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| Religion and Society | |
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+3~sciocont Theusfilipe Tenebrarum 7 posters | Author | Message |
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Tenebrarum Society Team Lead
Posts : 1179 Reputation : 32 Join date : 2010-10-01 Age : 31 Location : ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
| Subject: Religion and Society Wed May 09, 2012 6:23 pm | |
| First I would like to apologize for my paltry attendence as of late. As an apology, here's some junk on the deliciously controversial subject of religion. - Spoiler:
I recently found a rather brilliant translation of the Ninmesara, A.K.A. Enheduanna's 49 meditations on the nature of Inanna, A.K.A. the world's oldest piece of feminist literature, A.K.A. the oldest piece of literature to have the author sign it. Besides merely being a powerful, emotional read (even after 4 millenia), it also succeded in making me think long and hard about the changing nature of religion over time.
You see, Enheduanna's discussion of her relationship with the goddess Inanna resembles medieval european theology to me more than it does ancient theology.
Ancient theology springs from the need to be able to understand the world and cope with existance. The Gods act as scapegoats for the people, wreaking havok on the people or providing them with victory when none was seen as possible. This is the form of theology that often makes modern critics of religion angry, as it sounds markedly like blind dismissal of reality in favor of superstition, but one must understand the absolute imperative nature of religion to fully appriciate it's effect on history.
This form of religion doesn't just explain the universe, it provides people with a means of affecting it. Through prayer to the Gods and sacrifice, Gods become interested in the afairs of humans and will listen to them. Gods can even make specific demands, form contracts with humans, or even be tricked or killed. By providing a universe that is not only understandable but also mutable, sentient beings can avoid the nigh inevitable madness that is brought on by complete and utter helplessness.
On the political side of things, religions provide organization and unquestionable laws of morality, both of which make governance easier. If someone is believed to have earned the favor of a particularly powerful God, the laws of altered perception almost garuntee that said induvidual will have a better chance of influencing other people, factions, and organizations, and may even increase productivity or chances of victory on the battlefield (again, thanks to the laws of altered perception).
In Europe and the Middle East, the transition from this theology to the next is easy to trace. The mystery cults of the Roman Empire and later the spread of Christianity and Zoroastrianism (Judiasm largely stayed put in terms of size) show an increasing reliance on a new and radically different form of Theology. Medieval theology relies on the direct relationship between God and you as its core, rather than hyts relationship with your race or nation.
The effect on society is radical. Science often becomes significantly more popular as the pretence of mythology peels away. The shift of focus from Gods giving favor to Gods caring for people in a personal manner often fosters strong communities, general unity, and increased charity. However, this view also provides a prevailing sense of striving. The personal relationship with God can go awry just as easily as human relationships can, and the effect of this can be quite dramatic. Jihad begin to pop up for the first time. While previously most, if not all, wars were waged in the name of one God or other, the characteristics of unwavering obsession across multiple layers of society, all working toward a common goal. I say Jihad, as while war is the clearest example, these events can really be most any struggle. Colonization, construction, or research can all be society-wide obsessions.
The reason the Ninmesara shocked me was this reliance on Medieval theological tropes rather than Ancient ones. Even if you're reading the wrong traditional translation of it, the powerful, personal nature of the piece shines through. To Enheduanna, Inanna is a mystery and a best friend and a sister all at once. She is not an outside and uncaring force, but a deeply meaningful and compassionate entity. This means that my previous understanding of religion as progressing as science and technology does is completely wrong. I need to think about this.
I'm running out of steam at the moment, but I promise to add discussion on reformation and modern theology before long.
Last edited by Tenebrarum on Wed May 09, 2012 9:01 pm; edited 2 times in total | |
| | | Theusfilipe Newcomer
Posts : 48 Reputation : 3 Join date : 2012-05-02 Location : Brazil, Rio
| Subject: Re: Religion and Society Wed May 09, 2012 8:11 pm | |
| Wow after that I think I should think about it too... I will edit some posts about religion on the society thread. I sense I only scratched a bit on that reply. Thanks Tenebrarum. | |
| | | ~sciocont Overall Team Lead
Posts : 3406 Reputation : 138 Join date : 2010-07-06
| Subject: Re: Religion and Society Wed May 09, 2012 10:32 pm | |
| This is all, to my knowledge, completely correct. Religion has a definite evolution, and righ now lots of religions are entering a new phase, where threats to the integrity of the religion or questions over the existence of gods/deities are driving people towards the ends of the spectrum- the more religiously zealous are becoming increasingly so, whereas the less inclined are ditching it altogether or simply leaving organized religion as a whole. This is also a point at which the relentless progress of science chips away at the perceived physical influence of gods-"god of the gaps" as it's popularly known. I think religious evolution could be very important to the game, and it might be advantageous for the player to control a religious leader instead of a national leader at some times, since their religion can cross boundaries of nation. | |
| | | PTFace Learner
Posts : 139 Reputation : 7 Join date : 2012-04-24
| Subject: Re: Religion and Society Thu May 10, 2012 1:38 am | |
| now i know this idea sounds crazy, but what if your government type was a theocracy, and the game would randomly allow for deities to show up. being a theocracy would increase civil order, and discovering a deity would give your society massive bonuses while finding out their is no one watching your species would lead to massive revolts | |
| | | Kraeken Newcomer
Posts : 18 Reputation : 1 Join date : 2012-04-27
| Subject: Re: Religion and Society Thu May 10, 2012 1:51 am | |
| If we start throwing deities into scripting this is going to get real complicated REAL fast. What is a deity and to what extent is its power, based on what and where and where does this deity stand in relation to other deities since they might exist wherever someone believes in them, heck they might just gain mana and send warriors and giant physical manifestations at one another..... Oh wait... That's the game Black and White. If we get into the supernatural we are seriously deviating from simple and scientific. Everything from souls to hell to why the universe exists will have to be fought on this slippery slope. Or we could create something more on the way of a game where you control a species having a hard enoug time without supernatural forces that will be perceived as glitches. If the player gets existential, there is some mystery in the basic concept of Thrive like how does the player control this species and why did all the things in the simulated universe happen, but it should be left at that: the players pondering imagination. It IS possible to script a group of organisms beleiving something. It is NOT possible (or at least plausible) to script that which, by definition, defies explanation or understanding. | |
| | | Tenebrarum Society Team Lead
Posts : 1179 Reputation : 32 Join date : 2010-10-01 Age : 31 Location : ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
| Subject: Re: Religion and Society Thu May 10, 2012 6:22 am | |
| - ~sciocont wrote:
- This is all, to my knowledge, completely correct. Religion has a definite evolution, and righ now lots of religions are entering a new phase, where threats to the integrity of the religion or questions over the existence of gods/deities are driving people towards the ends of the spectrum- the more religiously zealous are becoming increasingly so, whereas the less inclined are ditching it altogether or simply leaving organized religion as a whole. This is also a point at which the relentless progress of science chips away at the perceived physical influence of gods-"god of the gaps" as it's popularly known. I think religious evolution could be very important to the game, and it might be advantageous for the player to control a religious leader instead of a national leader at some times, since their religion can cross boundaries of nation.
I'd be hesitant to say that. The universe is infinite, and as long as there is a source, we will demand a source for that source. Ad infinitum. Besides, most of the time religion and science are asking two different questions: science asks how, where religion asks why. P.S. NO DIETIES. This is final. If they do show up, if will ONLY be as a little easter egg, perhaps like hearing someone say "Wake up!" upon acheiving sentience. NO MORE. | |
| | | Doggit Regular
Posts : 444 Reputation : 36 Join date : 2012-04-28
| Subject: Re: Religion and Society Thu May 10, 2012 8:20 am | |
| A question:
You could create a godless civilization that is based solely on scientific and technological progress? | |
| | | Tenebrarum Society Team Lead
Posts : 1179 Reputation : 32 Join date : 2010-10-01 Age : 31 Location : ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
| Subject: Re: Religion and Society Thu May 10, 2012 3:15 pm | |
| - Doggit wrote:
- A question:
You could create a godless civilization that is based solely on scientific and technological progress? No. Perhaps eventually an entirely atheist society can be formed, but not right off the bat. You have to at least get to a point where mythology is no longer necessary, and even then people will desire some form of spiritual fufillment. Religion does not have to be what fills this role, but is likely to be the logical conclusion of any organized spirituality. The same forces that drive us to science also drive us to religion. Curiosity just works like that. | |
| | | Doggit Regular
Posts : 444 Reputation : 36 Join date : 2012-04-28
| Subject: Re: Religion and Society Thu May 10, 2012 3:44 pm | |
| - Tenebrarum wrote:
- Doggit wrote:
- A question:
You could create a godless civilization that is based solely on scientific and technological progress? No. Perhaps eventually an entirely atheist society can be formed, but not right off the bat. You have to at least get to a point where mythology is no longer necessary, and even then people will desire some form of spiritual fufillment. Religion does not have to be what fills this role, but is likely to be the logical conclusion of any organized spirituality.
The same forces that drive us to science also drive us to religion. Curiosity just works like that. In a tribal culture is normal to expect people to believe in one or more gods, but it is also necessary in an industrial civilization, or a space civilization? Religion is not necessary. | |
| | | Tenebrarum Society Team Lead
Posts : 1179 Reputation : 32 Join date : 2010-10-01 Age : 31 Location : ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
| Subject: Re: Religion and Society Thu May 10, 2012 3:55 pm | |
| - Doggit wrote:
In a tribal culture is normal to expect people to believe in one or more gods, but it is also necessary in an industrial civilization, or a space civilization? Religion is not necessary. Necessary does not really come into it. It's a question of likelyhood. You can make a government that heavily supresses religion, but spirituality will always exist in some form or other, and religion is, as I said, the logical conclusion of most (if not all) organized spirituality. As long as there are people asking why, there will be religion. | |
| | | Mysterious_Calligrapher Biome Team Lead
Posts : 1034 Reputation : 26 Join date : 2010-11-26 Age : 32 Location : Earth, the solar system, the milky way...
| Subject: Re: Religion and Society Thu May 10, 2012 8:13 pm | |
| First post: Rex, you're a belgiumming genius.
Everybody else: since part of sentience is awareness of death, and the other part is communicating abstract ideas, at the very least rudmentary (I hesitate to call it primitive) animistic religion is as likely as we can reasonably postulate to develop somewhere in a society, even one that is essentially a family with a campfire. At the very least, there will be legends and myths, which we're lumping under religion for now, because they serve similar functions. They provide an organism faced with the implacable natural world an alternative to helplessness and despair: a way to understand the world and potentially influence it.
Of course, there's likely to be as many religions as there are people willing to puzzle out the universe, and atheism will of course be possible. Technically, though, Religion is two things: belief and ritual. Rituals will develop out of necessity and be vital to group cohesion and the process of socialization. We will be dealing almost exclusively with Ritual, as it's the editable bit, and belief occurs only in the individual mind.
Forgive me for the technicalities, I just finished my second semester of ancient religions. | |
| | | Tenebrarum Society Team Lead
Posts : 1179 Reputation : 32 Join date : 2010-10-01 Age : 31 Location : ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
| Subject: Re: Religion and Society Thu May 10, 2012 8:27 pm | |
| - Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
- First post: Rex, you're a belgiumming genius.
- Spoiler:
- Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
- Of course, there's likely to be as many religions as there are people willing to puzzle out the universe, and atheism will of course be possible. Technically, though, Religion is two things: belief and ritual. Rituals will develop out of necessity and be vital to group cohesion and the process of socialization. We will be dealing almost exclusively with Ritual, as it's the editable bit, and belief occurs only in the individual mind.
Forgive me for the technicalities, I just finished my second semester of ancient religions. THIS. THIS RIGHT HERE. Religion is not about providing an alternative to science. Religion is about coming to terms with the nature of the universe. | |
| | | ~sciocont Overall Team Lead
Posts : 3406 Reputation : 138 Join date : 2010-07-06
| Subject: Re: Religion and Society Thu May 10, 2012 10:07 pm | |
| Religion is almost always going to be there in some form, but it does definitely change its purpose over time. That change from concrete to spiritual purpose is what we need to pay attention to and model. | |
| | | Mysterious_Calligrapher Biome Team Lead
Posts : 1034 Reputation : 26 Join date : 2010-11-26 Age : 32 Location : Earth, the solar system, the milky way...
| Subject: Re: Religion and Society Fri May 11, 2012 3:24 pm | |
| - ~sciocont wrote:
- Religion is almost always going to be there in some form, but it does definitely change its purpose over time. That change from concrete to spiritual purpose is what we need to pay attention to and model.
And now we can start figuring out the changes in socia function. Group cohesion is always a big part of it, but as non-religious groups grow, it tends to be less all-encompassing. | |
| | | PTFace Learner
Posts : 139 Reputation : 7 Join date : 2012-04-24
| Subject: Re: Religion and Society Fri May 11, 2012 10:24 pm | |
| Will there be crusaders or religious wars? Will similar civilizations with similar religions be allies in these wars? | |
| | | Mysterious_Calligrapher Biome Team Lead
Posts : 1034 Reputation : 26 Join date : 2010-11-26 Age : 32 Location : Earth, the solar system, the milky way...
| Subject: Re: Religion and Society Fri May 11, 2012 11:05 pm | |
| That sounds feasible. Two reasons for wars inspired by religion: the first is that two "nations" with opposed (state supported) religions and overall a lot of tension could go to war, the second that one "nation" holds an arbitrarily designated "religious location of item" that the other one wants. Both require religion to be fairly involved with the government and to have a lot of power over the citizens. | |
| | | PTFace Learner
Posts : 139 Reputation : 7 Join date : 2012-04-24
| Subject: Re: Religion and Society Fri May 11, 2012 11:07 pm | |
| Well if you look at the medieval ages religion was a way to gain prestige as a king, so i think it would be very common in a tribal type stage. Also will there be a religious leadership role, such as the Papacy in Europa Universallis III? | |
| | | Mysterious_Calligrapher Biome Team Lead
Posts : 1034 Reputation : 26 Join date : 2010-11-26 Age : 32 Location : Earth, the solar system, the milky way...
| Subject: Re: Religion and Society Fri May 11, 2012 11:20 pm | |
| Posssible but probably shouldn't be required. In some cases, where you have a high correlation between government and relition, you'll have head of religion and head of state as the same position. | |
| | | PTFace Learner
Posts : 139 Reputation : 7 Join date : 2012-04-24
| Subject: Re: Religion and Society Fri May 11, 2012 11:26 pm | |
| I'm sorry but I don't think you understand.
In games developed by Paradox Interactive, there is usually a head of religion that is a separate country and has special powers.
Like in Crusader Kings 2, the Papacy has the ability to excommunicate and call crusaders, and in EUIII it includes a cardinal system where certain countries can take over the Papacy.
I think it would be interesting to see society develop a pagan religion, and each god gets representation by a certain city-state, and a city-state can control more than 1. So if the religion has 5 gods and 1 city controls 3, the leader of that city is the leader of the religion as well.
Think Holy Roman Empire. | |
| | | Mysterious_Calligrapher Biome Team Lead
Posts : 1034 Reputation : 26 Join date : 2010-11-26 Age : 32 Location : Earth, the solar system, the milky way...
| Subject: Re: Religion and Society Sat May 12, 2012 1:13 pm | |
| - PTFace wrote:
- I'm sorry but I don't think you understand.
In games developed by Paradox Interactive, there is usually a head of religion that is a separate country and has special powers.
Like in Crusader Kings 2, the Papacy has the ability to excommunicate and call crusaders, and in EUIII it includes a cardinal system where certain countries can take over the Papacy.
I think it would be interesting to see society develop a pagan religion, and each god gets representation by a certain city-state, and a city-state can control more than 1. So if the religion has 5 gods and 1 city controls 3, the leader of that city is the leader of the religion as well.
Think Holy Roman Empire. Ah, okay. Your second idea is something like the Greek city states, where many gods were worshipped but each city had a "patron diety." However, in the real Greek city states, worship of a city's patron diety in another city was not influenced by the city that they patronized. I'm just pointing out that we don't want to hardcode that there has to be a head of religion, or that religion has to be involved in government. We want to have a wide variety of options open for civ stage, because it's going to last a while. (I meant 'not the only option we should put in' not 'unnecessary to have in the game' by unnecessary.) | |
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