Extended Research List

Here i have the long long list of researches that i've been working on. This list is derived from a modmod to Civilization IV, which is probably better than basing it off of vanilla civ because it's not as obviously copied (and modmods are third-party, no copyright anyways). Also, it is HUGE! Which i think fits with our game a lot better. It'll make for a lot more options and possibilities as far as in-game civilisations go.

Currently i am up to Researches discovered in the modern era.
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Constructive criticism is welcome, and some things i'm still not sure about. Most have question marks, but some are just dodgy.

Wow, pretty massive and that's just to the compass. However, many things seem just strange, mainly in the "Allows" tab. Why would compass only speed up ships? In real life, compass is used for orientation, so here it could give a bonus to explorers and maybe a slight speed bonus to all units. There are many more things like this.

(Note: I haven't ever played Civilization. It looks that the effects are mostly directly copied from it, but some things just don't make sense).

Commander Keen wrote:

Wow, pretty massive and that's just to the compass. However, many things seem just strange, mainly in the "Allows" tab. Why would compass only speed up ships? In real life, compass is used for orientation, so here it could give a bonus to explorers and maybe a slight speed bonus to all units. There are many more things like this.

(Note: I haven't ever played Civilization. It looks that the effects are mostly directly copied from it, but some things just don't make sense).

Yeah, everything was pretty much directly copied. I find it's better to copy it straight, and then review it with fresh eyes later. You think compass should speed up all units? Because it can easily be changed, and i think it makes sense. Or should it speed up all units that are a not close to an SC?

This is a working list, remember. I want your honest opinion on what doesn't make sense, because a lot of the time i don't see it. So a list would be nice Keen. Just write some notes down as you read the list and post them here. I would love for people to tell me to change things. Please don't hesitate to do so.

EDIT: Oh, and Keen, i was wondering what you meant by Explorers. Because with the SC concept, it would just be a light military unit with some gear to traverse better through hard terrain... I will have to think about explorers and adventurers, because they're necessary and under-discussed.

I'll read it as I go along...

Page 2 - Why does animal husbandry need agriculture and hunting? Why are either of those needed? Doesn't make sense to me. And trade needs animal husbandry too? Can't people walk? And what if your organism is a sentient horse? Ah, animal riding, check my last sentence.

Page 3 - Why does writing need trade or priesthood?

Page 4 - What is the difference between writing and alphabet?

Page 5 - World size can be calculated... Maybe you can move the camera where you can't see but it is foggy/black? You know something is there, but not what. I don't think laws always need a monarch, couldn't a government make them without one? Again for city planning. Not sure why athletics needs military training, wouldn't military training need athletics? Breeding needs military training too? Why? Drama shouldn't need combat sports. Monarchy/Government should be needed for arranging the construction of canals. Weather change warning could make an alert when it will start raining, when a hurricane will hit, etc..

Page 7 - I think engineering should need mathematics.

They are my thoughts for improvements as I read it. Well done at doing all that though...

The Uteen wrote:

I'll read it as I go along...

Page 2 - Why does animal husbandry need agriculture and hunting? Why are either of those needed? Doesn't make sense to me. And trade needs animal husbandry too? Can't people walk? And what if your organism is a sentient horse? Ah, animal riding, check my last sentence.

Page 3 - Why does writing need trade or priesthood?

Page 4 - What is the difference between writing and alphabet?

Page 5 - World size can be calculated... Maybe you can move the camera where you can't see but it is foggy/black? You know something is there, but not what. I don't think laws always need a monarch, couldn't a government make them without one? Again for city planning. Not sure why athletics needs military training, wouldn't military training need athletics? Breeding needs military training too? Why? Drama shouldn't need combat sports. Monarchy/Government should be needed for arranging the construction of canals. Weather change warning could make an alert when it will start raining, when a hurricane will hit, etc..

Page 7 - I think engineering should need mathematics.

They are my thoughts as I read it. Well done at doing all that though...

Animal Husbandry - Maybe it should be or, but you'll need some experience with either domesticating organisms (agriculture) or experience with animals (hunting). I don't think it's feasible that an alien species could all of a sudden choose to domesticate creatures without any experience in the area.

Trade - Good point, that was just mindlessly copied from the Civ Tree. I'll change it to OR, i think. Because then it could be that they trade things in containers or trade domesticated creatures.

Animal Riding - No research has to be discovered by the player. If animal riding is not feasible, it won't be researched by your species. Simple as that. The only thing that animal riding leads to are more animal riding researches.

Writing - I'll admit i didn't think about this either, but i pose you this question in reply: Why else would a sapient species develop writing than for trade or religion?

Alphabet - Writing can be hieroglyphs or cuneiform that represent objects or actions, whereas an alphabet has symbols that represent sounds that together make up words that represent objects,actions, etc. An alphabet is much more effective at communicating ideas quickly, and is easier to learn than thousands of different pictograms.

Calendar - i was thinking the same thing, but that only solves the problem of how to display it. We also need to know how to actually order the world size to be calculated, maybe building two towers far enough away from each other will give the scientists the idea of world curvature or something...

Code of Laws - Mindless copying. Will fix.

City Planning - See above.

Athletics - Here on Earth, at least, athletics came from hunting and military practices. This is why military training leads to athletics. For instance, military training might require a vigorous running test to fitten up soldiers. This would lead to running events. I suppose it could evolve straight from hunting tactics, though... Maybe Military Training should just speed up Athletics?

Breeding - This was originally Horse Breeding, and i just mindlessly copied it. Will fix.

Drama - Completely right. Mindless copying. Will fix.

Monarchy - Aren't canals unlocked with City Planning? That would imply that there is somebody to plan it...

Weather Lore - Just a notification through J-Rod? Easy.

Engineering - Engineering needs Construction which needs Mathematics. Therefore to have it need Mathematics would be pointless.

Did i answer all your worries? Look out for the next update for the changes promised.

DOCUMENT HAS BEEN UPDATED. SEE ORIGINAL POST FOR LINK.

Still at the same point, but i've cleaned a lot of things up and i've tried to appease all the suggestion i've had so far. Enjoy! And criticise harshly!

US_of_Alaska wrote:

DOCUMENT HAS BEEN UPDATED. SEE ORIGINAL POST FOR LINK.

Still at the same point, but i've cleaned a lot of things up and i've tried to appease all the suggestion i've had so far. Enjoy! And criticise harshly!

Good, but I noticed one last thing. Currency says it needs metal casting (this sounds like mindless copying, too). Remember, on other planets, money could be pretty much anything, even: other organisms, dirt, string, teeth, bottled farts. Anything. Maths is vital. The other required research(es) will be dependant on what the player decides on the currency being.

The best solution I can see is every object programmed with a universal currency value, to stop leaves being worth more than gold. The player must decide on something rare enough to prevent the need of thousands of them to get a toothbrush, but common enough to not mean you need to get exactly 17 and a half atoms to get a toothbrush.

what was the major prob with the old tech tree?


when done you'll organize it like this?

Page 2:

-Sacrifice does nothing

Page 3:

-Why do you have to get Polytheism before Monotheism?
-Walls should be available before Masonry (palisade and dirt walls).
-Writing should not allow research specialists (should be handled by Philosophy). Writing should add a bonus to trading and social things and allow a nation to record it's history.

Page 4:

-Why do you have to get Polytheism before Monotheism? (again)
-State religion should be available after either Polytheism or Monotheism.
-Alphabet should add a bonus to nearly everything, not just science.
-Mathematics: the same as with Alphabet.
-Military Training should not require Alloys.
-Literature should add a bonus to happiness.
-Why should construction allow only Towers? Generally buildings should get a big bonus.

Page 5:

-Why does calendar need Sailing?
-Philosophy should enable research specialists.
-Siege Weapons should enable siege weaponry in general, not just catapult.
-Music should add a general bonus to happiness. Why it should enable cathedrals?
-Philosophy already needs Mathematics, so why does Weather Lore need it as well?

Page 6:

-Should not Machinery and Siege Weapons be swapped?
-Smithing needs an alternative requirement to Siege Weapons
-You mean Fire Control as firemen, not the military term, right?
-Engineering should add a bonus to all structures and more complex TOs, instead of adding specific structures.

Page 7:

-Architecture should add a bonus to all buildings + add happiness. I don't see why it should add Keep and Ballista Head.
-Paper (change name?) should add bonus to nearly everything, instead of just science.
-Cartography should add bonus to explorers and upgrade the minimap.
-Education should add a bonus to everything.
-Optics should enable binoculars.

Page 8:

-Algebra should add bonus to science also. It should also require Education or Architecture.

eumesmo wrote:

what was the major prob with the old tech tree?


when done you'll organize it like this?

Well other than it being easily identifiable as the tech tree form Civ IV, i actually felt that it was rather... small. Considering we need to flesh out this stage of the game as much as pre-sapience, i felt that we needed more researches. The number i'm aiming for will allow a player to progress through the ages at a leisurely rate, while still having researches that make a difference withing smaller timeframes. Basically, i want to elongate the game for people who want it elongated. Obviously people who aren't so interested in any certain part of the game will just have it on high speed settings so as to pass the time quickly.

And yes, i'd like to organise it into a tree once i am finished.

Commander Keen wrote:

Page 2:

-Sacrifice does nothing

Page 3:

-Why do you have to get Polytheism before Monotheism?
-Walls should be available before Masonry (palisade and dirt walls).
-Writing should not allow research specialists (should be handled by Philosophy). Writing should add a bonus to trading and social things and allow a nation to record it's history.

Page 4:

-Why do you have to get Polytheism before Monotheism? (again)
-State religion should be available after either Polytheism or Monotheism.
-Alphabet should add a bonus to nearly everything, not just science.
-Mathematics: the same as with Alphabet.
-Military Training should not require Alloys.
-Literature should add a bonus to happiness.
-Why should construction allow only Towers? Generally buildings should get a big bonus.

Page 5:

-Why does calendar need Sailing?
-Philosophy should enable research specialists.
-Siege Weapons should enable siege weaponry in general, not just catapult.
-Music should add a general bonus to happiness. Why it should enable cathedrals?
-Philosophy already needs Mathematics, so why does Weather Lore need it as well?

Page 6:

-Should not Machinery and Siege Weapons be swapped?
-Smithing needs an alternative requirement to Siege Weapons
-You mean Fire Control as firemen, not the military term, right?
-Engineering should add a bonus to all structures and more complex TOs, instead of adding specific structures.

Page 7:

-Architecture should add a bonus to all buildings + add happiness. I don't see why it should add Keep and Ballista Head.
-Paper (change name?) should add bonus to nearly everything, instead of just science.
-Cartography should add bonus to explorers and upgrade the minimap.
-Education should add a bonus to everything.
-Optics should enable binoculars.

Page 8:

-Algebra should add bonus to science also. It should also require Education or Architecture.

Belgium me, I hit the send button. Please wait until I add the rest.

Poly vs Monotheism - That's just kinda how it was, not necessarily how it should be. I guess there is no real rule, so i'll change it.
Masonry - True, but where shall i place it then?
Writing - I really believe that not allowing research specialists until philosophy is a terribly long wait. And what would you call scribes and the like? Recording history is helpful to research, and this is my way of showing that.

State Religion - Point taken yet again. Will fix.
Alphabet - add a a bonus to what exactly? Science, happiness. I don't see why it would add to production, health or resource acquirement.
Mathematics - This makes more sense to add to production, resource acquirement and health. Maths does increase everything, i think. Will fix.
Military Training - Should it come straight from hunting, then? Because it would be incorrect to say that it is derived from any material research, so to speak. Maybe it requires hunting tools and is sped up by the metals researches?
Literature - adds happiness? Brilliant! I've been wondering about a bonus for it. Thankyou.
Construction - All buildings increase strength, you think? And do you have any other (non-terra-centric) buildings you'd like to suggest?

Calendar - Calendar needs sailing because of, well, i guess the stars and navigation and stuff. Not sure. I might change it to sped up by Sailing.
Philosophy - Explained my view here when i addressed writing
Siege Weapons - this research does allow the 'siege weapon' tag in the Tech Editor, and a premade Siege Weapon TO for players who don't want to make them. I meant to write that. Willfix. It's just that the only Function Part it unlocks is a catapult mechanism. The player can make anything out of this that they wish. What other siege mechanism do you propose be unlocked by this research?
Music - truthfully, i only copied this cathedral idea because i had nothing else to fill in the music research with. If you think it should add happiness, add happiness it does!
Weather Lore - didn't see that. Willfix.

Machinery - Siege Weapons is for catapults. Catapults don't really use machinery as such. Just a bent plank that acts as a spring.
Smithing - I thought this as i wrote it up, but didn't remember to go back and look for alternatives. Will search and update.
Fire Control - There is a military term like this? Maybe i should change the name to Fire Brigades...
Engineering - Actually, that sounds reasonable. Was getting too civ-minded here. Thanks for pointing this out. But, um, do you mean more complex TOs as in allows more complex TOs? Because i'm not sure exactly how the editor would calculate that... Maybe just a 'how many pieces' check...

Architecture - Perfectly reasonable. Mindless copying. Will fix.
Paper - I think as long as we point out that we don't mean paper from wood especially, we should be okay. Bonus to everything except health sounds reasonable.
Cartography - Adding movement bonuses to explorers has been included in the latest document... I like the idea of upgrading the minimap. Will add.
Education should add a bonus to everything, quite right. Willfix.
Binoculars - by definition this means two occulars. Maybe a more generic name is needed for more or less eyed creatures?

Algebra - Quite Right. Willfix.

EDIT:
Sorry, i got cartography and Compass confused. I don't believe that there should be a bonus given to explorers unless if they are in already explored territory, maybe.

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Masonry - True, but where shall i place it then?
- Maybe add a very early Fortifications research?

Siege Weapons - this research does allow the 'siege weapon' tag in the Tech Editor, and a premade Siege Weapon TO for players who don't want to make them. It's just that the only Function Part it unlocks is a catapult mechanism. The player can make anything out of this that they wish. What other siege mechanism do you propose be unlocked by this research?
- Ballistas, battering rams

Machinery - Siege Weapons is for catapults. Catapults don't really use machinery as such. Just a bent plank that acts as a spring.
- Again, what about ballistas and battering rams (and siege towers)? There can be a really large amount of siege weapons used by other cultures...

Engineering - Actually, that sounds reasonable. Was getting too civ-minded here. Thanks for pointing this out. But, um, do you mean more complex TOs as in allows more complex TOs? Because i'm not sure exactly how the editor would calculate that... Maybe just a 'how many pieces' check...
- Maybe that more complex TOs would be very ineffective resource-wise and practically allowed by this research?

Binoculars - by definition this means two occulars. Maybe a more generic name is needed for more or less eyed creatures?
- I could not find any better term. If you have any, put it in!

Sorry, i got cartography and Compass confused. I don't believe that there should be a bonus given to explorers unless if they are in already explored territory, maybe.
- Maybe not a movement bonus, but one that allows them to draw a bigger area to the map?

Also about explorers, I think they should be any units that get an "Explore" command. They could be sea, ground or air units, single individuals or large expeditions, it's all players choice.

Commander Keen wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Masonry - True, but where shall i place it then?
- Maybe add a very early Fortifications research?

Siege Weapons - this research does allow the 'siege weapon' tag in the Tech Editor, and a premade Siege Weapon TO for players who don't want to make them. It's just that the only Function Part it unlocks is a catapult mechanism. The player can make anything out of this that they wish. What other siege mechanism do you propose be unlocked by this research?
- Ballistas, battering rams

Machinery - Siege Weapons is for catapults. Catapults don't really use machinery as such. Just a bent plank that acts as a spring.
- Again, what about ballistas and battering rams (and siege towers)? There can be a really large amount of siege weapons used by other cultures...

Engineering - Actually, that sounds reasonable. Was getting too civ-minded here. Thanks for pointing this out. But, um, do you mean more complex TOs as in allows more complex TOs? Because i'm not sure exactly how the editor would calculate that... Maybe just a 'how many pieces' check...
- Maybe that more complex TOs would be very ineffective resource-wise and practically allowed by this research?

Binoculars - by definition this means two occulars. Maybe a more generic name is needed for more or less eyed creatures?
- I could not find any better term. If you have any, put it in!

Sorry, i got cartography and Compass confused. I don't believe that there should be a bonus given to explorers unless if they are in already explored territory, maybe.
- Maybe not a movement bonus, but one that allows them to draw a bigger area to the map?

Also about explorers, I think they should be any units that get an "Explore" command. They could be sea, ground or air units, single individuals or large expeditions, it's all players choice.

Fortifications early on sounds good. Willfix.

Will a ballista mechanism and a ram swing cover everything else you can think of?

I still don't believe that what these early siege weapons use can be classed as machinery. Siege Weapons lead to real machines.

So a discount on the Complexity cost... Alright.

How about oculars? This could mean any number of ocular lenses.

How about being able to permanently record their travels? No memory fade on the minimap if an explorer with cartography has explored it?

And i think that explorers should be designated through a tag in the Tech Editor, and have a specific Function Part that allows them to be Explorers.

NEW VERSION OF DOCUMENT IS UP. INCLUDES ALL SUGGESTED FIXES I MENTIONED (hopefully). SEE OP FOR LINK.

Wow, I am really impressed with this guys.

Commander Keen wrote:

US_of_Alaska wrote:

Will a ballista mechanism and a ram swing cover everything else you can think of?
- Yes, but I'm not very creative in this aspect..

I still don't believe that what these early siege weapons use can be classed as machinery. Siege Weapons lead to real machines.
- Ok, leave it then

How about oculars? This could mean any number of ocular lenses.
- Sounds good, if it doesn't cover any other thing then I'm all for it

How about being able to permanently record their travels? No memory fade on the minimap if an explorer with cartography has explored it?
- Great idea!

And i think that explorers should be designated through a tag in the Tech Editor, and have a specific Function Part that allows them to be Explorers.
- Every unit should be allowed to explore, in TE you could give the unit better equipment for it (supplies etc.). An infantry platoon would ofcourse explore worse than dedicated group of explorers, but in desperacy or when sending the unit into a dangerous area it could be worth it.

Hmmm... Any unit can of course be given the order to move into unexplored territory, but units that are equipped for exploration will have bonuses for terrain movement and after cartography will be able to commit the minimap permanently. So yes, i guess you're right. Any unit can explore, but not will explorers.

Why does sailing require fishing or weaving? They can row their boats, and they don't have to fish while they're at sea.

InvaderZim wrote:

Why does sailing require fishing or weaving? They can row their boats, and they don't have to fish while they're at sea.

Sailing as in sails? You can't sail with oars. Cloth is needed, and weaving allows cloth to be made into clothes, etc. Sailing is a logical progression of fishing. Why else would you be at sea? Although i can understand that it would be hard for an herbivorous species to get to sailing if it requires fishing... Maybe an herbivorous path is needed to get to sailing? Suggestions for this would be welcome.

What about Herbivores collecting Seaweed?

GamerXA wrote:

What about Herbivores collecting Seaweed?

Do you think that would fall under the research of fishing? Or does it need a separate one?

I suppose fishing can be done using a net, and collecting seaweed would use the same method I suppose. Maybe.

GamerXA wrote:

I suppose fishing can be done using a net, and collecting seaweed would use the same method I suppose. Maybe.

More ambiguous name needed, maybe?

I think so. Maybe, "Seabound Collecting"...

GamerXA wrote:

I think so. Maybe, "Seabound Collecting"...

But it isn't restricted to the sea. You can fish and collect seaweed from rivers and lakes, too.