Atomic Theory. Just make sure it is impossible to invent fusion before fission.

Alright, so Fusion and Controlled Fusion are very different things? Can work with that.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

But Philosophy is not early. You have to already have mysticism, which means you have to already have socialisation.

Philosophy is pretty early In my opinion, but we can drop Ethics if you don't feel it fits.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Yes we can. That's kind of the point of the game. The restrictions research level puts on them is the size, FPs and the tags that can be applied. You can build anything, but unless it can be tagged as a TO it is useless in the game. Make sense?

With those limits, it makes sense. We could have Epistemology unlock education related FPs/tags , would that work?

I love the new format. Just one question: where are we keeping track of triggers?

Tenebrarum wrote:

I love the new format. Just one question: where are we keeping track of triggers?

https://thrivegame.canadaboard.net/t492-researches-and-inventions-effects

I guess if you beeline philosophy or have it triggered, you will have it early. But i was thinking early like early egypt early. Ethics is evolutionary, i believe. When we gained sapience we gained emotions and therefore ethics. Make sense?

I guess that epistemology could unlock a lectern FP or something, which can improve research output according to the amount of specialists, which can be added to a place of learning or record keeping TO. Will update.

http://www.mediafire.com/?klb1lq4s38k8e9x
Working with word was getting too difficult, i know this is a little hard to follow but it's the best i could do for free. Will update OP as well as the list of effects and triggers soon.

Where are Modern firearms?


The tree is pretty easy to read now, it would be nice if it stays that way. Good job, Alaska.

Commander Keen wrote:

Where are Modern firearms?


The tree is pretty easy to read now, it would be nice if it stays that way. Good job, Alaska.

I replaced all occurrences of the word Modern with the word Advanced. I felt that it would be less terracentric that way.

I thought there was already was a branch called Advanced firearms, wasn't there?

Wait, that was an invention. Okay than.


Still, the word advanced has a much broader meaning. To keep with the firearm theme, it could be anywhere from flintlock up.