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 Multicellular...

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Slathazer
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PostSubject: Multicellular...   Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:51 pm

How do we make the jump from single cell to multi-cellular? How can it be done without cutscenes/level progression? (sorry if this is already posted somewhere)
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US_of_Alaska
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:40 am

Slathazer wrote:
How do we make the jump from single cell to multi-cellular? How can it be done without cutscenes/level progression? (sorry if this is already posted somewhere)
I'm not sure if it has been on these forums. But i think basically the plan is that once enough cells bind together for them to specialize (eg, skin cells, digestive cells) then you will be classed as multicellular and the camera will change to behind your creature.
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:24 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:
Slathazer wrote:
How do we make the jump from single cell to multi-cellular? How can it be done without cutscenes/level progression? (sorry if this is already posted somewhere)
I'm not sure if it has been on these forums. But i think basically the plan is that once enough cells bind together for them to specialize (eg, skin cells, digestive cells) then you will be classed as multicellular and the camera will change to behind your creature.

Won't the camera jump be a bit confusing and disorienting to the player? It seems quite like a sharp stage division, which we are trying to avoid.
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US_of_Alaska
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:45 pm

Xenopologist wrote:
US_of_Alaska wrote:
Slathazer wrote:
How do we make the jump from single cell to multi-cellular? How can it be done without cutscenes/level progression? (sorry if this is already posted somewhere)
I'm not sure if it has been on these forums. But i think basically the plan is that once enough cells bind together for them to specialize (eg, skin cells, digestive cells) then you will be classed as multicellular and the camera will change to behind your creature.

Won't the camera jump be a bit confusing and disorienting to the player? It seems quite like a sharp stage division, which we are trying to avoid.
There is no way to go from a 2d play axis to 3d one without a sharp transition. That's unfortunately the bottom line. This has been a problem for a long, long time and i think it will remain one for equally as long.
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:26 pm

Also there's the jump between one cell to two cells... that will be a large transition also... once a few hundred cells are created, there would be no need for single-cell manipulation, but a simple "organ blob" brush to form general organ centers. at about how large will it switch to 3d? (a millimeter maybe?
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:44 pm

Slathazer wrote:
Also there's the jump between one cell to two cells... that will be a large transition also... once a few hundred cells are created, there would be no need for single-cell manipulation, but a simple "organ blob" brush to form general organ centers. at about how large will it switch to 3d? (a millimeter maybe?
I'm not so hot on the science stuff, so i don't know how big is big enough.
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Xenopologist
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:50 pm

There are fairly complex organisms on the microscopic scale, if I'm not mistaken. I've got no exact statistics, but "bigger than a hundred cells" is still very small.

Also: will cells in Thrive be locked into a human-cell scale? There are organism concepts out there that involve much larger or smaller cells than we see on Earth, and even here there is a wide cell size range.
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:54 pm

Xenopologist wrote:
There are fairly complex organisms on the microscopic scale, if I'm not mistaken. I've got no exact statistics, but "bigger than a hundred cells" is still very small.

Also: will cells in Thrive be locked into a human-cell scale? There are organism concepts out there that involve much larger or smaller cells than we see on Earth, and even here there is a wide cell size range.
I guess there can be both. Some cells may evolve to be big, others may evolve to be numerous, and others may evolve to bind together into multicellular creatures.
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:11 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:
Xenopologist wrote:
There are fairly complex organisms on the microscopic scale, if I'm not mistaken. I've got no exact statistics, but "bigger than a hundred cells" is still very small.

Also: will cells in Thrive be locked into a human-cell scale? There are organism concepts out there that involve much larger or smaller cells than we see on Earth, and even here there is a wide cell size range.
I guess there can be both. Some cells may evolve to be big, others may evolve to be numerous, and others may evolve to bind together into multicellular creatures.
Cell don't evolve to be big. They take in neccicary materials through their membrane. If they grow to large, the internal area grows exponentially and they can't keep a rapid enough exchange.
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:34 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
US_of_Alaska wrote:
Xenopologist wrote:
There are fairly complex organisms on the microscopic scale, if I'm not mistaken. I've got no exact statistics, but "bigger than a hundred cells" is still very small.

Also: will cells in Thrive be locked into a human-cell scale? There are organism concepts out there that involve much larger or smaller cells than we see on Earth, and even here there is a wide cell size range.
I guess there can be both. Some cells may evolve to be big, others may evolve to be numerous, and others may evolve to bind together into multicellular creatures.
Cell don't evolve to be big. They take in neccicary materials through their membrane. If they grow to large, the internal area grows exponentially and they can't keep a rapid enough exchange.
Well then why are there big cells? As compared to other cells, i mean. Not big as in elephant big.
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Xenopologist
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:45 pm

There are comparatively large cells, but it's true that cell size is capped by this problem. However, on other planets, alternate biochemistry systems may apply. Are we using only carbon-based biochemistries in this game, or are we entertaining alternatives?
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:56 pm

Xenopologist wrote:
There are comparatively large cells, but it's true that cell size is capped by this problem. However, on other planets, alternate biochemistry systems may apply. Are we using only carbon-based biochemistries in this game, or are we entertaining alternatives?
I think for at least the original release, we need to keep it limited to carbon based.
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Slathazer
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:57 am

US_of_Alaska wrote:
Xenopologist wrote:
There are comparatively large cells, but it's true that cell size is capped by this problem. However, on other planets, alternate biochemistry systems may apply. Are we using only carbon-based biochemistries in this game, or are we entertaining alternatives?
I think for at least the original release, we need to keep it limited to carbon based.

agreed
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MitochondriaBox
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:07 am

Slathazer wrote:
US_of_Alaska wrote:
Xenopologist wrote:
There are comparatively large cells, but it's true that cell size is capped by this problem. However, on other planets, alternate biochemistry systems may apply. Are we using only carbon-based biochemistries in this game, or are we entertaining alternatives?
I think for at least the original release, we need to keep it limited to carbon based.

agreed

Actually, there are macroscopic cells called xenophyophores. They don't all look the same, and can move through the sea floor to find food. A species of them can grow up to 20 cm!

However, gameplay as them wouldn't really be fun, since the odds of you reaching the multicellular stage with many cells and leaving any survivors is low. You'd be too large for there to be much space for you, not to mention fragile. By the time you constitute enough cells to begin specialization, and evolve lungs or something, you'd be tall as a frikkin' skyscraper, man! And don't ask me about getting to the awakening or society stage, you'd be too tall to pick up a rock and scrape it on another rock to start a fire. Just tear a mountain in two, buddy. Then again, you'd need extreme muscle mass and tallness for that, and, good job, you just evolved it, and now you can't even breathe. Good day to you! I've (never) always wanted to stick my head into space while standing on Earth.

Even if your head was on your chest, the upper part of your body would quickly die in the vacuum of space. I suggest you fall over to survive, but you probably just smashed a tribe of a more successful species that doesn't need to use a mountain peak as a flint.
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TropicalMammoth
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:59 pm

Well, what if there was a universal currency, kinda like the DNA mechanic in spore. We'll call this energy for convenience's sake.

Cellular reproduction is a biologically tiring task, so perhaps we can provide players the option to self-replicate once they gain enough energy that hasn't been expended on other tasks (such as self defense). Not only does this eliminate the possibility of the dreaded grind, but also introduces completely unique thoughts for the player such as.

"Well, I REALLY need to replicate soon so that I can advance soon, but this cell over there is following me and might try to eat me..."

Just a thought.
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:31 pm

First of all This thread is over 3 years old. Secondly MitochondriaBox, Large creatures probably won't exist that are that big. No. Cut the probably it's impossible. Too impractical not enough energy etc etc. UNLESS.. Your planet is MASSIVE as in 5000x bigger than earth, Even then it's still quite impractical.

Third Trop. Mammoth. A universial currency is unrealistic, Check out some of the threads on energy systems. They will be quite complex featuring O2 Sunlight, Protein and a bunch of other stuff. I know you can set what you use for fuel. Don't quote me on this but I THINK I repeat, I THINK you can make how your system works. Ex. O2->salt.
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MitochondriaBox
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:31 pm

nziswat wrote:
First of all This thread is over 3 years old. Secondly MitochondriaBox, Large creatures probably won't exist that are that big. No. Cut the probably it's impossible. Too impractical not enough energy etc etc. UNLESS.. Your planet is MASSIVE as in 5000x bigger than earth, Even then it's still quite impractical.

Third Trop. Mammoth. A universial currency is unrealistic, Check out some of the threads on energy systems. They will be quite complex featuring O2 Sunlight, Protein and a bunch of other stuff. I know you can set what you use for fuel. Don't quote me on this but I THINK I repeat, I THINK you can make how your system works. Ex. O2->salt.

I heard that there's going to be a "budget", not a currency, that is expended based on the things you add or remove from your organism while evolving. This budget is made to limit the number of changes and the intensity of those changes in an evolutionary transition (edit). If that budget wasn't there, then we'd have the ability to evolve our species from a pterodactyl to a snail, reindeer, and then a termite in a few million years, since there'd be no limitations on how your species is edited in a single, well, edit.

Also, I was answering a question that wasn't given a 100% true answer. They said that cells couldn't grow to be beyond microscopic, but there are xenophyophores that can grow up to 20 cm. In fact, we could use that information later on when we're revising the microbe stage during development in other stages to include macroscopic cells. Unfortunately, that brings up the problem of cells in the aware stage, so we could only include cells that are above a certain size. Remember Spore (I hope I'm not breaking any copyright laws simply mentioning it), where "cells" that were under half the size of your "cell" disappear once you reach the next stage milestone? That's what I and perhaps a few before me were thinking of.
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:58 pm

I believe this "budget" you are speaking of is 10% change to any value, and I'm not sure how many values.

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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:22 pm

I'm quite sure 10% won't be the final number, but the idea is that one.

However, that doesen't relato too much with proteins, lipids O2 or anything else. That only matters for reproduction. the bigger and more complex something is, the harder it will be for it to reproduce. Once a cell has enough suplies to duplicate itself, it will do so. In multicelular, all that substances get simplified to one. It will probably be energy. That way we can track the energy the plants absorv from the sun,, then going to the hervivores, then to the carnivores, and to any other step on the chain. In order to have descendants, a creature must have enough surplus energy stored (also being female and having a suitable male around, if it matters for the reproduction thype of the species).
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:12 pm

I only suggested that a universal currency would greatly simplify the game for newcomers. Not everyone is a biologist, so we need to account for that.

Perhaps dividing the "universal currency" into several sub categories would be a better option.
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:25 am

Dividing the currency into sub-categories is a good idea, atleast in my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:01 am

What currency? Could you explain further?
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:19 pm

I think they mean a sort of universal currency for "buying" parts for your organism. However, although this would help to simplify the game, I think the added complexity from not having it is what we want.

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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:56 pm

NickTheNick wrote:
I think they mean a sort of universal currency for "buying" parts for your organism. However, although this would help to simplify the game, I think the added complexity from not having it is what we want.

IIRC (If I Recall Correctly), the budget would be a little bar that fills up as we edit the organism, essentially a complexity bar. When I brainstormed my own game (before I lost the inspiration), this would reset every time you opened up the editor. It would limit the intensity of your edits, and even removing a body part would fill the bar a little (you can't take all of your organism's parts off and make something completely different).

Say you have a very specialized organism. Suddenly, a meteorite strikes. You decide to evolve your creature to make it more adaptable, but you can't just turn your uteen/paliodont/whatever immediately into something less specialized. You'd have to make limited changes each generation. However, you're safe as long as you make the most crucial changes first.
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PostSubject: Re: Multicellular...   Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:19 pm

I think climate change should be optional before you start your game
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